Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 19:21:01 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #207 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali Garimot or Garimot Kali? (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. WHERE DO I GET THIS GREAT BOOK ?? (Talibung Antike) 3. Re: KALI - the similarities (james jr. sy) 4. KALI THE RESURRECTION (Red Gonzales) 5. Re: Kali-mit bumalik nito, be it. (james jr. sy) 6. Re: WHERE DO I GET THIS GREAT BOOK ?? (Ray) 7. DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (Red Gonzales) 8. Re: KALI - the similarities (james jr. sy) 9. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 21:15:54 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Garimot or Garimot Kali? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To All, As the the head of the Garimot System (Filipino Martial Arts), I here to declare from this day forward, our system will also be known Kali-Garimot or Garimot Kali, which one did you think which are cooler? I will embrace every "Kali-pi" (brother) out there, with high regards of "Kali-nangan" knowledge in all Kali-kawan (in deeper) theory of the arts of from the top to the Kali-liit-liitang (to the tiny winny) techniques in FMA the one in only KALI. So we can start to move on forward and be one FMA. Let me try for few days, let me enjoy be "Kali" fighter for a change. Kali- Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot KALI (XXXXX) Training Group International Laguna KALI(XXXXX) Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:50:29 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] WHERE DO I GET THIS GREAT BOOK ?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To all "FMAs- Filipino Mandirigmang Agham @ Sining" (Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences) enthusiasts and lovers! Just check these sites for this great FMAs Book: CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond the myth written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=28322 http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/WEBSITE/WWW/WEBPAGES/search.php?key=cebuano+e skrima&by=title&Button1.x=0&Button1.y=0&Button1=Go Warm regards, "Talibung Antike" --- On Tue, 8/5/08, Toma Rosenzweig wrote: From: Toma Rosenzweig Subject: WHERE DO I GET THIS GREAT BOOK ?? To: talibung@yahoo.com Date: Tuesday, August 5, 2008, 7:36 PM CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond the myth written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. Thanks for the info where can I get this great book ?? From: Toma [the Old One] Main e-Mail: tomawallaikido@earthlink.net Great Aikido every day at Daiwa Aikido, now Modern Arnis ask for info. on these classes MODERN ARNIS, MA-80 & CSSD/SC systems Seminars on Knife Disarms, Aikido, Arnis, Knife Training, Pocket Stick, Bokken, and Staff NOW in So CA anytime, most anywhere NEW WEB SITE: www.tomamodernarnis.com Cell Phone # (818) 339-4051 The House of Flying Rattan and Steel(c) The Home of Modern Arnis in Los Angeles CA --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 03:06:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Bill, I kept on withholding myself from beingpulled back into the Kali Wars. It's a waste of time. The facts had been laid before...extensively. Cheers to those who had looked deeper into it and made adjustments to their stand on the Kali issue. But it's a shame for some who continue to weave new twists into the Kali myth just to defend it. It brings shame not only to those who don't use the termbut alsoto those who use the term but don't weave hallucinatory fiction. Your assertions are absurd. They just go way off line. I am part Chinese and my grandfathers came from China. I can tell you straight that your assumption that calligraphy and swordsmanship go together. On the contrary, many ancient Chinese scholars do not know martial arts and not all Chinese warriors were well versed in Chinese calligraphy, which was mostly reserved forroyalty. A good part of ancient Chinese populationwas illiterate since education during those times was too expensive. Yet China spawned a huge spectrum of the martial arts and personalities. Here'sa lesson on etymology for you Bill. The English word calligraphy has nothing to do with any of the Malay languages. The word was derived from the Greekkalligrapha "beautiful writing," kllos being"beauty" and graphein "to write." The word is traceable to the period16051615. Greek, or English for this matter,is of a different language family from Malay so you have no etymological basis of connecting the two. For the uninitiated, your analogy of writing with hand movements may seem to hold water but in reality it has noprima facie evidence. I've studied some Pencak Silat and i can tell you your association of the Indonesian word Kali with the Kali FMA term has no factual ground. In the end, I don't believe your new twist to the Kali etymology. Regards, James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Bacolod City, Philippines --- On Wed, 8/6/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, August 6, 2008, 1:07 PM Hi Van! As I remember it, like in the traditional Filipino alphabet (i.e. A, Ba, Ka, Da, etc.), the letter "X" does not also existin thetraditional Malay alphabet.It follows that there will be no literal translation of "X" as far as the Malay alphabet is concerned. The only time "X" acquires a literal translationis duringthe performance of mathematical computations using the Malay language - wherein the multiplication sign "X" is read as "KALI". Thus "2 X 3" is translated into Malay as "Dua KALI Tiga", wherein: "2" is read as "Dua" "3" is read as "Tiga", and "X" is read as "KALI" Based on the foregoing example, therefore, the statement that the symbol "X" does not have any literal explanation in the Malay language will notbeentirely factual. Thus, ifyou will write two numbers ona sand lot,and youtrace your CRUZADA strikes on thespace between those two numbers, the resulting "X" symbol between those two numbers will instantly be read by a Malay Language speaker as.... "KALI". Which brings us to another oddity. The art of writing symbols ona sand lot is I think called CALLIgraphy - and in both Chinese and Japanese swordmanship,the level of skill of a swordsmancan bemeasuredby his CALLIgraphic skills. Using the Malay alphabet, "CALLIgraphy" will be spelled as "KALIgrapi". And again, "KALIgrapi" is basically all about"Hand Movements". Thisbrings us all back to Dan Inosanto's "KAmot LIhok" explanation. Believe it or not.... =[:->] Regards, Bill --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:52:56 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] KALI THE RESURRECTION Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net     Mr. Odal my friend,   I’m sorry to disagree with you.  Kali does not mean a stick in Visayan.    I can speak Hiligaynon, Cebuano, and a little Karay-a.  I have family members in Negros, Panay, Cebu, Leyte, and even in Siquijor.   I’m with Talibung Antike, who like me, speak the language.  May I ask from what part of the Philippines are you and do you speak Visayan?  If not, where did you get the “stick” definition of Kali?    I’m 100% sure you are quoting Yambao, to which list member James Sy had extensively written here.  Sy had previously cited, like Dr. Nepangue, that there is no Kali-radman in Visayan, only Kina-adman.  No Kali in there.    As with regards the supposed Spanish ban on weapons, when was it?  What decree was it and who issued it?  I’m afraid such is just another rehash of the old Kali myth.    About the dances in the Visayas, sadly, there is no mention of Kali.  The Sinulog is being celebrated in honor of the Señor Sto. Niño, who is from the Catholic Church, not from the supposed Muslim or Islamic Kali.  Inconsistent…don’t you think?   And yes, Sinulog is not ancient FYI.    Who were the Eskrimadors who said “dances have always been Used?”  I bet it is The Filipino Martial Arts of Guro Daniel Inosanto.    There are more than 100, not 90, languages in the Philippines.   If you are Filipino, you would know that the northern, central, and southern classification of FMA were Inosanto’s and is unknown in the Philippine archipelago.    Our brothers in Mindanao do not use Kali as the name of their systems.  Macachor have stayed in Mindanao for several years and he was just disappointed not to find any single Muslim Kali GM, only Eskrima GMs.  The Muslim motif has already been shown not to fit the puzzle.  The Muslim arts are called Silat and Kuntaw.    Prof. Jocano had previously said that you just could not conclude that a certain word came from another just simply because they appear similar, like in your example of Kali and Tjakalele.  Tjakalele is a war dance, not a martial art.  If we accept your logic, then Kali would be nothing but a dance.    Kali the Goddess is Hindu not Islamic.  Inconsistent…again, don’t you think?   If you choose to believe the Kamot Lihok definition of Guro Inosanto, then you would agree that it is Cebuano, right?  If it is Cebuano, how can it be Muslim or something from Mindanao?  Maybe somebody can help me.  I’m confused of the inconsistencies here.    All in all I don’t see any SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof.   In fact, the arguments, you have raised were mostly derived from The Filipino Martial Arts and various writings on Kali in the US.   Still, the question remains:  Does anybody have any SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof?   Mr. Odal you might have some.  I would love to hear about it.  I’ll be waiting.       Red Gonzales New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 03:13:57 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-mit bumalik nito, be it. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi GP Abon, Your list of Kali words just reminded me of a Cebuano Kali word. Kali-bang = to deficate ( : - ) Cheers! James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. Bacolod City, Philippines --- On Thu, 8/7/08, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: From: GatPuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-mit bumalik nito, be it. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 9:11 AM HI to everyone, I just want to let everyone knows I am still alive, just little bit quite and busy a bit at work. Nice try everyone, just remember "Kali" is now accepted term, what else you want to prove? "Kali-mutan" na (forget about it), is accepted term as FMA "Kali-liit" na bagay (is just a small thing), let move on "Cool na kung Cool", it has been "Kali-tuhan" (mix-up), it has been "nag-Kali-bakan" (insult each other), Kali-bangan (entertain each other), "Kali-kuan" ng paliwanag (Derailed the meaning), and it a never ending topic, So I just want to talk about the effectiveness of the arts and how can we learn from each other. Okay, it in Malaysa, or even in Indonesia, but the fact the matter is Malaysia and other country is not Philippines. So let it go, the world is already accepted "KALI" as term for FMA. Is that cool? Kali-mit (often times) brought to the topic, and is just get heat up, and it's does not a new term anymore, we know, the world know already.. Un-less you will stand that your Kali is better than Arnis and Eskrima, then we have something to talk about more that words. Mga Kapatid (all brothers) Kali-pi (Kabayan), Kali-ngkingan (pingki finger) lamang ito (this is just a small part only) of our problem, we need to be united, to move forward with this. If we want to become successfull and more accepted Martial world wide, we need to talk about more fruitful plan, like support each other tournaments, seminar, and networking each. Kali -cool, Arnis -cool too -Eskrima-even cooler, other term uniquely cooler.. We are all one body, we are all FMA, we promote and love this arts.. un-less you are only here to stir us all.. and tell you we need you too, without you list is lonely, just hurt me seeing "FMA vs FMA" is history repeat itself again, the Spaniards used this tactic to us Filipino tribes vs. Filipino tribes to conquered Filipino.. Here in the US, or other country Filipino tago then Filipino Turo.. Tellmeis Kali techniques is better that Arnis or Eskrima? If so, I want to learn from you, but first proved it? Kali-kutan ko (me being naughty) Kali-mitan (often times) got me in troubles. But Kali-nangan ko sa Arnis (my knowledge in "Arnis" saved my life all the time. Kali-lilibing ko lamang (I just burried) ang tulog kong damdamin (my sleepy feelings), Kali-bangan ko ang hamon ( my amusement is challenges), kung Kali-pi ang taya (if my bothers) are the beneficiary, I dont mind being the shield (Arnis).. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] WHERE DO I GET THIS GREAT BOOK ?? Date: Thu, 7 Aug 2008 20:59:42 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net And... http://www.amazon.com/Cebuano-Eskrima-M-D-Ned-Nepangue/dp/1425746217/ref=sr_1 _1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1218167715&sr=1-1 http://search.barnesandnoble.com/Cebuano-Eskrima/M-D-Nepangue/e/9781425746216 /?itm=1 On Aug 7, 2008, at 8:50 PM, Talibung Antike wrote: > To all "FMAs- Filipino Mandirigmang Agham @ Sining" > (Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences) enthusiasts and lovers! > > Just check these sites for this great FMAs Book: > CEBUANO ESKRIMA: Beyond the myth > written by Ned R. Nepangue, M.D. and Celestino C. Macachor. > > > http://www2.xlibris.com/bookstore/bookdisplay.asp?bookid=28322 > > http://www.bookdepository.co.uk/WEBSITE/WWW/WEBPAGES/search.php?key=cebuano+e > skrima&by=title&Button1.x=0&Button1.y=0&Button1=Go > > Warm regards, > > "Talibung Antike" --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:50:30 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My friends,   Why dig this dead horse again?  WHY???   Kali may sound cool but it has no historical, archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic basis.   For those who use Kali, it may not be worth the argument, but for us Filipinos it is something that destroys the very fiber of our dear martial culture.    Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland.  There is no reason we won’t stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever.   For those who would say there is, here is a challenge:  Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof.    SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof doesn’t include my instructor said so, it’s what we use, it’s cool, etc.   It doesn’t mean anything even if all your instructors call it Kali.  It’s not proof of its legitimacy as the name of FMA.   Why can’t we unite for the good of the art?  Ever remember how “Kali” say bad things about Arnis and Escrima?  That doesn’t constitute unity, or is it?   For those who are embarrassed for the constant criticism on Kali, finish this once and for all by giving SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof.    Otherwise, as Mr. McGrath said it may well become a bi-annual event or worse, something more often.   Maybe, maybe, if someone can produce such then we can resolve this for good.   But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years.    Again, a challenge, PROVE, PROVE, PROVE.  Till then, might as well Kali Kamote.      Red Gonzales New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 03:26:27 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net A few points Bill, 1. From a scholastic point of view, Wikipedia would be the last place you want to base your research. Just about anybody, including you, can edit Wikipedia. How can you be sure the data thereare legit? 2. What is being sated is a HYPOTHESIS, not PROVEN FACT. Please note the following words: suggestions, similarities, observations... They don't express hard facts. Would be good if you can give something more convincing. Otherwise, you're just adding embarrassment to all those who use the term Kali. Cheers! James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc. --- On Thu, 8/7/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI - the similarities To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, August 7, 2008, 1:42 PM Hi Tim! While I made the comment half in jest, here are possible leads for the "Greekconnection" of "KALI"you are looking for. Wikipedia on the etymology of KALI: "KALI is the feminine ofKALA "black, dark coloured" (per Panini 4.1.42). It appears as the name of a form of Durga in Mahabharata 4.195, and as the name of an evil female spirit in Harivamsa 11552. The homonymousKALA "appointed time", which depending on context can mean "death", is distinct fromKALA "black", but became associated through folk etymology. The association is seen in a passage from the Mahbhrata, depicting a female figure who carries away the spirits of slain warriors and animals." Wikipedia on the Indo-European Language Family: "The Indo-European languages comprise a family of several hundred related languages and dialects, including most of the major languages of Europe, the Iranian plateau (Southwest Asia), much of Central Asia and the Indian subcontinent (South Asia). The Indo-European (Indo refers to the Indian subcontinent, since geographically the language group spreads from Europe in the west to India in the east) group has the largest numbers of speakers of the recognised families of languages in the world today, with its languages spoken by approximately three billion native speakers." "Suggestions of similarities between Indian and European languages began to be made by European visitors to India in the sixteenth century. In 1583 Thomas Stephens, an English Jesuit missionary in Goa, noted similarities between Indian languages, specifically Konkani, and Greek and Latin. These observations were included in a letter to his brother which was not published until the twentieth century." --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:05:39 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland. There is no reason we won't stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever. and that is the crux of this problem here. One group says this and the other says that and never can the two meet it seems, especially when one has already made its mind up. History also tells us that not all Filipinos fought the spanish occupation and were happy to fight other tribes for other reasons. "The Philippines did not exist as a country when the Spaniards arrived in the XVI century. Instead of a country, there were seven thousand islands, inhabited by many different peoples governed by a multitude of kings often at war with each other. Thus, when Cali Pulaco ( Lapu Lapu ) went to war against Magallanes, he did not wage war against Spaniards, but against allies of Humabon, king of Cebu. Lapu Lapu fought against the Mactan invasion by Cebu. And he could not have fought for any another objective. For him, his country and his kingdom was Mactan and only Mactan." source: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7029/drama.html So the romance of fighting the Kali myth is a self interested cause. > > But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years. interestingly where i currently live (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098.html) they just found evidence that blew apart previous convictions about the indigenous tribes. funny old world... off to walk my dog, she's called kali ; ) -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest