Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #210 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (Red Gonzales) 2. Re: Re: Salutations, FWIW (nephalim1@aim.com) 3. Clarification re the word "Kali" in FMAS (Talibung Antike) 4. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (nephalim1@aim.com) 5. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (iPat) 6. Re: Clarification re the word (realitycombat) 7. Re: interesting interview with dan inosanto (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:42:00 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sifu/Guro J Hosch, Could you kindly point out in my post where I said that ALL of you are liers?    I repeat and will extend the post for you:  "The main issue here is the BIG LIEs propagated by Kali."    "If you feel embarrassed by the attacks on Kali, kindly answer the challenge. Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof Pat.  Iâll be waiting."    I would like to see what you have to offer for this challenge.  Let's stick to the issue and not divert from it by saying "grow up."  I'm all grown up now, that's why I question these LIES.  And if you are a grown up guy yourself you'll answert the challenge Sifu/Guro J Hosch.   I'll await your reply.    Red Gonzales   --- On Sun, 8/10/08, realitycombat wrote: From: realitycombat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, 10 August, 2008, 12:13 AM Now you are calling us all liers. Grow up!!!! Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Red Gonzales >Sent: Aug 9, 2008 4:59 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI > >  >Pat my friend, >  >The main issue here is the BIG LIEs propagated by Kali.  >  >Pointing out that Filipino tribes fought among themselves would not change the >BIG LIE but would just serve to divert attention away from the main issue.  >  >If you feel embarrassed by the attacks on Kali, kindly answer the challenge.  >Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof Pat.  Iâll be waiting.  >  >Red Gonzales > >--- On Fri, 8/8/08, iPat wrote: > >From: iPat >Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Date: Friday, 8 August, 2008, 11:05 PM > >> Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland. There is no reason >we won't stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever. > >and that is the crux of this problem here. One group says this and the >other says that and never can the two meet it seems, especially when >one has already made its mind up. > >History also tells us that not all Filipinos fought the spanish >occupation and were happy to fight other tribes for other reasons. >"The Philippines did not exist as a country when the Spaniards arrived >in the XVI century. Instead of a country, there were seven thousand >islands, inhabited by many different peoples governed by a multitude >of kings often at war with each other. Thus, when Cali Pulaco ( Lapu >Lapu ) went to war against Magallanes, he did not wage war against >Spaniards, but against allies of Humabon, king of Cebu. Lapu Lapu >fought against the Mactan invasion by Cebu. And he could not have >fought for any another objective. For him, his country and his kingdom >was Mactan and only Mactan." source: >http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/7029/drama.html > >So the romance of fighting the Kali myth is a self interested cause. > >> >> But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years. > >interestingly where i currently live >(http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-truth-about-the-picts-886098. h >tml) >they just found evidence that blew apart previous convictions about >the indigenous tribes. > >funny old world... > >off to walk my dog, she's called kali ; ) >-- >Pat Davies >www.amag.org.uk >Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ > > New Email names for you! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 2 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 10:41:30 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It may or may not.? If old timers in mexico do this and not of the later generations, then maybe this is something that was forced upon them rather than an old custom.? The Filipinos custom, or at least from my province, was to press the elders' wrist on the forehead of the one giving respect.? That is if the person is close enough to grab the wrist of the elder.? If it is of some distance away then the other salutation is used (I'm hoping you read the article and not just my introduction).? This salutation later morphed into the kissing of the hand (and not the wrist). Which Spain might have adpoted for themselves. -----Original Message----- From: Afern27@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wed, 6 Aug 2008 6:41 pm Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW In a message dated 8/6/2008 7:26:54 A.M. Mountain Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Just in case someone was wondering where the "pagmamano"(kissing of the hand) or pressing someones forehead to an elder's hand came from(at least from my province), I've seen old timers doing this in Mexico too. So maybe this ultimately traces back to Spain? **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 07:41:44 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Clarification re the word "Kali" in FMAS Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "What's in a name?A ROSE by any other would smell as sweet..." William Shakespeare But calling a beautiful sweet smelling "ROSE flower" an "AIRPLANE" is inappropriate more so to call it "KALI-BANG" or "FECES" Almost all names have meanings and significance since time immemorial. Early peoples bestowed a name with definite consciousness of its meaning. Ex: Biblical: John (Gracious gift of Yahweh) Joseph (He shall add) Hannah (God has favored me) Greek-Latin: Alexander (Helper of mankind) Clarence (famous) Margaret (Pearl) George (Farmer) Hiligaynon:Ilong-Ilong (Nose) isa Ka libo (one thousand) isa ka libo ka tuig (one thousand years) Libo (one thousand) Kalipay (Happiness) Kalisud (Difficulties) Lisud (difficult)Ka linong (peaceful) Ka limtan (to forget)Limtan (forget) Na limtan (forgotten) Visayan/Cebuano: Ka Libangon (to defecate) Pilipino/Tagalog:Ka Libugan (lust) Ka limutan (forget) Hence, meaning and appropriateness is very important though it is still a matter of choice. Like for example: a "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" (FMAS) even if it is called "Filipino Warriors Sciences and Arts" is still as sweet smelling and perfectly very appropriate. Please, let us not mix up the unraveled inappropriateness of the word "KALI" with the "Great Filipino Warriors ARTs & Sciences" itself- which I believe all of us love, treasure, practice, propagate and perpetuate. It is clear that the brought out subject of inappropriateness is in the use of the word "KALI" only as a name in FMAS and is not in any way alluded to certain practitioners of FMAS as a person or group of practitioners to deride, descredit or alienate them. In fact, I believe that we are in UNITY despite the DIVERSITY of systems and philosophies when it comes to treasuring the "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" (FMAS) ng PILIPINAS. If non-Filipinos and Filipinos outside of the Philippines love it so dearly, how much more us- TRUE BLOODED FILIPINO WARRIORS who are here in the Philippines? Do you think we'll just leave the propagation, preservation, growth and perpetuation of this NATIONAL TREASURE AND HERITAGE of ours solely into the hands of other nations and race? WOW.... that would be one of the greatest tragedies in our generation and beloved country! Mabuhay ang "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" (FMAS) ng PILIPINAS! "Talibung Antike" --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 11:24:42 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Manong Jay,      On a reply to my post about "pagmamano"/ giving respect, I'm quite sure that they are doing this practice not just for the graying of your hair, even though Filipinos are predisposed inn their DNA to react in this way,hehehe.  This also brings us to this point of the bi-annual Kali extravaganza.  The community of arnisadors, escrimadors and kalistas may not agree on a few things, but I'm hoping that the "pagmamano" will be used as a powerful and unifying symbol not just for the Filipinos but for the FMA community as well.   With it's roots in pre-hispanic origin,  this is something the FMA community can identify with. -----Original Message----- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Fri, 8 Aug 2008 11:35 am Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Like most of the ED old timers, I would rather stay away from this bi-annual, quarterly, whatever event.   Here is my 2 centimos worth, which would literally mean next to nothing.  I repeat, this is my opinion, which is worth the above.   I agree that kali has "no historical, archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic basis."  Evidence seems to point in that direction.  Just like any reasonable man, I reserve the right to change my mind just in case somebody comes up with solid proof to the contrary.   Now, if unity means proscribing the use of the word "kali" at this p oint in time, that is probably impractical, near impossible and unfair.  That is like the proverbial putting the toothpaste back in the tube.   My brothers in the Phil. should realize that there are thousands of FMA practitioners in the US (and other countries all over the world) who call their art kali.  They did this in good conscience following their guro(s) as they should.  It would be unfair to tarnish them with the same brush and accuse them of propagating a lie, or criticizing arnis or eskrima, etc.  They love FMA which they just happen to call kali, as much as you cebuanos/ visayans, do.   So please keep this on a historical discussion level.  Many writers in the Phil. and many knowledgeably practitioners including several of you in this list are doing an admirable job of presenting facts and evidence regarding this issue.  Thank you, and may this lead to unity instead of exciting passions.   Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com       --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Red Gonzales wrote: From: Red Gonzales Subject: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 4:50 AM My friends,   Why dig this dead horse again?  WHY???   Kali may sound cool but it has no historical, archaeological, anthropological, and linguistic basis.   For those who use Kali, it may not be worth the argument, but for us Filipinos it is something that20destroys the very fiber of our dear martial culture.    Filipinos had stood against invaders of the motherland.  There is no reason we won’t stand against something that is the biggest LIE ever.   For those who would say there is, here is a challenge:  Show SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof.    SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof doesn’t include my instructor said so, it’s what we use, it’s cool, etc.   It doesn’t mean anything even if all your instructors call it Kali.  It’s not proof of its legitimacy as the name of FMA.   Why can’t we unite for the good of the art?  Ever remember how “Kali” say bad things about Arnis and Escrima?  That doesn’t constitute unity, or is it?   For those who are embarrassed for the constant criticism on Kali, finish this once and for all by giving SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof.    Otherwise, as Mr. McGrath said it may well become a bi-annual event or worse, something more often.   Maybe, maybe, if someone can produce such then we can resolve this for good.   But I doubt it that the same can be produced in the next thousand years.    Again, a challenge, PROVE, PROVE, PROVE.  Till then, might as well Kali Kamote.      Red Gonzales New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains /ph/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:51:41 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i cant speak Filipino, so i extend a great deal of patience to those who dont have english as their first language and extend a certain amount of grace to what might seem offensive and being shouted (capital letters in emails infer shouting or at least used to!). Red, i made my thoughts clear before and its in the archives. I know that some of the language i used was not understood and i'll critisise only when i am fluent in a couple of languages ; ) ill give my dog Kali a scratch on her belly for you! : ) best regards On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Red Gonzales wrote: > Sifu/Guro J Hosch, > > Could you kindly point out in my post where I said that ALL of you are > liers? > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 15:01:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Clarification re the word Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I rememember th lat great Bruce Lee sying dont fuss over the name. Thats all it is, just a name dont fuss over it. J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Talibung Antike >Sent: Aug 10, 2008 9:41 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] Clarification re the word "Kali" in FMAS > >"What's in a name?A ROSE by any other would smell as >sweet..."   William Shakespeare > > > >  > >But calling a beautiful sweet smelling "ROSE flower" an >"AIRPLANE" is inappropriate more so to call it "KALI-BANG" >or "FECES" > >  > >Almost all names have meanings and significance since time immemorial. >Early >peoples bestowed a name with definite consciousness of its meaning. > >Ex: > >Biblical: > >John (Gracious gift of Yahweh) > >Joseph (He shall add) > >Hannah (God has favored me) > > >Greek-Latin: > >Alexander (Helper of mankind) > >Clarence (famous) > >Margaret (Pearl) > >George (Farmer) > >  > >Hiligaynon:Ilong-Ilong (Nose) > > >isa Ka libo (one thousand) > >isa ka libo ka tuig (one thousand years) > >Libo (one thousand) > >Kalipay (Happiness) > >Kalisud (Difficulties) > >Lisud (difficult)Ka linong (peaceful) > >Ka limtan (to forget)Limtan (forget) > > >Na limtan (forgotten) > >  > >Visayan/Cebuano: > >Ka Libangon (to defecate) > > >Pilipino/Tagalog:Ka Libugan (lust) > > >Ka limutan (forget) > >  > > > >Hence, meaning and appropriateness is very important though it is still a >matter of choice. Like for example: a "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at >Sining" (FMAS) even if it is called "Filipino Warriors Sciences and Arts" is >still as >sweet smelling and perfectly very appropriate. > >  > >Please, let us not mix up the unraveled inappropriateness of the word "KALI" >with the "Great Filipino Warriors ARTs & >Sciences" itself- which I believe all of us love, treasure, practice, >propagate and >perpetuate. It is clear that the brought out subject of inappropriateness is >in the use of the word "KALI" only as a name in FMAS and is not in any way >alluded to certain practitioners of FMAS as a person or group of practitioners >to deride, descredit or alienate them. > > > >In fact, I believe that we are in UNITY despite the DIVERSITY of systems and >philosophies when it comes to >treasuring the "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" (FMAS) ng PILIPINAS. > > >If non-Filipinos and  Filipinos outside of the Philippines love it so dearly, >how much more us- TRUE >BLOODED FILIPINO WARRIORS who are here in the Philippines? > >Do you think we'll just leave the propagation, preservation, growth and >perpetuation of this NATIONAL TREASURE AND HERITAGE of ours solely into the >hands of >other nations and race? WOW.... that would be one of the greatest tragedies in >our >generation and beloved country! >Mabuhay ang "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" (FMAS) ng PILIPINAS! > > >  > >"Talibung Antike" >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:52:00 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] interesting interview with dan inosanto Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i have had the privelege to see the class registers for one year. very revealing. thank you sir. On Sat, Aug 9, 2008 at 5:51 PM, maurice gatdula > > i would like to add something that he said. in the interview, he mantion that he taught most of the classes at the school (wow, and many of the people looks past him now, even they rival mr inosanto. there is no respect there). -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest