Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 22:52:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #201 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: "Kali" Exposed (Talibung Antike) 2. KALI - the similarities (Bill Debuque) 3. Tuhon Gaje- Newport News VA 13/14 Sep (norris) 4. Re: Bowing in the FMA (B Katz) 5. Kali Again Thread! (jorge penafiel) 6. Re: Kali - again (tim) 7. Re: Re: Kali - again (Talibung Antike) 8. Re: Kali Again Thread! (Talibung Antike) 9. Re: Kali Again Thread! (Talibung Antike) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 22:19:19 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "Kali" Exposed To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I highly support your recommendation Bro. Ray for our FMA enthusiasts to read the book: “CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond the myth” written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. Here is a brief synopsis: • Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth boldly unravels with compelling and provocative hypothesis on the Hispanic origins of the Filipino Martial Arts known as eskrima, arnis and estokada. • The last vestiges of the extinct European medieval fencing could be found indirectly linked to Filipino eskrima • The authors present prima facie evidence on the fraud of the supposedly precursor art called kali • A more plausible theory on the origins of eskrima are presented in startling detail from its early beginnings as a defense against Moro pirates and slave traders and its later fusion with Spanish fencing through the Jesuit warrior priests during the pivotal years 1635-1644, the height of Spanish rapier fencing in Europe during the Renaissance. • It also presents a comprehensive chronology on the development of eskrima in Cebu, a meticulous commentary of Cebuano pioneers and innovators of eskrima and elucidates the pre-eminence of Visayans in the art of eskrima / arnis / estokada • As both authors are practitioners of this martial art, technicalities in eskrima never before detailed in other materials on the subject are carefully discussed in the book • Other interesting topics related to eskrima like the esoteric practices and healing modalities are also explained in fascinating detail. Here is what they are saying: This book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the Myth is written as a result of many years of contemplation, study and practice on the part of the authors. This work will serve as a convenient reference and guide to the concepts, historical roots and cultural foundations of this revered art. Juan “Johnny”F. Chiuten, Jr. Founder, Pronus Supinus ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------- My Father, Grandmasters Cornelio “Kune” T. Guarra and his group were dedicated practitioners of arnis/eskrima, an original Filipino Martial Art of self-defense. I myself have been practicing arnis/eskrima for 66 years and continue to this day. My greatest hope is for this treasured indigenous Filipino Martial Arts to be continued by the next generation. WE of the older generation would like to pass on our skills and knowledge to the bearers of the art. Arnis/Eskrima is our cultural pride. We as Filipinos must propagate it as a truly effective form of self-defense and don’t just let it die. Very few Filipinos have researched and documented this truly Filipino Martial Art so I am happy that Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor of Cebu are coming up with a book that deals with the history, traditions, philosophy and character of arnis/ eskrima. I hope that Filipinos and foreigner alike will come to appreciate the Filipino Martial Arts of Arnis/Eskrima. Estanislao T. Guarra Founder / President Guarra Style Modern Arnis ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- --------- October 4th 2006 Bago City Negros Occidental When I look back, I can’t stop but smile. I was 10 years old when I started the study of Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) under my late uncle, Grandmaster Romeo “Nono” C. Mamar, the founder of the Original Filipino Tapado. I started teaching when I was 14 and went on to become the Chief Instructor of the Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association (OFTLSFA), Inc. Now I’m 57 but I sill enjoy the feel of the stick in my hands and the smell of coffee sticks when they collide. It gives me pride to be a Filipino. This fervor for the Filipino Mart Arts (FMA) was further intensified when my uncle passed away and I was tasked by his family to continue his legacy. In the early days, duels were a daily reality for Arnis professors and Tapado was no exception. Many wanted to learn but we kepthigher teachings within the family. But times have. We no longer fight duels and the arts have become more popular with the general public. With this I envision the propagation of the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) in our country and around the world. Each style or systems of arnis, eskrima, or estokada have their own unique strengths and weaknesses. This diversity characterizes the Filipino ingenuity, culture, philosophy, and warrior traditions. This works by Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor is a highly commendable act of dedication to document and preserve a certain part of the Filipino martial culture, in this case that of Cebuano Eskrima. Such work requires much time, money, and effort and one would be hard pressed to find people who are willing to give the necessary sacrifice. The book is a candid in its presentation and is scholastically prepared, especially in its evaluation of the origins and myth of kali. As a Filipino I want to thank the authors for giving the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) the scholastic attention they deserve. I and our association are proud to endorse their documentary work. Benefredo “Bebing” Marmar Lobrido President and Headmaster Original Filipino Tapado Long Stick Fighting Association ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------- September 18 2006 Ozamiz City It is undeniable that the fighting arts of the Philippines are deeply rooted in the history and culture of the Philippines. To gain a better understanding of the art, we must be able to seek out and explore the bits and pieces of its history. As what Marcus Aurelius, the last of the “Five Good Emperors” who governed the Roman Empire from 96 to 180 quoted, “Look back over the past, with its changing empires that rose and fell, and you can foresee the future, too.” If has been said that he who controls the past controls the future. Our view of history shapes the way we view the present, and therefore it dictates what answers we offer for existing problems. This thought-provoking book attempts to go deeper but not exhaustive on history of the art eskrima. If questions the concept that eskrima came from an older art called kali which is reputed to come from Moro people in Mindanao. As a native of Mindanao, my journey in the Filipino Martial Arts only leads me to be acquainted with eskrima and I haven’t heard of its so called mother art named kali. This book is an interesting read since it also covers some technical discussion on eskrima and showcases about eskrima in Cebu. I personally know the authors of this book, Dr. Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor. Both of them are dedicated eskrimadors. This book is a product of their collective research in Cebuano eskrima over the years being part-time freelance writers. This book is highly recommended to everybody interested in Filipino Martial Arts. Eric L. Olavides Head and Chief Training Director Eskrima De Campo JDC-IO ------------------------------------------------------------------------- October 31, 2006 Metro Manila When Ned Nepangue called me three years ago, he informed me that he was interested in interviewing me for an article in Rapid Journal. The interview never materialized. Three years after, he called me again, inviting me to write the foreword for this book, Cebuano Eskrima: Beyond the myth. Given my passing acquaintance with Ned, I was therefore somewhat surprised by the invitation. What the reason, I am flattered, and humbled. The book highlights the martial heritage of Cebu. It is, in my view, a well-researched book that illustrates the richness of Cebu’s Martial systems and its cultural linkage, without disparaging the Filipino Martial Arts of the other regions. If is a major step towards what many consider unattainable, the unification of the Filipino Martial Arts, and is destined to be a must-have in the library of anyone with an interest in Filipino Martial Arts. As the Filipino Martial Arts community is a fractured community, any part I can play in changing this situation is an opportunity I welcome. It is in this light that I would like to thank Ned Nepangue for giving me the opportunity to introduce this book. I will also be forever grateful to Atty Jose Villasin, Teofilo Velez and Timoteo Maranga for endowing me with the strength and wisdom to pursue excellence. Finally, although he has already passed on many years ago, I would like to thank my teacher and mentor, Venancio Beacon, for sharing with me the gift of his skill and the unique Cebuano martial sprit that Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor so ably illustrate in this book. Bob Silver C. Tabimina Founder, Tabimina Balintawak ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------- --- On Mon, 8/4/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] "Kali" Exposed To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, August 4, 2008, 2:51 PM The work of Dr. Ned Nepangue and Celestino Macachor is perhaps best to refer to in this touchy area. Ray On Aug 3, 2008, at 9:52 AM, Talibung Antike wrote: > Is “Kali” appropriate to describe an indigenous blade based Filipino > Martial Arts? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 4 Aug 2008 23:02:46 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "KALI" in Hiligaynon - refers to the movement of the hand which leads to the unearthing of something which was originally buried, like "mani" or "kamote" (which incidentally starts with a thrusting or stabbing movement to the ground using a pointed implement such as a knife) KALI in Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia - refers to the movement of the hand which produces the "X" symbol (which are basically slashing strokes)   If you execute the movements described by the above definitions you will have basically covered the original 5 basic offensive techniques of the FMA - "Cinco Teros" (before it evolved into 12 in veneration of the 12 Apostles of Christ)   It is also worth noting that the "KAmot LIhok" or "hand movement" definition allegedly provided by certain old FMA masters to Dan Inosanto appears to be applicable from a "universal" context under either of the above definitions.   Believe it or not.... =[:->]       --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "norris" To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:21:08 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Tuhon Gaje- Newport News VA 13/14 Sep Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings All ! Please come join us for an outstanding Seminar! East Wind Academy of Martial Arts Proudly Presents GRAND TUHON LEO T. GAJE Pekiti Tirsia Kali September 13-14th Sat, Sun / 10:30 to 4:30 both days FILIPINO BLADE FIGHTING SYSTEM EDGED WEAPONS / IMPACT WEAPONS / EMPTY HANDS COMBAT East Wind Academy, 13361 Warwick Blvd, Newport News Va. 23602 (757)-988-0500 (Evenings) / ewa@widomaker.com / www.eastwindacademy.com before: Sep 10th $125 for 2 days/$75 for 1 day - At the door : $135 for 2 days/ $85 for 1 day ** Group discounts available Don't miss this chance to train with a martial arts legend!! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 03:10:45 -0700 (PDT) From: B Katz Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bowing in the FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm a serrada player from a small club in the Midwest. We don't bow at all. We view a bow as a submissive posture. We do, however use a salute to acknowledge a higher ranking member of our club and variants of the salute as non-verbal communication during training. www.eskrimacustoms.com Fine hand-crafted hardwood bastons and training knives --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "jorge penafiel" To: Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:37:09 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Again Thread! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Way to go Kapatid Jay and Jun on the Kali thread - really in-sightful thoughts and views. Here in ED, we present and dabble just about anything on FMA under the sky. Sometimes "discusions" as to be expected gets heated up specially on such huge topics such as the above, "FMA rankings, and Magellan/Lapu-Lapu threads". However it goes, it's all about friendly open topic presentations, discussions, picking what's right or wrong, accept or not, and move on. Not creating trouble. We're cool ! The beauty about the Ed crowd. Amongst us aside being avid FMA practioners, there are historrians, archeologist, authors, professor's, and for most are there in the Motherland... All have credentials and expertise of sort regards our beloved art. Now, for when anyone of these people wants to say and present something to heed-on,,don't you think we should give it a glance or listen ? Maybe ,,, just maybe they are telling us something worth considering in their side of the world. Nowadays, man's ever inquisitive minds comes out with newer knowledge to disproved known existing things in the medical, engineering, and business fieds base on statistics, data, research, and technology. Same as with some of our FMA mind-sets and practices, it's an open house invitation for newer things to come. Accept or not, it's our prerogative. So,so,so,so,so, hate to say, more to come yet on this Kali thread. Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 08:51:43 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali - again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual > "Kali is the wrong > word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this > the tenth time this > question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? > I agree. I have been training in the Filipino arts for 30 > yrs. and all my > instructors call it Kali. Whatever you call it, it is not > worth the argument. > Why cant we focus on the unity of the arts instead of > causing problems. talibung's post is about the origin of the term kali. as long as there are mistaken beliefs out there about the origin and historical use of the term, and as long as there are those who wish to invent a history for the term (such as the kali-bo story), posts like this are necessary, in my opinion. talibung's post brings more knowledge to this list, and how can more knowledge be a bad thing? tim --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:49:03 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Oh.... very well said "TIM" ...KNOWLEDGE is power! "talibung's post is about the origin of the term kali. as long as there are mistaken beliefs out there about the origin and historical use of the term, and as long as there are those who wish to invent a history for the term (such as the kali-bo story), posts like this are necessary, in my opinion. talibung's post brings more knowledge to this list, and how can more knowledge be a bad thing?" tim KUDOS to open minded sincere SEEKER OF KNOWLEDGE & TRUTH- true blooded FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS lover like YOU, "TIM" may your TRIBE increase! with all my respect and praise... mabuhay ka at ang FMA! "Talibung Antike" Iloilo City Philippines --- On Tue, 8/5/08, tim wrote: From: tim Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali - again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 3:51 PM > Gosh, is it that time of year already, or has the annual > "Kali is the wrong > word" argument become a bi-annual event? Also, is this > the tenth time this > question has come up or are we running into the teens yet? > I agree. I have been training in the Filipino arts for 30 > yrs. and all my > instructors call it Kali. Whatever you call it, it is not > worth the argument. > Why cant we focus on the unity of the arts instead of > causing problems. talibung's post is about the origin of the term kali. as long as there are mistaken beliefs out there about the origin and historical use of the term, and as long as there are those who wish to invent a history for the term (such as the kali-bo story), posts like this are necessary, in my opinion. talibung's post brings more knowledge to this list, and how can more knowledge be a bad thing? tim _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:40:15 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Again Thread! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Your Wisdom and Maturity is very apparent Manong Jorge! Openness to correct knowledge and truth are very essential ingredients in ones quest for true excellence and maturity especially in the field and road of Filipino Martial Arts journey. Anything that is "Wrong=X" in context and meaning like the word "Kali=X" despite how popular and widespread does not make it right especially after having been tested in the crucible of in-depth research, personal interviews and verification in the places being claimed where it originated. Hence, to all sincere pure blooded Filipino Martial Arts lovers, practitioners, teachers, promoters, masters and grandmasters who were deluded by what is wrong please be reminded that it will not make you any lesser Filipino Martial Artist in Skills, Excellence, Stature and Wisdom if you chose to take a deeper look at it or even discard and leave behind a word you have found, realized and believed to be inappropriate. A decisive move to change and discard what is wrong after having the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH is more HONORABLE- the real stamp of a TRUE BLOODED courageous FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS WARRIOR ...although everything is still a matter of CHOICE! KUDOS to all open minded sincere SEEKER OF TRUTH- TRUE BLOODED FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS enthusiasts, lovers, practitioners, teachers, guro, promoters, masters, grandmasters, tuhons, datu and supreme grandmasters! Cheers.... :-) Bow, Talibung Antikenyo --- On Tue, 8/5/08, jorge penafiel wrote: From: jorge penafiel Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Again Thread! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 2:37 PM Way to go Kapatid Jay and Jun on the Kali thread - really in-sightful thoughts and views. Here in ED, we present and dabble just about anything on FMA under the sky. Sometimes "discusions" as to be expected gets heated up specially on such huge topics such as the above, "FMA rankings, and Magellan/Lapu-Lapu threads". However it goes, it's all about friendly open topic presentations, discussions, picking what's right or wrong, accept or not, and move on. Not creating trouble. We're cool ! The beauty about the Ed crowd. Amongst us aside being avid FMA practioners, there are historrians, archeologist, authors, professor's, and for most are there in the Motherland... All have credentials and expertise of sort regards our beloved art. Now, for when anyone of these people wants to say and present something to heed-on,,don't you think we should give it a glance or listen ? Maybe ,,, just maybe they are telling us something worth considering in their side of the world. Nowadays, man's ever inquisitive minds comes out with newer knowledge to disproved known existing things in the medical, engineering, and business fieds base on statistics, data, research, and technology. Same as with some of our FMA mind-sets and practices, it's an open house invitation for newer things to come. Accept or not, it's our prerogative. So,so,so,so,so, hate to say, more to come yet on this Kali thread. Jorge Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 09:58:05 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali Again Thread! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: Jorge V Penafiel Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Your Wisdom and Maturity are very apparent Manong Jorge! Openness to correct knowledge and truth are very essential ingredients in ones quest for true excellence and maturity especially in the field and road of Filipino Martial Arts journey. Anything that is "Wrong=X" in context and meaning like the word "Kali=X" despite how popular and widespread does not make it right especially after having been tested in the crucible of in-depth research, personal interviews and verification in the places being claimed where it originated. Hence, to all sincere pure blooded Filipino Martial Arts lovers, practitioners, teachers, promoters, masters and grandmasters who were deluded by what is wrong please be reminded that it will not make you any lesser Filipino Martial Artist in Skills, Excellence, Stature and Wisdom if you chose to take a deeper look at it or even discard and leave behind a word you have found, realized and believed to be inappropriate. A decisive move to change and discard what is wrong after having the KNOWLEDGE of the TRUTH is more HONORABLE- the real stamp of a TRUE BLOODED courageous FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS WARRIOR ...although everything is still a matter of CHOICE! KUDOS to all open minded sincere SEEKER OF TRUTH- TRUE BLOODED FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS enthusiasts, lovers, practitioners, teachers, guro, promoters, masters, grandmasters, tuhons, datu and supreme grandmasters! Cheers.... :-) Bow, Talibung Antike --- On Tue, 8/5/08, jorge penafiel wrote: From: jorge penafiel Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Again Thread! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 2:37 PM Way to go Kapatid Jay and Jun on the Kali thread - really in-sightful thoughts and views. Here in ED, we present and dabble just about anything on FMA under the sky. Sometimes "discusions" as to be expected gets heated up specially on such huge topics such as the above, "FMA rankings, and Magellan/Lapu-Lapu threads". However it goes, it's all about friendly open topic presentations, discussions, picking what's right or wrong, accept or not, and move on. Not creating trouble. We're cool ! The beauty about the Ed crowd. Amongst us aside being avid FMA practioners, there are historrians, archeologist, authors, professor's, and for most are there in the Motherland... All have credentials and expertise of sort regards our beloved art. Now, for when anyone of these people wants to say and present something to heed-on,,don't you think we should give it a glance or listen ? Maybe ,,, just maybe they are telling us something worth considering in their side of the world. Nowadays, man's ever inquisitive minds comes out with newer knowledge to disproved known existing things in the medical, engineering, and business fieds base on statistics, data, research, and technology. Same as with some of our FMA mind-sets and practices, it's an open house invitation for newer things to come. Accept or not, it's our prerogative. So,so,so,so,so, hate to say, more to come yet on this Kali thread. Jorge Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest