Date: Wed, 06 Aug 2008 16:48:04 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #203 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Salutation; FWIW (nephalim1@aim.com) 2. Re: KALI - the similarities (nephalim1@aim.com) 3. Start-up Suggestions (MansfieldKali@aol.com) 4. Re: KALI - the similarities (Bill Debuque) 5. Re: Start-up Suggestions (jay de leon) 6. Arnis or Ecrima in NYC ?? (Toma Rosenzweig) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Salutation; FWIW Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 19:57:49 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello Po, Manong Jay, Manong Bot and the ED community. Just in case someone was wondering where the "pagmamano"(kissing of the hand) or pressing someones forehead to an elder's hand came from(at least from my province), here is a post in one of a few articles a friend of mine wrote in his blog(www.siuala.blogspot.com).  For a brief description of bowing and salutations you can scroll down to the title, "The Cult of Respect".  Otherwise you can read the whole article about spirituality from my region/province that explains the salutations' meaning/roots from my side of the fence in pre-hispanic times.  Hoping it's a good read for all. Jose Capitulo Kapampangan Spirituality Nû: The Universal Force Before the coming of the Spaniards, Kapampangans believed in a Universal force known as Nû. This force permeates and sustains all beings. It is generated by them yet at the same time is independent of them. It is immanent and yet transcendent. Ancient life and society has evolved through an intimate relationship with this force. We used to call our gods and ancestral spirits nunû, meaning "micro force", and the founders of communities as punû, meaning "source of nû". The elderly were particularly respected in ancient Kapampangan society simply because they were commencing gods; they were about to become one with Nû and thus become nunû. The nunû were not the duendes that the Spaniards made us believe. The nunû were our fathers and mothers, our grandparents and great grandparents who have gone ahead to become one with the force and thus become gods. Ancient graves were placed on the western part of the rice field known as minangun. There, their tombs or pungsû were in the shape of small mountains, a replica of the sacred mountain of Alaya. Nowadays, termite mounds are mistaken for pungsû are avoided and feared as to the dwelling place of the duende. HAVING A TWIN SOUL Death is the ultimate departure towards a union with this Universal force. Kapampangans believed in the idea of having a kaladua or a twin soul: One kalâ being his personal soul or lagyû, the other being his nû, the soul of the universe that lives through the land of his birth, his Indûng Tibuan, that sustains him in life and returns to earthat the hour of death. Remember how our elders used to scold us when we do not eat our supper, how our kaladua would mangalug ya kng cusinâ at night because it is hungry? The ancients believed that man has the ability to either consciously or unconciously detach his other soul. They believe that it could travel to distant lands during sleep, or that it has the power to take the form of a gray butterfly known as kambubulag to seek help from friends and relatives when one is gravely ill or near death. Others believe in the power of the mangkukusim, ancient psychics who were known to have the power to send their souls to the houses of their enemies and do them harm. The concept of kal adua would also explain the violent nationalism of the ancient Kapampangans. For them, man and his Indûng Tibuan, the land of his birth, are one and the same. Their souls are linked together intimately. They are twins. They are kaladua. Without the other, man dies a bitter death ‑ the death of a foreigner in his own native land. THE CULT OF RESPECT Although death maybe the ultimate way to become a god, the ancients believed in humans who are more or less godlike, those who are nuan, "those who are overflowing with nû". Kapampangans then believed that man is more or less nuan and must be respected accordingly. Aside from the elderly, those considered nuan by the ancients were the bayanî (warrior) who never lost a battle, the upright dátû, the powerful katulunan (seers) and mamalian (mediums), and members of the mapiâ or ancient nobility. The way to show one's respect is often through pamanyiklaud. This is done by kneeling on the ground and then pressing the kanuan, the forehead which is "the seat of nû", on the pigalanggalangan or wrist of the one being offered respect. One's rank is often times reflected by the galang or wristband one wears. If the one being respected is at a certain distance physically or in rank, one's kanuan is pressed on the ground instead of the person's wrist. Fray Juan de Plasencia, a Spanish priest observing the legal practices of the ancient Kapampangans at the beginning of the Spanish era, was quite intrigued at why the ancient o nes treated insult as the worst possible crime ever, and why it was often times repaid with death. If he took the time to understand the concept of nû, he would have understood that discourtesy then was not a mere question of forgetting one's manners but was rather a question of sacrilege. KAPAMPANGANISM VS CHRISTIANITY Religion is cultural. Culture is a collective expression of man's ongoing relationship with his environment. When a religion is introduced, it naturally brings with it the culture from whence it came. There is no religion that could be totally abstracted from the culture it sprang from. Christianity, which ultimately has its roots in Judaism, is a religion born of the desert. In the desert, the earth is death. Nothing grows from it but vipers and scorpions. So for the desert culture, the earth is evil. The intolerant desert soil would also account for the intolerant attitude of most desert cultures as expressed in their religions. In the desert, total and almost blind obedience to the head of the community is a matter of life and death, for he alone knows the trail to all the oases. To disobey is to be driven out into the harsh wilderness. Much like being excommunicated or being sent to hell. To stray away from the path is to end up dead in the hot desert sands. Life in the desert comes in the form of rain. For the desert people, good could only come from the heavens. If there is a god, then god must come from heaven. The heaven sends thunder and lightning. Th e heaven rumbles like a man. So god for the desert people must be male. For them, god is a father in heaven, for like a father, he too remains distant from his children even though he provides for them. The environment of Indûng Kapampangan are in total contrast to the desert environment. Naturally, the culture and belief system of the people here is in total contrast with the culture and religions born of the desert. For the ancient Kapampangans, the earth is rich. The richness of the Kapampangan soil accounts for the tolerant attitude of the Kapampangans and their culture. The earth is the source of all goodness. Life came from the soil. Life returns to the soil. Because the soil is good, then god must come from the soil. And because the soil nurtures and embraces all life, god must therefore be female. For the ancient Kapampangans, God is our Mother on Earth, Our beloved Indûng Tibuan. Imagine how the world of our ancestors was turned upside down when Christianity was forced upon them. Imagine the mental, cultural and spiritual anguish they experienced as the words of a totally alien god were rammed down their senses. Although they would not and could not admit it, Kapampangan Christians today still experience this same mental, spiritual, and cultural anguish. The state of their Christianity remains only in the mind. Deep down inside of them, their kaladua still struggles on to free itself from this totally alien and demanding god. BORN OF THE GODS The Kapampangan genesis knows no creation. All life sprang from the gods. All life is related. Oral history tells us that the first Kapampangan, Munag Sumalâ, The Dawn, was born of the union between the Sun God Bápû Arîng Sinukuan and our Earth Mother, the huge crocodile god of the great river, Indûng Tibuan. So great was the veneration of the ancients for Munag Sumalâ that the early missionaries decided to Christianise her and call her Maria so as to win more souls over to the new religion. Using her father's name as her surname, the Spaniards reintroduced Bápûng Munag Sumalâ as Mariang Sinukuan. The image of her son Bápûng Tálâ, the god who saved Kapampangans from the floods by teaching them how to plant rice, was used in analogy to the giving of communion by the priests. Yet the question remains as thus: If all Kapampangans then were sons and daughters of the gods and therefore gods themselves, why should they chose to become Christians and be demoted to mere creations of one god? Siuálâ ding Meángûbié Meantime: June 1999 Posted by siuala ding meangubie at 4:35 PM 0 comments Monday, August 28, 2006 Bapûng Indû, Gabun ming Tíbuan Bapûng Indû, Gabun ming Tíbuan, Ing sablâng bié quécayu ngan pû sísibul; Ing sablâng bié quécayu ngan pû múmulî. Caring uyat yu pûng ilug, M1magus pû ing mal yung dáyâ, Ing danum ming mayúmu; Inuman ding sablang bié; Ding pun à mámunga at babié pangisnaua. Icayu pû ó mal ming Indû, Ing tuné lílingap at sísiuâ quécami. Nió caulan yu kami pû sânang matálic, Qng panaún ning bagiú ampong ligalig. Qng dulum ning cabéngian, Pagtumailâ yu cami pû sâna. Indû mi pûng mal, Gabun ming Tíbuan, Pasúsuan yu cami pû qng mitmûng lugud quécayu. Alî yu pû sâ pábusteang mapatlud ing yamut mi pû quécayu. Bang manatili cami pûng tapát; Sísinup qng mal ming singsing à amána. Bapûng Indû, Gabun ming Tíbuan, Malugud yu cami pu sâng tanggapan, Caras ning aldo à mulî na cami pû quécayu; Matalic yu cami pû sâng caulan, Caras ning aldo à mulî na cami pû quecayu. Siuala ding Meangubie Posted by siuala ding meangubie at 12:21 PM 0 comments Labels: dalit Subscribe to: Posts (Atom) Kapampangan A -----Original Message----- From: Felipe Jocano To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sun, 3 Aug 2008 4:52 am Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Salutation Hi manong jay, hehehehehe, which version, the short or the long one? ;-) that's usually done before the salutation :-) i ca ll it the secret handshake that everyone can see :-) bot --- On Sun, 8/3/08, jay de leon wrote: > From: jay de leon > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Salutation > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sunday, August 3, 2008, 9:36 AM > bot: >   > no fist bumps? >   > jay de leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com > > --- On Sat, 8/2/08, Felipe Jocano > wrote: > > From: Felipe Jocano > Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Salutation > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 3:06 AM > > In addition to Joe's post below, I'd like to add a > few more details: > One reason for not bowing formally (in most systems, > exceptions as noted > below) > is pragmatic: as long as the other guy is also holding a > weapon in his/her > hand, > you're likely to get whacked on the head if you look > down as in bowing. A > nod is usually enough. > Another reason for kneeling on one leg is that the hand > movements involve > taking the teacher's hand and placing it on your > forehead. This latter is a > common sign of respect among many cultural groups all over > the archipelago. > In our group's case, the reason for doing our salute > (fist over chest) is > as a remembrance of the revolutionary background of our > country: Supposedly, > one > of the many recognition signs of the Katipunan (the > revolutionary group > working > against the Spanish in the 19th century during the last > ye ars of the Spanish > colonial regime) was to take one's hat off and place it > against the chest > when passing a possible fellow member on the street. When > done naturally, it > looks quite innocent - except to those in the know. If the > other party were a > fellow revolutionary, then he (if male) would return the > gesture. If it were > not > returned, then nothing would come of it. It should be noted > that in the oral > histories of many FMA, the connection to the revolution > against the Spanish > is > always mentioned. > Caveat: remember I used the word supposedly. Whether or not > this little > vignette is true depends on much research into 19th century > Philippines, > especially life in Manila. > There are other groups which have an elaborately > choreographed salute, and in > the case of one of my teachers, a simple handshake was > enough. > > Bot > > > Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities Date: Tue, 05 Aug 2008 20:06:21 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Isn't Cruzada of European(latin based) origin?? The "x" thing and cruz(cross) and crusades all seem related.? Jose -----Original Message----- From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 1:18 pm Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities Hi Bill, Here's the explanation of Kilat Serrada on this Malayan Definition: :-) "Hi all , upon asking my mates in malaysia, the 'X' sign is not literally translate as 'kali' in the malay language. in summary, 'X' sign in the school is still called 'X' in Malay. Here if it denotes the symbol. Cruzada is not 'kali' in malay. Cruzada is not 'Multply' per se. Though, it is said '2 times 3' or '2 multiply by 3' is said as '2 kali 3' in malay, the connotations and context is different upon usage. In example, 'how many times did he shouted' in this context, 'kali' is used for the times so it is not the 'X' sign 'He did it Once' in this context, the Once is translated in malay as SeKali.. 'How many multiple times did the price increase', here the malay word 'Kali ganda' is used to denote multiple times ... 'Once', 'Twice', 'Thrice' in malay would be 'SeKali, 'Dua Kali', Tiga Kali' etc. it would be so odd to a malay speaking person to connect the malay word 'kali' to some weapon arts P.S. - If one were to ask why the word Cruzada, or 'X' sign/symbol denote the technique, it is the way both hands cross each other in Scissor or 'X' or cross section. No where or remotely it ever connote 'multiple times' or 'multiplication factor' or 'times' etc. Cheers " http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?showtopic=3451&hl= --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 6:02 AM "KALI" in Hiligaynon - refers to the movement of the hand which leads to the unearthing of something which was originally buried, like "mani" or "kamote" (which incidentally starts with a thrusting or stabbing movement to the ground using a pointed implement such as a knife) KALI in Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia - refers to the movement of the hand which produces the "X" symbol (which are basically slashing strokes) ? If you execute the movements described by the above definitions you will have basically covered the original 5 basic offensive techniques?of the FMA - "Cinco Teros" (before it evolved into 12 in veneration of the 12 Apostles of Christ) ? It is also worth noting that the "KAmot LIhok" or "hand movement" definition?allegedly provided by certain old FMA masters to Dan Inosanto?appears to be applicable from a "universal"?context under either?of the above definitions. ? Believe it or not.... =[:->] ? ? ? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: MansfieldKali@aol.com Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:34:33 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Start-up Suggestions Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all I am getting ready to open an FMA school in small town, rural Ohio and looking for any and all suggestions to get things going right from the beginning. I have taught here for a couple years in other people's schools so I have a few students to start but I really want to promote and grow the art. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks JRW **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:07:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Van!   As I remember it, like in the traditional Filipino alphabet (i.e. A, Ba, Ka, Da, etc.), the letter "X" does not also exist in the traditional Malay alphabet.  It follows that there will be no literal translation of "X" as far as the Malay alphabet is concerned.   The only time "X" acquires a literal translation is during the performance of mathematical computations using the Malay language - wherein the multiplication sign "X" is read as "KALI".   Thus "2 X 3" is translated into Malay as "Dua KALI Tiga", wherein:   "2" is read as "Dua" "3" is read as "Tiga", and "X" is read as "KALI"   Based on the foregoing example, therefore, the statement that the symbol "X" does not have any literal explanation in the Malay language will not be entirely factual.   Thus, if you will write two numbers on a sand lot, and you trace your CRUZADA strikes on the space between those two numbers, the resulting "X" symbol between those two numbers will instantly be read by a Malay Language speaker as.... "KALI".   Which brings us to another oddity.  The art of writing symbols on a sand lot is I think called CALLIgraphy - and in both Chinese and Japanese swordmanship, the level of skill of a swordsman can be measured by his CALLIgraphic skills.     Using the Malay alphabet, "CALLIgraphy" will be spelled as "KALIgrapi".   And again, "KALIgrapi" is basically all about "Hand Movements".   This brings us all back to Dan Inosanto's "KAmot LIhok" explanation.          Believe it or not.... =[:->]   Regards,   Bill --- On Wed, 8/6/08, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #202 - 1 msg To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 8:48 AM Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: KALI - the similarities (Talibung Antike) -- __--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 10:18:33 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bill, Here's the explanation of Kilat Serrada on this Malayan Definition: :-) "Hi all , upon asking my mates in malaysia, the 'X' sign is not literally translate as 'kali' in the malay language. in summary, 'X' sign in the school is still called 'X' in Malay. Here if it denotes the symbol. Cruzada is not 'kali' in malay. Cruzada is not 'Multply' per se. Though, it is said '2 times 3' or '2 multiply by 3' is said as '2 kali 3' in malay, the connotations and context is different upon usage. In example, 'how many times did he shouted' in this context, 'kali' is used for the times so it is not the 'X' sign 'He did it Once' in this context, the Once is translated in malay as SeKali.. 'How many multiple times did the price increase', here the malay word 'Kali ganda' is used to denote multiple times ... 'Once', 'Twice', 'Thrice' in malay would be 'SeKali, 'Dua Kali', Tiga Kali' etc. it would be so odd to a malay speaking person to connect the malay word 'kali' to some weapon arts P.S. - If one were to ask why the word Cruzada, or 'X' sign/symbol denote the technique, it is the way both hands cross each other in Scissor or 'X' or cross section. No where or remotely it ever connote 'multiple times' or 'multiplication factor' or 'times' etc. Cheers " http://www.fmaforum.org/index.php?showtopic=3451&hl= --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 6:02 AM "KALI" in Hiligaynon - refers to the movement of the hand which leads to the unearthing of something which was originally buried, like "mani" or "kamote" (which incidentally starts with a thrusting or stabbing movement to the ground using a pointed implement such as a knife) "KALI" in Bahasa Indonesia/Malaysia - refers to the movement of the hand which produces the "X" symbol (which are basically slashing strokes)   If you execute the movements described by the above definitions you will have basically covered the original 5 basic offensive techniques of the FMA - "Cinco Teros" (before it evolved into 12 in veneration of the 12 Apostles of Christ)   It is also worth noting that the "KAmot LIhok" or "hand movement" definition allegedly provided by certain old FMA masters to Dan Inosanto appears to be applicable from a "universal" context under either of the above definitions.   Believe it or not.... =[:->]     --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 21:14:36 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Start-up Suggestions To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net that is easy.   is it a commercial venture, or a labor of love?   if the first, you have to treat it like a business. income should exceed expenses.  how do you do that?  that is the hard part. you would need a handbook, or an expert consultant.   hint:  you cannot promote and grow the art if you have to close your doors after 3 months.   if the second, go knock yourself out and have a good time.   jay de leon www.tipunan.com entrepreneur and financial executive   --- On Tue, 8/5/08, MansfieldKali@aol.com wrote: From: MansfieldKali@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Start-up Suggestions To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 6:34 PM Hi all I am getting ready to open an FMA school in small town, rural Ohio and looking for any and all suggestions to get things going right from the beginning. I have taught here for a couple years in other people's schools so I have a few students to start but I really want to promote and grow the art. All suggestions are welcome. Thanks JRW **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000500000000 17 ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Toma Rosenzweig" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 5 Aug 2008 22:29:07 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Arnis or Ecrima in NYC ?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have a friend who is looking for a good School of Arnis or Escrima in and about CHelsea New York CIty Anybody ??? thanks I will send her your answers From: Toma [the Old One] Toma's Modern Arnis(c) Main e-Mail: tomawallaikido@earthlink.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest