Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #211 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Salutations, FWIW (Afern27@aol.com) 2. J.Hosch/Bruce Lee?? (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Kali (Mark Harrell) 4. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (Red Gonzales) 5. Re: Kali- The Mother Art??? (Talibung Antike) 6. Re: DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI (iPat) 7. "KALI the Mother of Eskrima and Arnis de Mano" (Talibung Antike) 8. It is what it is... (Lito Argallon) 9. Re: Re: Salutations, FWIW (nephalim1@aim.com) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:39:50 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "It may or may not.? If old timers in mexico do this and not of the later generations, then maybe this is something that was forced upon them rather than an old custom.? The Filipinos custom, or at least from my province, was to press the elders' wrist on the forehead of the one giving respect.? That is if the person is close enough to grab the wrist of the elder.? If it is of some distance away then the other salutation is used (I'm hoping you read the article and not just my introduction).? This salutation later morphed into the kissing of the hand (and not the wrist). Which Spain might have adpoted for themselves." I have seen Mexicans of a certain age kneel and kiss their elders' hands as a show of respect. They also kneel and press the elder's hands to their forehead. The younger generations don't do this anymore, but as I'm sure you know many traditions are cast aside by the youth and fade away. I suspect this is an inheritance from Spain as that is the only link between Mexico and the Phillippines. But maybe it is just a coincidence that the same practice is found in both countries. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 19:56:10 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] J.Hosch/Bruce Lee?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I rememember th lat great Bruce Lee sying dont fuss over the name. Thats all > it is, just a name dont fuss over it. > J Hosch > > What Bruce Lee has to do with this? Its Bruce going to change our FMA belief too, by posting this? Bruce Lee said this to his desciples, It's work for him, but not work for us, you know why?, We dont see the real deal I gues what we are trying to say is to much talk less walk. Claimed to bigger than they know get it? Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Mark Harrell To: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 00:08:04 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It sounds like people on both sides of the term Kali have pretty much made up their minds... The quarterly full verbal assault over "Kali" has so far accomplished nothing positive this time around. Does anyone have any information on the French or Italian fencing styles influencing Eskrima ? _________________________________________________________________ Get Windows Live and get whatever you need, wherever you are. Start here. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home_082008 --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 17:58:04 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pat my friend, English may not be my mother tongue but the Philippines is the 3rd English speaking nation in the world,  only next to the USA and GB.  No use in implying that I don't understand what you mean.  It's a fact that I have not called all of you liars.  I'm afraid you're putting words into my mouth Pat my friend.  Show me which part of my post did I call everybody liars.  Kindly show me.  Now that you have mentioned that you are not fluent in Filipino/Tagalog (or any other languages in the Philippine archipelago), would it be possible that you, who is not a native to the Philippines, know more of the true and real nature of the word Kali than someone who was born, raised, and living in the Philippines like me or Talibung Antike or any other Filipinos who had revealed the lies behind Kali?  Or the history of our martial culture?  Could it be proven that what you know is indeed true and what I know is the lie? If a person knows that something is a lie and he continues to believe in it and disseminate it to other people, what does that make him?  An honest person?  That wouldn't make sense in English, don't you think? You are right, words in capslock imply shouting.  However, if you try to reread my post again you'll see that only certain words were capitalized.  As a native  English gentleman, I know you know that the intention with the capitalization of a few words were for emphasis rather than to shout at you.  Now that I have answered your concerns Pat my friend, let me repeat the challenge that you seem to conveniently avoid:  show solid and legitimate proof (there you go, no more capslock, just answer).   About the points that had previously given in the Kali Bi-Annual event, nothing holds much.  No basis.  Kindly show real and legitimate proof.  I'll await your proof my friend. Red Gonzales --- On Sun, 8/10/08, iPat wrote: From: iPat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, 10 August, 2008, 11:51 PM i cant speak Filipino, so i extend a great deal of patience to those who dont have english as their first language and extend a certain amount of grace to what might seem offensive and being shouted (capital letters in emails infer shouting or at least used to!). Red, i made my thoughts clear before and its in the archives. I know that some of the language i used was not understood and i'll critisise only when i am fluent in a couple of languages ; ) ill give my dog Kali a scratch on her belly for you! : ) best regards On Sun, Aug 10, 2008 at 11:42 AM, Red Gonzales wrote: > Sifu/Guro J Hosch, > > Could you kindly point out in my post where I said that ALL of you are > liers? > -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 21:36:58 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art??? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "I rememember th lat great Bruce Lee sying dont fuss over the name. Thats all it is, just a name dont fuss over it." J Hosch ============= Why Bruce Lee? He's not a Filipino brought up in a different culture, setting and values more so he has nothing to do with our Treasured Philippine National Heritage. Please let us not drag into these issues, those who has no concern whatsoever and those who has nothing to do with our concerns- regarding one of our National Treasures as Filipinos the: "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" or "Filipino Warriors Sciences and Arts" of the Philippines- (Eskrima and Arnis) Thanks.. ============= "KALI the Mother of Eskrima and Arnis de Mano" according to Mr. Dan Inosanto  in the following link:   http://www.ronbalicki.com/about_dan_kali.htm  ============= Facts, direct personal testimonies and irrefutable evidences are the building blocks of TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE. But although TRUE KNOWLEDGE is power, "CHOICE" is more powerful because it can override TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE. And we respect ones "CHOICE" after knowing the real meanings of the name/word KALI, its essence and appropriateness in (FMAS) "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" ng Pilipinas. BTW FYI, "Talibung" has been our Warriors Sword for centuries in ANTIQUE, PANAY ISLAND , PHILIPPINES and until now just like our great forebears we highly respect and treasure it including the care, arts, and sciences of making and using it.   The Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales one of the first Filipino Eskrimadores who brought openly the (FMAS) "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" to the United States is from Bgy.Igania, Sibalom, Antique. His native town of Sibalom is famous for its "Talibung". From my great paternal ancestors, grandparents down to my uncles and cousins including me lived our lives (some died in duels with it) with "Talibungs" as a standard issue in our homes. And ever since we NEVER call our TRADITIONAL WARRIORS FIGHTING ARTS as "KALI" because we understand and know fully well by heart the true meaning and essence of the word "KALI". Hence the biggest question is: who knows and can shed greater light to it other than we do- the natives "TUMANDOK" of PANAY ISLAND PHILIPPINES?   It reminds me of a court trial scene in a movie of long ago. "Shake hands with the Devil"... the setting was Ireland . Charged for treason, the accused freedom fighter was asked if she has anything to say before the verdict. And she said: "What is an ENGLISH JUDGE doing in an IRISH COURT ?"   Anyhow, life is a matter of CHOICE and we highly respect that freedom to choose. After all that is what our great Filipino National Heroes (from Lapu-Lapu to Dr. Jose Rizal all great Filipino Warriors) have courageously fought for- FREEDOM!   Respectfully,   "Talibung Antike" --- On Fri, 8/8/08, Terrence David Reyes wrote: From: Terrence David Reyes Subject: [Eskrima] Kali- The Mother Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, August 8, 2008, 11:39 PM So Kali isn't the Mother Artt? Best Regards, David Reyes _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:15:08 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] DIGGING THE LONG BURIED DEAD HORSE NAMED KALI Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net red, i cannot continue with this. You are now confusing posts with others as mine. you are attributing claims i have not made to me and asking me to prove them. As i said, the archives will clearly identify what i have said now and in the past. Best Regards, Pat --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 07:40:48 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] "KALI the Mother of Eskrima and Arnis de Mano" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ==================================================== "KALI the Mother of Eskrima and Arnis de Mano" according to Mr. Dan Inosanto  in the following link:   http://www.ronbalicki.com/about_dan_kali.htm  =================================================== Facts, direct personal testimonies and irrefutable evidences are the building blocks of TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE. But although TRUE KNOWLEDGE is power, "CHOICE" is more powerful because it can override TRUTH and KNOWLEDGE. And we respect ones "CHOICE" after knowing the real meanings of the name/word KALI, its essence and appropriateness in (FMAS) "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" ng Pilipinas. BTW FYI, "Talibung" has been our Warriors Sword for centuries in ANTIQUE, PANAY ISLAND , PHILIPPINES and until now just like our great forebears we highly respect and treasure it including the care, arts, and sciences of making and using it.   The Great Grandmaster Angel Cabales one of the first Filipino Eskrimadores who brought openly the (FMAS) "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining" to the United States is from Bgy.Igania, Sibalom, Antique. His native town of Sibalom is famous for its "Talibung". From my great paternal ancestors, grandparents down to my uncles and cousins including me lived our lives (some died in duels with it) with "Talibungs" as a standard issue in our homes. And ever since we NEVER call our TRADITIONAL WARRIORS FIGHTING ARTS as "KALI" because we understand and know fully well by heart the true meaning and essence of the word "KALI". Hence the biggest question is: who knows and can shed greater light to it other than we do- the natives "TUMANDOK" of PANAY ISLAND PHILIPPINES?   It reminds me of a court trial scene in a movie of long ago. "Shake hands with the Devil"... the setting was Ireland . Charged for treason, the accused freedom fighter was asked if she has anything to say before the verdict. And she said: "What is an ENGLISH JUDGE doing in an IRISH COURT ?"   Anyhow, life is a matter of CHOICE and we highly respect that freedom to choose. After all that is what our great Filipino National Heroes (from Lapu-Lapu to Dr. Jose Rizal all great Filipino Warriors) have courageously fought for- FREEDOM!   Respectfully,   "Talibung Antike" --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Lito Argallon To: Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 08:25:20 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] It is what it is... Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings, I must say the past couple of weeks have been great reading with all the information being shared about the origins of " Kali " and the " Salutations ". I was very impressed with the opinions and insight provided. Here is my 2 cents. Most of Theory's presented were interesting. The fighting arts of the Philippines were founded and created during a time of necessity. Before the Spanish era the Philippines were a bunch indigenous tribes and societies that lived and fought with one another. The various cultures that were present during this time also made their mark. Includes but not limited to various Indochina/ Asian and Muslim cultures and Pacific islands influence as well. The people during this time period all ready knew how to fight and defend themselves since they fought amongst each other for land and other sacred beliefs. The " Martial Arts" of this era was influenced by many diverse cultures. Most of us including myself know of the systems that were created post Spanish and Japanese Era's. From that point the names and salutations came from the men and the areas they were from. North, Central, and Southern Philippines has their defining influences. The FMA has no traditional structure and components like " Karate, Judo, Tae Kwon Do" and other mainstream " Martial Arts". There is no " Kata's" , No ranking systems, No structured names for the moves or techniques. It was a plain and simple, straight to the point style of survival. Basic common sense, physical ability, and ingenious deceptiveness helped make the practitioner a formidable opponent.The styles today have been influenced by the men who taught us. This has been done from generation to generation. The way I fight today is very different from the way my Grandfathers fought. And the way I train is also different. And it is so with the way your teachers have trained and instructed you and the way you instruct or train others. The FMA is fun, interesting, insightful, and dangerous. It is what it is. Try not conceptualize or change it. You can't. None of us lived in the Era it was formed. We all just practice the art. Some of us claim to Know, But don't really know or have no idea. They just pretend to know and influence others. But, be careful. You may come across someone who really know's then you'll be assed out. With regards and respect. Lito Iloilo, Panay Guam Stockton, CA Seattle, Wa " Hit Hard Hit Fast " _________________________________________________________________ Get Windows Live and get whatever you need, wherever you are. Start here. http://www.windowslive.com/default.html?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_Home_082008 --__--__-- Message: 9 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW Date: Mon, 11 Aug 2008 15:11:11 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It could just be coincidence.? I'm just wondering how sometimes, because it was occupied by some foreign country, why the transfer of technology/culture usually comes from the occuying force and not the other way around.? This is?in?lieu of traditions that?have already existed before the foreigners' arrival.? I guess any form of showing humility and respect is pretty universal but then having imposed the sign of respect on the Mexicans might have been just a transfer.? It would be a great find if there were records (pre-hispanic) that would say otherwise to Spanish influence. Jose -----Original Message----- From: Afern27@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sun, 10 Aug 2008 7:39 pm Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW "It may or may not.? If old timers in mexico do this and not of the later generations, then maybe this is something that was forced upon them rather than an old custom.? The Filipinos custom, or at least from my province, was to press the elders' wrist on the forehead of the one giving respect.? That is if the person is close enough to grab the wrist of the elder.? If it is of some distance away then the other salutation is used (I'm hoping you read the article and not just my introduction).? This salutation later morphed into the kissing of the hand (and not the wrist). Which Spain might have adpoted for themselves." I have seen Mexicans of a certain age kneel and kiss their elders' hands as a show of respect. They also kneel and press the elder's hands to their forehead. The younger generations don't do this anymore, but as I'm sure you know many traditions are cast aside by the youth and fade away. I suspect this is an inheritance from Spain as that is the only link between Mexico and the Phillippines. But maybe it is just a coincidence that the same practice is found in both countries. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest