Date: Sat, 09 Aug 2008 20:21:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #209 - 13 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali- The Mother Art (Terrence David Reyes) 2. Kali and Cebuano book (Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi) 3. Re: Kali- The Mother Art (Ray) 4. a basic characteristic of "truth"... finally i have proof kali exist! (maurice gatdula) 5. Re: a basic characteristic of "truth"... finally i have proof kali exist! (jay de leon) 6. Happy Birthday Cacoy! (Ray) 7. Re: Happy Birthday Cacoy! (jay de leon) 8. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (Felipe Jocano) 9. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (Red Gonzales) 10. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (realitycombat) 11. interesting interview with dan inosanto (maurice gatdula) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 16:39:03 -0700 From: "Terrence David Reyes" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net So Kali isn't the Mother Artt? Best Regards, David Reyes --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 08 Aug 2008 13:56:53 -1000 From: Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali and Cebuano book Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 1) The issue of the name KALI and the history of KALI has to separated. a) It is entirely plausible that ONE group in the Philippines called their art Kali.   b) It is entirely plausible that is the mythology (cultural story of origins) of how the art developed. c) It is primary with the Villabrille-Largusa-Kali system.  Wherever GM Villabrille studied, one group could have called it that and had a whole mythology behind it.   d) There is no written history or cultural artifacts of the art of KALI in the Philippines. e) Calling people liars as opposed to 'saying you don't believe' are entirely different.  I don't believe the KALI history, even though the system I studied was through the Kali line, but even then I don't see any reason why anybody has to go around calling people liars posthumously.  People should spend their time on other things. Main reason why I don't like talking about FMA too much w/ people.  Too much bullshit.  And I've been involved 15 years. As for the Spanish origins of Eskrima for Nepangue .  . . I've read excerpts of the book, but again he is only talking primarily of one area.  They are talking about Eskrima 'origins' during Spanish times. It is ridiculous.  It should rather be referred to as a TRANSFORMATION.  If you read all Spanish accounts, the shield and spear was the primary weapon of Filipinos, not a 25-32 inch rattan stick.  It's obvious Filipinos had some sort of fighting system going on previous to Spanish teaching of fencing, so I don't know where the authors are going with this. I don't believe in ORIGINS of arts.  People decide to teach techniques to others if they fight.  Some people decide to codify it, make a curriculum, design a pedagogy, then create a system, school, style.  Personally, I find it ridiculous people still discuss ORIGINS of FMA.   Combat creates martial arts - end of story.  Fighting is the origin of FMA.  You change the way you fight if you fight other people with different strategy. Respectfully, -Erwin Legaspi --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 18:09:24 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Reyes is just having fun with those that finally got around to reading Guro Danny's 1977 book... :) Ray On Aug 8, 2008, at 4:39 PM, Terrence David Reyes wrote: > So Kali isn't the Mother Artt? > > Best Regards, > David Reyes --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 19:06:03 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] a basic characteristic of "truth"... finally i have proof kali exist! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net when people are talking about history, religion, KALI, etc. there is one basic "secrets", that if you know it you can avoid arguments when they are not necessary. the secret is, that if one side says this, and another side says that, the reason they cannot come together is because they are discussing what they believe is the truth. and for the truth, there is no place in the middle. either one person is telling the truth, or he is not telling the truth. if a person is telling a story that is not true, then it doesnt matter if he believes it, it is still NOT TRUE. if a person is telling a story that has been proving to be untrue (not just argued, but NOT TRUE), the story is still not true, no matter how many times you tell it, no matter how much "proof" you try to find, or connect, the story is not true. if a person is telling a story that is not true, but you want it to be true, but just cant find good proof, and you argue it to death. no matter how bad you want this story to be believed, it is not just not true, it is a lie. so you tell me that in my language, that a word exists, and i speak it, and i'm telling you its not there, and other people tell you its not there, arguing me that there's other dialects, that neither me nor you speak this language, does this make your word true? no. it is a lie. btw, when somebody still comes in to ask do you teach kali, i say sure, we do. btw, my son's name is abdul khaliq, his nickname is... "kali", lol. so maybe there is some truth to this kali, it does exist, but not in the philippines, he lives in sacramento california. --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:05:38 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] a basic characteristic of "truth"... finally i have proof kali exist! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   good grief, they are coming out of the woodwork.  this is the second "kali" to surface.   this is why i hedged my bet about this kali business.   the one i am afraid of is the one from Tawi-Tawi. so far, no sign of him.   sorry, Crafty.  Yambao does not count. (actually, it was his editor, remember?) A big howl for your upcoming Gathering.     jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Fri, 8/8/08, maurice gatdula wrote: From: maurice gatdula Subject: [Eskrima] a basic characteristic of "truth"... finally i have proof kali exist! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 7:06 PM btw, when somebody still comes in to ask do you teach kali, i say sure, we do. btw, my son's name is abdul khaliq, his nickname is... "kali", lol. so maybe there is some truth to this kali, it does exist, but not in the philippines, he lives in sacramento california. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:17:12 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Happy Birthday Cacoy! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 89 years old today. And he celebrates by teaching a seminar in LA. Happy Birthday Cacoy! Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 20:34:43 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Happy Birthday Cacoy! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Happy Birthday, Manong Cacoy.   May you have many more birthdays, seminars, books, tournaments and other martial arts and personal blessings to come.    Do not forget the pancit for long life.   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com             --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: [Eskrima] Happy Birthday Cacoy! To: "Eskrima-Digest" Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 8:17 PM 89 years old today. And he celebrates by teaching a seminar in LA. Happy Birthday Cacoy! Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 04:14:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As an occasional contributor to the resurrection of this dead horse :-) I can't help but remember the lyrics to one of Spandau Ballet's songs, the one that goes, "Round and round it goes, and nobody knows...." Whirling dead horses... :-) Bot --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 17:59:59 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   Pat my friend,   The main issue here is the BIG LIEs propagated by Kali.    Pointing out that Filipino tribes fought among themselves would not change the BIG LIE but would just serve to divert attention away from the main issue.    If you feel embarrassed by the attacks on Kali, kindly answer the challenge.  Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof Pat.  I’ll be waiting.    Red Gonzales --- On Fri, 8/8/08, iPat wrote: From: iPat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 11:05 PM > Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland. There is no reason we won't stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever. and that is the crux of this problem here. One group says this and the other says that and never can the two meet it seems, especially when one has already made its mind up. History also tells us that not all Filipinos fought the spanish occupation and were happy to fight other tribes for other reasons. "The Philippines did not exist as a country when the Spaniards arrived in the XVI century. Instead of a country, there were seven thousand islands, inhabited by many different peoples governed by a multitude of kings often at war with each other. Thus, when Cali Pulaco ( Lapu Lapu ) went to war against Magallanes, he did not wage war against Spaniards, but against allies of Humabon, king of Cebu. Lapu Lapu fought against the Mactan invasion by Cebu. And he could not have fought for any another objective. For him, his country and his kingdom was Mactan and only Mactan." source: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7029/drama.html So the romance of fighting the Kali myth is a self interested cause. > > But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years. interestingly where i currently live (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098.h tml) they just found evidence that blew apart previous convictions about the indigenous tribes. funny old world... off to walk my dog, she's called kali ; ) -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 11:13:43 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Now you are calling us all liers. Grow up!!!! Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Red Gonzales >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 4:59 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI > >  >Pat my friend, >  >The main issue here is the BIG LIEs propagated by Kali.  >  >Pointing out that Filipino tribes fought among themselves would not change the >BIG LIE but would just serve to divert attention away from the main issue.  >  >If you feel embarrassed by the attacks on Kali, kindly answer the challenge.  >Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof Pat.  I’ll be waiting.  >  >Red Gonzales > >--- On Fri, 8/8/08, iPat wrote: > >From: iPat >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 11:05 PM > >> Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland. There is no reason >we won't stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever. > >and that is the crux of this problem here. One group says this and the >other says that and never can the two meet it seems, especially when >one has already made its mind up. > >History also tells us that not all Filipinos fought the spanish >occupation and were happy to fight other tribes for other reasons. >"The Philippines did not exist as a country when the Spaniards arrived >in the XVI century. Instead of a country, there were seven thousand >islands, inhabited by many different peoples governed by a multitude >of kings often at war with each other. Thus, when Cali Pulaco ( Lapu >Lapu ) went to war against Magallanes, he did not wage war against >Spaniards, but against allies of Humabon, king of Cebu. Lapu Lapu >fought against the Mactan invasion by Cebu. And he could not have >fought for any another objective. For him, his country and his kingdom >was Mactan and only Mactan." source: >http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7029/drama.html > >So the romance of fighting the Kali myth is a self interested cause. > >> >> But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years. > >interestingly where i currently live >(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098. h >tml) >they just found evidence that blew apart previous convictions about >the indigenous tribes. > >funny old world... > >off to walk my dog, she's called kali ; ) >-- >Pat Davies >www.amag.org.uk >Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ > > > > New Email addresses available on Yahoo! >Get the Email name you've >always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. >Hurry before someone else >does! >http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Sat, 9 Aug 2008 09:51:22 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] interesting interview with dan inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i thought this was very interesting interview. it is rick tucci interviewing master inosanto on a tv show. for people who never met him, it was good to hear his own words about himself and jeet kune do and the school. much respect, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8JbQwbZDeb8 i would like to add something that he said. in the interview, he mantion that he taught most of the classes at the school (wow, and many of the people looks past him now, even they rival mr inosanto. there is no respect there). anyway, he said that bruce lee was the si gung and he was the sifu. actually in a chinese martial arts school, traditional CMA, the si gung is not located in the same school. the sifu is always the sifu, even though the older brothers teach the younger brothers and everyone calls the master, sifu. the teachers are called "si hing". when the si hings open their own school, they are then called SIFU. you do not have more than one sifu in the same school unless they are different sifu who come together to teach. understanding of this would of made some of the jeet kune do politics go away. another one, is the dan inosanto is senior because he came first. and he will always be senior under the same master. the way to avoid this if you dont want him to be your senior, is to leave the house, and do your own thing. now you are no longer under this same master and old brothers, and do like you wish. but just dont call it "whatever style" now, you are on your own. last, mr inosanto mention that they train different things at different time periods. this happens a lot in traditional school where is no curriculum in stone or belts, etc. so if somebody trained for this 6 months they learn wing chun, in the next six months they learn kickboxing, etc. maybe this explins why people have a different view of jeet kune do, instead of all together. it sounds to me like people didnt stay around long enough to get the whole picture, and only got a few pieces. the solution for this can be helped by the traditional FMA.... you rank by time training and skill, fighting skill. in jkd people are becoming teachers too soon, and not by fighting, and this is why we have politics, their too weak in fighting so you have to argue about other things. if master inosanto is the senior, then he should be the one who says who gets certified and who doesnt, not to allow lower level people to "certify", and this will help keep a count of who is legitimate and who isnt. i met a guy here one time who says he teachers JKD, and i asked who his teachers are and how he got "certify" you know what he told me? first he learned from paul vunak and dan inosanto, but he didnt need certificates, because he made his own jeet kune do. i bet he's probably not in business any more, lol. i tell you what, i bet the guys who trained in those days with dan inosanto probably got better training and better fighting than today. there is too much video, too much learning only by seminar, and no true testing, and definitely too many people teaching. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest