Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #214 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Salutations, FWIW (nephalim1@aim.com) 2. Re: Dekiti Tirsia Siradas (Mike Casto) 3. Re: Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history (Afern27@aol.com) 4. The origins of FMA and the term Kali (Guro Dennis Servaes) 5. Re: Spanish school of fencing (Bill Debuque) 6. Spanish/FMA et. al. (James Nordstrom) 7. RE: The origins of FMA and the term Kali (2@msfencing.org) --__--__-- Message: 1 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:55:48 -0400 From: nephalim1@aim.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fwiw, also, sorry. does anyone know what continent the tamarind is native of?? A mexican friend of mind loves it and they have it in the Philippines also. My apologies Ray for deviating from the FMA -----Original Message----- From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, 12 Aug 2008 11:34 am Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW fwiw, again. ? i know of a scholarly group currently researching the historical possibility (authenticity?) of the galleon trade being responsible for bringing FMA to Mexico. ? Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com --- On Tue, 8/12/08, tim wrote: From: tim Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Salutations, FWIW To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, August 12, 2008, 7:26 AM the influence did not go just one way, and there was also cultural exchange between the philippines and mexico. remember that the manila-acapulco galleon trade took place for 250 years, from 1565-1810 when mexican independence disrupted the practice. tim _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:56:22 -0400 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dekiti Tirsia Siradas Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I've trained with him a couple of times. He's a blast to train with. Very energetic and personable. The material I've seen has been good. I'd recommend attending the seminar if you can. Mike Tyler Murphy wrote: > Hello all, > > I have never heard of this style of FMA before but, this teacher is coming to Cincinnati, Ohio for a 2 day seminar and I have been asked to go to it. Here is the page. > > http://www.dtskali.com/calendar.htm > > > I am wondering if anyone here is familiar with Grand Tuhon Nene Tortal or his style. Any info would be appreciated. > > Tyler > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:37:27 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Italians, Germans, and the need for accurate eskrima history Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net "And nobody talks about the fact that the Northern African Muslims and Arabs occupied Spain for 800 or so years. So are we to say that eskrima is really an Arabic bladed art that came via Spain?" When the Romans first encountered the inhabitants of Spain, they were impressed by the weapons that the Spanish already had. In fact the Romans adapted the sword design they saw there to make their own gladius. So the use of blades was known to the Spanish before the Arabs came along. However....it is true that the Moors inhabited Spain for over 700 years. And I do happen to think that they did have an influence on the arts of the Spanish. You can see this I think in the mysticism sorrounding Destreza fencing. Also, the design of the Spanish knife or "navaja" has a very distinctive curve to it. Very reminiscent of some of the Muslim swords. It's an interesting subject for further investigation, that's for sure. **************Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-BMW-128-2008/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00050000000017 ) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 12:57:02 -0700 (PDT) From: Guro Dennis Servaes To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] The origins of FMA and the term Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Greetings Arguments regarding origins of FMA and the term Kali are an incessant part of FMA that never seems to end, but I’ve been very interested in finding the truth, in spite of difficulties to research that topic. FMA like the Philippine culture itself has been influenced by a blend of different cultures and if we connect the dots we discover what parts of the Philippines were most likely to be influenced by what, and when there are similarities in fighting techniques, styles, and systems it is more than mere conjecture, or coincidence. A lot of the blabbering rabid discussions are based on speculation and supposition based on biased imaginations and Bruce Lee sayings, and when the arguments are ‘so and so says thus and he is a deity to our system,’ that proves nothing but ignorance and a person setting him or herself up for disappointments when proved wrong. I have some European manuals and I have trained in different martial arts. A lot of what people misconstrue as European training manuals are actually collections of events that were recorded and how their training influenced the outcome of life and death encounters. In other words books of fluke events that capture how a particular technique adapted to the actual battle situation. Anyone that has ever fought knows your subconscious will come up with incredible stuff you never saw before. We all have beliefs others refer to as being superstitious and sometimes maybe we become confused by what we don‘t understand. The superstitious will often call what they don’t understand weird, evil and of the devil. Knuckle heads will attack anyone that doesn’t think just like they do regardless how many times they get proven wrong. Those fluke events can be attributed to luck, God, anting anting, our subconscious and a lot of other factors. Lots of professional athletes have superstitions or strong beliefs, but it is the basics that practiced will improve fighting, and practicing the sports that improves the outcome of sports. One person believes in everything and someone else believes in nothing, but if they were to listen to one another they will find out they are much the same. Not that either one is right or wrong, but they will argue for ever. If anyone knows of web pages that discuss either the origins of FMA or the term Kali I am interested. I will place links at http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/links.html I have an magazine article at http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/serrada_magazine.html and it came out Dec. 97, and it discusses the origins of FMA and the term Kali. Train hard and have fun! Dennis --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 11:38:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Spanish school of fencing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The Luna Brothers of Ilocos was supposed to have operated a Spanish Fencing "Club" in Barcelona in the late 1800s.  Rizal himself was a regular in that Club and was also an excellent Spanish Fencer.   Based on the foregoing, it would be safe to assume that the martially-oriented members of the Philippine "Illustrado" Class in the late 1800s have varying degrees of training in Spanish Fencing.   If these "Illustrados" have also trained in the FMA, it would be hard not to assume that they have blended these 2 styles to arrive at something which works best for them.                --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 15:04:16 -0700 (PDT) From: James Nordstrom To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish/FMA et. al. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Howanic **So I guess then that Tagalog was not influenced by the Spanish either...** I am not speaking about a language; I am speaking about a martial art. **Of Course the Spanish arts influenced the FMA. It's obvious. The Spanish had good techniques and they occupied the Philippines.** No, the Spanish did not influence the FMA.  In fact my opinion is that the Filipino warriors actively resisted adopting Spanish fencing methods and only developed counters to Spanish fencing methods. In a nut shell, with 300 odd years of Spanish influence on FMA the Filipinos never adopted complex hilts and the techniques to go with them.  Even simple hilts allow a person a whole range of binding and actions along the blade that FMA does not have. **It’s not much of a stretch to believe the Spanish Arts influenced the FMA. Many of the techniques in the YouTube video I have seen in the Filipino Arts.** It is a stretch to think that Spanish arts did influence the Filipino arts beyond Filipinos developing counters.  The problem is that people see the commonalities between the arts and never seek to understand the uniqueness of the arts.  They see the commonalities and say “they are the same”. Again with 300 odd years of occupation and cultural/martial cross fertilization the Filipinos never adopted the complex hilt and the techniques to go with them (those techniques well know to Europeans at this time).  A descending (right shoulder-to-left hip) cut is just a descending (right shoulder-to-left hip) cut, nothing unique about that and is common to every bladed system. **How much do you know about the FMA???”** Ah the old appeal to authority argument.  Well, okay I will whip out my credentials. 6 years Shou Shu Karate. 1.5 years Silat (not a big Swede type art) 2.5 years Tai Chi Chuang (Xiang) (empty hands/saber/staff) 4 years Olympic Style saber fencing: D ranked and USFA Level 1 certified instructor (stopped fencing in 2001) 8 years study with Maestro Dexter Labanog: certified graduate and instructor of Original Giron http://www.bahalana.com/certified_associate_instructors.htm ~ 130 hours study of the Fencing Masters Program at San Jose State University http://www.fencingmastersprogram.com/ And 10 years of actively working with original and translated Historical European Martial Art manuals. ==================== Mr De Leon **“Looks like those guys were spying on my espada y daga workouts.  quite revealing tape.**   I apologize I was being sarcastic; there is no chance of German dussage practice influencing the FMA.  However, it is a prime example of parallel development.  Spanish fencing is a pretty loose term.  Most people think rapier fencing when they say it, when in fact the Spanish school of the sword practiced techniques from grappling to two-handed great swords (about 5’-5’4” total length).  Different schools would focus on different weapons. By the time the conquest of the Philippines began in earnest (about 1564 by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi IIRC) the institution of friars being the armed combatants had died.  Granted there were likely a few retired soldiers in the mix, but no institution of martial combative training as there had been during the Middle Ages and Early Renaissance. The mix of soldiers the Spanish would have conquered the PI with would have been rodello, pike and shot.  The common soldier would have been armed with a shield, sword, dagger and armored with anything from padded, chain maile or plate armor.  The transition swords (simple hilt to simple complex hilt) would have looked similar to this http://www.arts-swords.com/item/DT-DT2161.asp . Add a shield to the mix and you have an impressive fighting pairing.  =========================== **Those videos show rapier fencing, which became popular relatively late in Spain's history.  Before that the Spanish used a medieval style of swordsmanship...it is the medieval style that is supposed to be like FMA.  Not the rapier style** No, the rapier style of Spanish fencing started in the early 1500’s and would have well developed by the conquest of the PI.  The “Medieval Style” of sword combat is very similar to FMA, but then compairing similarity in a system does not mean a transfer of knowledge or technique.  Again, even the Medieval Style of fight had binds and actions along the blade allowed by the simple hilt of their swords.  Other than the kapilin (sp) I know of no other historical PI sword with a simple hilt, all are just blade and handle.  By the time of the conquest the simple to complex hilted swords would have been well in play by the Spanish forces.  ======================= **I'd like to know where this information comes from.** IMHO it’s a myth that has been repeated so often that it has wrongly become the truth to most people.   Cheers Jim --__--__-- Message: 7 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The origins of FMA and the term Kali Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:57:06 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Servaes, You said that "A lot of what people misconstrue as European training manuals are actually collections of events that were recorded..." I have been teaching Classical Fencing and Historical Western Swordsmanship at my salle since 1980 and am familiar with a good many of the historical European Fencing manuscripts which the old masters wrote. However, I am very interested in learning more about the ones you mention. Could you please name three or four of them for me. Thanks, Rez Johnson >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Guro Dennis Servaes [mailto:dennisservaes@yahoo.com] >> I have some European manuals and I have trained in different martial >> arts. A lot of what people misconstrue as European training manuals are >> actually collections of events that were recorded and how their training >> influenced the outcome of life and death encounters. In other words books >> of fluke events that capture how a particular technique adapted to the >> actual battle situation. Anyone that has ever fought knows your >> subconscious will come up with incredible stuff you never saw before. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest