Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #215 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Spanish/FMA et. al. (Tom Howanic) 2. Awesome. Now I am talking to men who make sense. (Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi) 3. The origins of FMA and the term Kali (Guro Dennis Servaes) 4. Re: KALI definition (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Dekiti Tirsia Siradas (james jr. sy) 6. Re: Spanish school of fencing (tim) 7. Yawyan (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Tom Howanic" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Spanish/FMA et. al. Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:39:22 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Your arguments still do not support your asertion that the FMA were not influenced by the spanish style(s). You asert that there was NO influence. The similarities are obvious to most others FMA. To say that the FMA were not influenced by the Spanish styles is something you cannot possible know for sure. You are arguing from an absolutist position. Finally, I asked about your FMA experience. The other arts you studied are irrelevant to this disagreement. You have studied one FMA. The Filipino Arts are very rich and studying one FMA does not make you an authority on all. Mentioning a few differences does not lend credibility to your argument. Do your homework. The Filipino uses anything that works...including an enemy's techniques. ----- Original Message ----- From: "James Nordstrom" To: Sent: Wednesday, August 13, 2008 5:04 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Spanish/FMA et. al. > Mr. Howanic > **So I guess then that Tagalog was not influenced by the Spanish > either...** > I am not speaking about a language; I am speaking about a martial > art. > **Of Course the Spanish arts influenced the FMA. It's obvious. The > Spanish had good techniques and they occupied the Philippines.** > No, the > Spanish did not influence the FMA. In fact my opinion is that the Filipino > warriors actively resisted adopting Spanish fencing methods and only > developed > counters to Spanish fencing methods. > In a nut shell, with 300 odd years of > Spanish influence on FMA the Filipinos never adopted complex hilts and the > techniques to go with them. Even simple hilts allow a person a whole range > of > binding and actions along the blade that FMA does not have. > **It's not much of > a stretch to believe the Spanish Arts influenced the FMA. Many of the > techniques in the YouTube video I have seen in the Filipino Arts.** > It is a > stretch to think that Spanish arts did influence the Filipino arts beyond > Filipinos developing counters. > The problem is that people see the > commonalities between the arts and never seek to understand the uniqueness > of > the arts. They see the commonalities and say "they are the same". Again > with > 300 odd years of occupation and cultural/martial cross fertilization the > Filipinos never adopted the complex hilt and the techniques to go with > them > (those techniques well know to Europeans at this time). A descending > (right > shoulder-to-left hip) cut is just a descending (right shoulder-to-left > hip) > cut, nothing unique about that and is common to every bladed system. > **How > much do you know about the FMA???"** > Ah the old appeal to authority argument. > Well, okay I will whip out my credentials. > 6 years Shou Shu Karate. > 1.5 years > Silat (not a big Swede type art) > 2.5 years Tai Chi Chuang (Xiang) (empty > hands/saber/staff) > 4 years Olympic Style saber fencing: D ranked and USFA > Level 1 certified instructor (stopped fencing in 2001) > 8 years study with > Maestro Dexter Labanog: certified graduate and instructor of Original > Giron > http://www.bahalana.com/certified_associate_instructors.htm > ~ 130 hours study > of the Fencing Masters Program at San Jose State University > http://www.fencingmastersprogram.com/ > And 10 years of actively working with > original and translated Historical European Martial Art manuals. > ==================== > Mr De Leon > **"Looks like those guys were spying on my > espada y daga workouts. quite revealing tape.** > > I apologize I was > being sarcastic; there is no chance of German dussage practice influencing > the > FMA. However, it is a prime example of parallel development. > Spanish > fencing is a pretty loose term. Most people think rapier fencing when they > say it, when in fact the Spanish school of the sword practiced techniques > from > grappling to two-handed great swords (about 5'-5'4" total length). > Different > schools would focus on different weapons. > By the time the conquest of the > Philippines began in earnest (about 1564 by Miguel Lopez de Legaspi IIRC) > the > institution of friars being the armed combatants had died. Granted there > were > likely a few retired soldiers in the mix, but no institution of martial > combative training as there had been during the Middle Ages and Early > Renaissance. The mix of soldiers the Spanish would have conquered the PI > with > would have been rodello, pike and shot. The common soldier would have been > armed with a shield, sword, dagger and armored with anything from padded, > chain maile or plate armor. The transition swords (simple hilt to simple > complex hilt) would have looked similar to this > http://www.arts-swords.com/item/DT-DT2161.asp . Add a shield to the mix > and > you have an impressive fighting pairing. > =========================== > **Those > videos show rapier fencing, which became popular relatively late in > Spain's > history. Before that the Spanish used a medieval style of > swordsmanship...it > is the medieval style that is supposed to be like FMA. Not the rapier > style** > No, the rapier style of Spanish fencing started in the early 1500's and > would > have well developed by the conquest of the PI. The "Medieval Style" of > sword > combat is very similar to FMA, but then compairing similarity in a system > does > not mean a transfer of knowledge or technique. Again, even the Medieval > Style > of fight had binds and actions along the blade allowed by the simple hilt > of > their swords. Other than the kapilin (sp) I know of no other historical PI > sword with a simple hilt, all are just blade and handle. By the time of > the > conquest the simple to complex hilted swords would have been well in play > by > the Spanish forces. > ======================= > **I'd like to know where this > information comes from.** > IMHO it's a myth that has been repeated so often > that it has wrongly become the truth to most people. > Cheers > Jim > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 17:16:14 -1000 From: Erwin Harry Vicente Legaspi To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Awesome. Now I am talking to men who make sense. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   > When the Romans first encountered the inhabitants of  > Spain, they were > impressed by the weapons that the Spanish  already > had.  In fact the Romans adapted > the sword design they saw  there to make their own gladius. >   > So the use of blades was known to the Spanish before  the > Arabs came along. Too funny b/c I just had a convo about this - Iberian sword styles and the Romans.  I wasn't saying that all of Spain attributes their sword culture to the Moors.  I was trying to point out that too many people don't understand - there was no such thing as a unified 'Spain'.  So to say 'Spanish', they are just talking of places that were famous for the colonial endeavor, i.e. Leon, Castile.  However, Andalucia is often talked about as having a big knife and sword culture (where the navaja comes), but it is mainly a mix of Moors, gypsys Southern Europeans, and other ethnicities.  To just say 'Spanish' is an understatement.  If there was any influence, it wouldn't have necesarily been all sword.  What Filipinos had any rapiers, epees, sabers and the like to learn Spanish fencing?  Really, wouldn't it be more plausible to say Filipinos learned a lot of knife techniques from what was considered the absolute dregs of society - who fight more?  And obviously, would carry a knife, b/c it's a civilian weapon. In Tagalog, there is an actual linguistic distinction between Andalucian and Castilian FYI - that clearly denote that there were different 'Iberian' people from Spain in the Philippines (I know this studying Tagalog academically as a grad student - I suck speaking it though).  And yes, most of the encomenderos who came to the Philippines, were in fact the social dregs of society (I also did a paper on this my senior year in college).  They were the only ones who initially would've came to the Philippines b/c there was no lucrative colonial enterprise to take part of.  The crown itself just had the Manila-Acapulco trade, but real money in the stockholding form of investment lay more West to the British and Dutch East India Companies. > If these "Illustrados" have also trained in the FMA, it would be > hard not to > assume that they have blended these 2 styles to arrive at > something which > works best for them.  >   -Exactly what I was thinking.  How some eskrima styles developed - the merger of illustrado Spanish-style fencing with native blade techniques.  In fact, it would make sense for the eskrima curriculum to follow the 1-5 numbering pattern as a type of pedagogy borrowed from some fencing style, since it was a codified form of combative instruction.  Not saying fencing INVENTED eskrima, but that the illustrados could've borrowed from their experience learning another martial art and using it to teach their own.  If you look at the history of a lot these groups, they fall along those Freemason type societies, which illustrados were a part of, and hence could've explained the usage of Spanish for instruction. > > I apologize I was > being sarcastic; there is no chance of German dussage practice > influencing the > FMA.  However, it is a prime example of parallel development.  > Spanish > fencing is a pretty loose term.  > Jim, I was thinking that this was too far of a stretch for anybody to really say.  You basically cleared everything up and said stuff I agree with.  There is just too much wide conclusions being drawn with only reference to a few particular Spanish styles.  Iberian swordfighting styles are full of many types of different arts just like eskrima.  Why people insist one style has to influence the other and why human minds can develop things similarly or in parallel, I do not understand.  There are only so many ways to move the human body and strategize.  One guy doesn't have to come up with one move and then teach the whole world it in order for the entire human consciousness to know, "Okay, now that's a new move."  Sometime or another, somebody will come up with a 'new' move invented thousands of years ago. And yes, the whole issue of 'warrior priests' teaching Cebuanos eskrima against the Moros, hmm . . could be plausible -but . . for one particular area.  Remember Bohol, which is not too far away had the longest rebellion against the Spanish - the Dagohoy rebellion, and also the Tamblot rebellion.  Why would Spanish priests really teach an entire population of people they wanted to subjugate, when the next island over had their own longstanding problems with the natives?  Again warrior priests?  If so, then Bohol shouldn't have a problem if they taught the natives eskrima on Cebu.  In fact, why didn't the priests bring Cebuanos to Bohol and kick their ass then?  I don't see the logic.  I'll probably buy the book anyway to see their arguments.  I have read several of their articles re: this subject anyway. Btw, I invented the omoplata on my own practicing armbar drills with my dog.  True story.  I laughed when my BJJ instructor taught it to me b/c I didn't know you could really use it.  It was always a joke. This thread is great! Respectfully, Erwin Legaspi --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 13 Aug 2008 23:42:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Guro Dennis Servaes To: Escrima-martialartsresource Subject: [Eskrima] The origins of FMA and the term Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Rez Johnson I think Hans Talhoffer is the most obvious example of recorded combat situations whick are mistakenly referred to as a lessons for combat manual. I would expect you to be the one telling me of more numerous examples rather than asking me about it if you know something I don't, but here is a link for manuals: http://www.aemma.org/library_768.html And I have a webpage at http://www.geocities.com/dennisservaes/suggested_reading_page.html where some can actually be purchased. Train hard and have fun! Dennis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 03:32:53 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI definition To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   Karunungan (not karanungan) and lihim are Tagalog words.  That particular contraction could be a modern concept for the following reasons:    Subanons "River People” were the earliest recorded people of Zamboanga.  The name derives from Suba, which is Visayan for "River."   The Tausugs, another early people of Zamboanga, call their swords Kalis (not Kali) but they call their martial art Kuntaw or Kuntawan.    Chavacano de Zamboanga is the unique dialect/language of Zamboanga based on ancient Creole Spanish and is a conglomeration of the multitudes of ethnic and foreign languages from the surrounding Philippine Islands and European countries. Chavacano de Zamboanga is the 1.  Only Spanish-based Creole in Asia  2.  One of the oldest Creole languages in the world, having survived for over 400 years 3.  One of the oldest spoken language in the Philippines.  4.  Only language to have developed in the Philippines that does not belong to the family of Austronesian languages. Among the component languages of Chavacano de Zamboanga were from the Cebuanos, Spaniards, Subanons and Lutaos, and Yakans.   Cheers,   James U. Sy Jr.   --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Rich Acosta wrote: From: Rich Acosta Subject: [Eskrima] KALI definition To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 11:08 PM According to Mataw Guro Louelle Lledo who grew up in Zamboanga Mindanao and studied Kuntawan, the term Kali is an acronym created from combination of the words Karanungan (knowledge) and Lihim (secret) thus meaning "Secret Knowledge". He does not claim that it Kali is the mother art of Arnis and Escrima. Mataw Guro Lou is the founder of his own system called Amara Arkanis. http://www.amara-arkanis.com/ Regards, Rich Acosta Kuntaw Kali Kruzada Kali Arnis International Philippine Council of Kali Eskrima Arnis Masters --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:23:42 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Dekiti Tirsia Siradas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tyler,   Teo Nene (GM Jerson Tortal) is from Talisay City, Negros Occidental.  He is the uncle of GT Leo T. Gaje Jr.  In about the mid 1980s he was President of the now defunct Negros Occidental Arnis Federation (NOAF), with which several Negrense grandmasters were a member of.   GM Nene once worked hand in hand with GT Gaje in propagating PKT but later they had conflicts and had to go separate ways.  He adopted DTSK to differentiate what he was teaching from his nephew.  Among his students in the US are Mike and May Williams of the Martial Arts research Institute (MARI) and Greg Alland. Hope that helps for starters.   James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc.   --- On Wed, 8/13/08, Tyler Murphy wrote: From: Tyler Murphy Subject: [Eskrima] Dekiti Tirsia Siradas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, August 13, 2008, 8:08 PM Hello all, I have never heard of this style of FMA before but, this teacher is coming to Cincinnati, Ohio for a 2 day seminar and I have been asked to go to it. Here is the page. http://www.dtskali.com/calendar.htm I am wondering if anyone here is familiar with Grand Tuhon Nene Tortal or his style. Any info would be appreciated. Tyler --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 09:54:16 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Spanish school of fencing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Those videos show rapier fencing, which became popular > relatively late in > Spain's history. Before that the Spanish used a > medieval style of > swordsmanship...it is the medieval style that is supposed > to be like FMA. > > Not the rapier style. 'la verdadera destreza' (the true skill), which was shown in the youtube clip, is currently the only revived method of spanish swordsmanship we have. the authors of those texts also refer to 'destreza comun' or 'destreza vulgar' (common skill), which is is also rapier fencing, and is presumably like the italian styles (there are no known texts). non-rapier spanish swordsmanship, such as the famed 'rodeleros' (round shield men, armed with a sword), is more likely to be similar to fma than rapier swordsmanship. however, no known texts of it have survived. researchers of historical european martial arts have identified a possible source of spanish swordsmanship (pietro monte) but there is contention as to whether his style was spanish or italian. tim --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Thu, 14 Aug 2008 16:03:10 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Yawyan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Filipino martial art Yawyan derives techniques from arnis. http://www.abs-cbnnews.com/storypage.aspx?StoryId=128310 --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest