Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:13:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #213 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.3 required=5.0 tests=MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR, NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: * Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Spanish school of fencing (Afern27@aol.com) 2. Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history (Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi) 3. RE: Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history (2@msfencing.org) 4. Re: French/Italian styles (adam babb) 5. Dekiti Tirsia Siradas (Tyler Murphy) 6. Spanish, French, Italian, German, Filipino, 1000 Island Fencing (Eric Taimanglo) 7. Re: KALI THE RESURRECTION (ILDEFONSO ODAL) 8. Western fencing links to the FMA Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #212 - 8 msgs (Pananandta@aol.com) 9. Re: KALI THE RESURRECTION (Ray) 10. KALI definition (Rich Acosta) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:11:27 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Spanish school of fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Those videos show rapier fencing, which became popular relatively late in Spain's history. Before that the Spanish used a medieval style of swordsmanship...it is the medieval style that is supposed to be like FMA. Not the rapier style. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 14:47:13 -1000 From: Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'd like to know where this information comes from.  I mean no disrespect when I ask - I used to believe the same things.  Now I don't.  Unless I can see a true scholarly established connection between arts with documented history, I think making such assertions is erroneous and irresponsible.  For years I told people FMA was influenced by Indian and Arabic styles also, just b/c that's what we were told - just b/c Indians and Arabs traded with the Philippines (though not to a huge extent), so it just made sense.  However, there is absolutely no evidence that Indian lathi, kalaripayyatu, cheribaya or any type of Southern Indian fighting styles influenced FMA, though a few pics look close.  There are only a few ways people can move and strategize how to attack and defend and just to say they influenced one or the other without 'smoking gun' evidence just doesn't make good history. For instance, I don't know how many times I've come up with moves, disarms, throws - etc. that look so familiar to other arts.  I remember once the Gracie Jiu Jitsu teacher at our academy saw us do our disarms and throws and said, "You guys do the same thing like us.  Does this have jiu jitsu?"  I told em no, and said, "All great minds think alike." Lastly, before anybody keeps on going on the thread on how Spanish systems influenced FMA, people should take into consideration that Spain had the largest naval armada in Europe at one point and time.  A substantial amount of them were MERCENARIES.  And nobody talks about the fact that the Northern African Muslims and Arabs occupied Spain for 800 or so years. So are we to say that eskrima is really an Arabic bladed art that came via Spain? Where's the evidence? Again the need for responsible historical scholarship. Respectfully, -Erwin legaspi --------------------------------------------------------------- > Message: 6 > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) > From: James Nordstrom > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] French/Italian styles > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Does anyone have any information on the French or Italian > fencing styles > influencing Eskrima ?  > What French or Italian styles? > IMHO the Germans likely > influenced FMA more than the Spanish. > Just look at the messer video > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related and > you will see > how much of FMA came from the German system. > >  Cheers > Jim --__--__-- Message: 3 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 20:58:49 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I know of no historically documented links. However, I would think that each group's fighting arts would have influenced the other group's fighting art as they fought each other and made adjustments to their styles. I had once heard that Filipinos copied the Rapier and Dagger duels and training they saw Spanish sailors engaging in. However, I have taught historical Spanish Rapier and Dagger at my fencing salle and the bladework doesn't look anything like any Eskrima I have ever seen, not even Espada y daga. However the triangular foot work and stepping off the line of attack is similar. The Spanish also had an indigenous knife fighting style which may have influenced the development of the Filipino style. In their national styles of swordsmanship the German and Italian Fencing Masters of the 1300s taught the same basic cutting angles I see used in Eskrima. Self-Defense is all based on human kinesiology and the properties of physics and so I think that given enough time isolated warring peoples would eventually figure out what works and what doesn't. I see a great many similarities between German Half-Swording and the Goju-Shorei Weapons Systems use of a walking cane for self-defense. And the joint locks used by the Germans during the 1300s often look very similar to the ones used in jujutsu. I think folks often just discovered what worked and used it and that is why some martial arts are fond of saying "all martial arts are really just one art." Blessings Rez >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi [mailto:elegaspi@hawaii.edu] >> Sent: Tuesday, August 12, 2008 7:47 PM >> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Subject: [Eskrima] Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima >> history >> >> I'd like to know where this information comes from. I mean no disrespect >> when >> I ask - I used to believe the same things. Now I don't. Unless I can >> see a >> true scholarly established connection between arts with documented >> history, I >> think making such assertions is erroneous and irresponsible. For years I >> told >> people FMA was influenced by Indian and Arabic styles also, just b/c >> that's >> what we were told - just b/c Indians and Arabs traded with the >> Philippines >> (though not to a huge extent), so it just made sense. However, there is >> absolutely no evidence that Indian lathi, kalaripayyatu, cheribaya or any >> type >> of Southern Indian fighting styles influenced FMA, though a few pics look >> close. There are only a few ways people can move and strategize how to >> attack >> and defend and just to say they influenced one or the other without >> 'smoking >> gun' evidence just doesn't make good history. >> >> For instance, I don't know how many times I've come up with moves, >> disarms, >> throws - etc. that look so familiar to other arts. I remember once the >> Gracie >> Jiu Jitsu teacher at our academy saw us do our disarms and throws and >> said, >> "You guys do the same thing like us. Does this have jiu jitsu?" I told >> em >> no, and said, "All great minds think alike." >> >> Lastly, before anybody keeps on going on the thread on how Spanish >> systems >> influenced FMA, people should take into consideration that Spain had the >> largest naval armada in Europe at one point and time. A substantial >> amount of >> them were MERCENARIES. And nobody talks about the fact that the Northern >> African Muslims and Arabs occupied Spain for 800 or so years. >> >> So are we to say that eskrima is really an Arabic bladed art that came >> via >> Spain? >> >> Where's the evidence? >> >> Again the need for responsible historical scholarship. >> >> Respectfully, >> -Erwin legaspi >> >> >> --------------------------------------------------------------- >> > Message: 6 >> > Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 12:06:49 -0700 (PDT) >> > From: James Nordstrom >> > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> > Subject: [Eskrima] French/Italian styles >> > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> > >> > Does anyone have any information on the French or Italian >> > fencing styles >> > influencing Eskrima ? >> > What French or Italian styles? >> > IMHO the Germans likely >> > influenced FMA more than the Spanish. >> > Just look at the messer video >> > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related and >> > you will see >> > how much of FMA came from the German system. >> > >> > Cheers >> > Jim >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 19:36:57 -0700 (PDT) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] French/Italian styles To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net the Germans during the 14Th century where some of the best soldier and mercenaries so anyone who was somebody had Germans in there employ.men like Hans talhoffer, Sigmund ringneck wrote there  knowledge and traveled and  trained men all over  Europe also look at George silver of England.also the french Italian and Spanish styles are very similar .here is a good source to answer some questions  http://www.aemma.org/ Adam --- On Tue, 8/12/08, jay de leon wrote: From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] French/Italian styles To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 3:04 PM Looks like those guys were spying on my espada y daga workouts.  quite revealing tape.   mr. nordstrom, maybe you could educate us.   i am just guessing whoever uses the term "spanish fencing" meant learned from the spaniards who were in the Phil. during those times, historically the friars and the officers.   so praytell, tell us how german fencing got to influence FMA, since most of us cannot distinguish german, french, italian and thousand island fencing.   thank you.   jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Tue, 8/12/08, James Nordstrom wrote: From: James Nordstrom Subject: [Eskrima] French/Italian styles To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 12:06 PM Does anyone have any information on the French or Italian fencing styles influencing Eskrima ?  What French or Italian styles? IMHO the Germans likely influenced FMA more than the Spanish. Just look at the messer video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38sVdx7nzhQ&feature=related and you will see how much of FMA came from the German system.  Cheers Jim _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 05:08:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Murphy To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello all, I have never heard of this style of FMA before but, this teacher is coming to Cincinnati, Ohio for a 2 day seminar and I have been asked to go to it. Here is the page. http://www.dtskali.com/calendar.htm I am wondering if anyone here is familiar with Grand Tuhon Nene Tortal or his style. Any info would be appreciated. Tyler --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 22:47:52 -0600 From: "Eric Taimanglo" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish, French, Italian, German, Filipino, 1000 Island Fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "Give it a name." - Things To Do In Denver When You're Dead" While I like seeing historical connect the dots discussions that make me go, "Ah-ha!", sometimes they get tinged with bitterness, and people get mad. To the bitter people; do you not realize that long, long ago, someone (in France, Spain, Mactan, Beijing, Oberammergau) figured out that, "Hey, if I put my (insert object) above my head so it winds up between my head and the other guy's (insert object), my head won't hurt!" ? There are only so many ways the body can move... is it so hard for you to conceive that over thousands of years of research, trial and error, and combat, that maybe, perhaps, what we all have is not Spanish, French, Italian, Filipino, Chinese, etc., but a set of principles and concepts that make a lot of sense when applied against another human being? Eric Taimanglo Taji Kali (yes, yes, I call it Kali) Training Group --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 01:32:27 -0700 (PDT) From: ILDEFONSO ODAL Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI THE RESURRECTION To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Red, "...In fact, the arguments, you have raised were mostly derived from The Filipino Martial Arts and various writings on Kali in the US.... Does anybody have any SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof? Mr. Odal you might have some. I would love to hear about it. I’ll be waiting."... My father is from General Santos, Mindanao that makes me part Visayan, sad to say though I am not well verse in the Visayan language nor the entire culture and tradition. My desire to learn from what is written and I have read do sometimes conflict with the truth. Very seldom that I would voice out my opinion or comments because I learn more from listening to you, Master Jay, Ray, Sir Jorge, Talibung Antike, Daniel, Marc, Gat Puno, James and the other veteran of ED. Argument is not my intention, enlightenment is what I seek. Pardon my ignorance, thank you for the new data and I stand corrected... Gumagalang Jun FFALV www.filipinofightingartsintl.com http://martialartsfriends.com/icodale7 http://communitylink.reviewjournal.com/lvrj/shotokankarate ----- Original Message ---- From: Red Gonzales To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Friday, August 8, 2008 4:52:56 AM Subject: [Eskrima] KALI THE RESURRECTION Mr. Odal my friend, I’m sorry to disagree with you. Kali does not mean a stick in Visayan. I can speak Hiligaynon, Cebuano, and a little Karay-a. I have family members in Negros, Panay, Cebu, Leyte, and even in Siquijor. I’m with Talibung Antike, who like me, speak the language. May I ask from what part of the Philippines are you and do you speak Visayan? If not, where did you get the “stick” definition of Kali? I’m 100% sure you are quoting Yambao, to which list member James Sy had extensively written here. Sy had previously cited, like Dr. Nepangue, that there is no Kali-radman in Visayan, only Kina-adman. No Kali in there. As with regards the supposed Spanish ban on weapons, when was it? What decree was it and who issued it? I’m afraid such is just another rehash of the old Kali myth. About the dances in the Visayas, sadly, there is no mention of Kali. The Sinulog is being celebrated in honor of the Señor Sto. Niño, who is from the Catholic Church, not from the supposed Muslim or Islamic Kali. Inconsistent…don’t you think? And yes, Sinulog is not ancient FYI. Who were the Eskrimadors who said “dances have always been Used?” I bet it is The Filipino Martial Arts of Guro Daniel Inosanto. There are more than 100, not 90, languages in the Philippines. If you are Filipino, you would know that the northern, central, and southern classification of FMA were Inosanto’s and is unknown in the Philippine archipelago. Our brothers in Mindanao do not use Kali as the name of their systems. Macachor have stayed in Mindanao for several years and he was just disappointed not to find any single Muslim Kali GM, only Eskrima GMs. The Muslim motif has already been shown not to fit the puzzle. The Muslim arts are called Silat and Kuntaw. Prof. Jocano had previously said that you just could not conclude that a certain word came from another just simply because they appear similar, like in your example of Kali and Tjakalele. Tjakalele is a war dance, not a martial art. If we accept your logic, then Kali would be nothing but a dance. Kali the Goddess is Hindu not Islamic. Inconsistent…again, don’t you think? If you choose to believe the Kamot Lihok definition of Guro Inosanto, then you would agree that it is Cebuano, right? If it is Cebuano, how can it be Muslim or something from Mindanao? Maybe somebody can help me. I’m confused of the inconsistencies here. All in all I don’t see any SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof. In fact, the arguments, you have raised were mostly derived from The Filipino Martial Arts and various writings on Kali in the US. Still, the question remains: Does anybody have any SOLID and LEGITIMATE proof? Mr. Odal you might have some. I would love to hear about it. I’ll be waiting. Red Gonzales New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Pananandta@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:24:57 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Western fencing links to the FMA Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #212 - 8 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I wrote an article on the links of Western/Spanish fencing to the Filipino martial arts in the July 2003 issue of the magazine Filipino Martial Arts published by Unique Publications. Perhaps, ED'ers would like to check it out. By the way, I have an extensive collection of Western fencing books dating back to 1475. APM In a message dated 8/12/2008 7:25:50 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: Does anyone have any information on the French or Italian fencing styles influencing Eskrima ? **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI THE RESURRECTION Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:29:18 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sorry I didn't catch this one... Folks, please trim/truncate/edit your replies (shorten them). There is really no need to quote the quote of a quote msg. Thanks. Ray --__--__-- Message: 10 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 10:08:19 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] KALI definition Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net According to Mataw Guro Louelle Lledo who grew up in Zamboanga Mindanao and studied Kuntawan, the term Kali is an acronym created from combination of the words Karanungan (knowledge) and Lihim (secret) thus meaning "Secret Knowledge". He does not claim that it Kali is the mother art of Arnis and Escrima. Mataw Guro Lou is the founder of his own system called Amara Arkanis. http://www.amara-arkanis.com/ Regards, Rich Acosta Kuntaw Kali Kruzada Kali Arnis International Philippine Council of Kali Eskrima Arnis Masters -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest