Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #216 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. ahem...fma chicago area (Gordon Walker) 2. The term FMA (Julian Gilmour) 3. Re: ahem...fma chicago area (Tom Howanic) 4. Re: Spanish, French, German Influence & Ka-li (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. Re: KALI definition (Rich Acosta) 6. Re: Re: KALI definition (Ray) 7. Re: Re: Spanish, French, German Influence & Ka-li (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 03:35:12 -0600 From: "Gordon Walker" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] ahem...fma chicago area Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi, once again, the asawa is wanting to Go see her sister in chicago. two weeks in december. all I can find so far is dekiti tirsia kali, defensor method, degerberg academy and I think there is north shore. that sounds like ã great list of choices, but I'm hoping to find pekiti tirsia (!), or another style with some good dumog. I hope someone here can help me. Regards, Gord --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Julian Gilmour To: Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 11:26:01 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] The term FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Just a thought from an English practitioner of kali (as I call it), who has never been to the Philippines, and does not speak any of the languages: I thought that the one thing we did agree on the list, was that FMA stood for 'Filipino martial arts'. Someone (sorry can't remember who, and no disrespect) recently posted quoting FMA as 'F - something Mandirigma Antike (or something similar). I am familiar with the term mandirigma, but not the other two words. Pardon my ignorance, but are most people thinking 'Filipino martial arts' when they think 'FMA', or the other term? (I hope the response isn't the can of worms I fear) As an aside, Mr Legaspi, I too am enjoying the thread, although lots goes over my head. I was just wondering, when doing BJJ, does your dog prefer to train gi or no gi? Strike from the void Julian _________________________________________________________________ Invite your Facebook friends to chat on Messenger http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/101719649/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Tom Howanic" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] ahem...fma chicago area Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 09:54:27 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Nate Defensor is a very skilled teacher. I trained a little with him while in Chicago for a few days. He has a vast amount of knowledge and he is a great guy. I believe he does some Dumog as well...I could be wrong though. tom ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon Walker" To: Sent: Friday, August 15, 2008 4:35 AM Subject: [Eskrima] ahem...fma chicago area > hi, > once again, the asawa is wanting to Go see her sister in chicago. two > weeks in december. > all I can find so far is dekiti tirsia kali, defensor method, > degerberg academy and I think there is north shore. > that sounds like ã great list of choices, but I'm hoping to find > pekiti tirsia (!), or another style with some good dumog. > I hope someone here can help me. > Regards, > Gord > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:27:40 EDT To: GatPuno@aol.com, eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Spanish, French, German Influence & Ka-li Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Wait a minute Hombres, not to fast!! > > Spanish, French even German style influenced FMA? > > 9th Century confirmed in China's history that they have been Trading to the > island of Mai or Mait Island which is the island of Mindoro (Philippines). > The Chinese > Pirates Lima-Hong was by the native in the Philippines. > > Let's go back, 13th Century, Ten Datu arrived to the Philippine Island with > their bladed weapon from Borneo. It was confirmed that the native already > have their organized Governments and rules that they brought with them, and > Datu Puti > the head of the Ten Datu bought the island from Marikudo the Atis > Chieftain agreed to sell > part of the lands for them. > > 1521 Ferdinand Magellan was killed in Mactan by known native Chieftain Raja > Pula-Pula or Datu Lapu-Lapu. > > This shown that the arts is has been practiced long before the Spanish > arrival, that disproved claimed that we borrowed techniques from Fencing of > Spanish, French or even German. We dont borrowed, we absorbed each fighting > arts each invaders, and guess what we made the Filipinized them or Filipino > version. But we never barrowed, we probably still it, but not borrowed. We > don't believed in borrowing, either we take, get or still. > Seriously, whether it is or not, we cannot confirm that, because everyone is guilty of somewhat taking thing from each arts, so before Bruce Lee discover the Jeet Kune Do or created, Filipino already do that, we have the original Jet Kune Do (collection of techniques from other fighting arts) new invaders new techniques absorb then we called it Eskrima, Arnis, I guess this is not refer to Ka-li because Eskrima and Arnis is not the mother art, but Arnis/Eskrima is the Mother FXXXXG arts I tell you. > > Ilustrados? late 1890's when the Ilustrado become a group or Scholar in > Europe, particularly in Barcelona, yes Jose Rizal, and the Luna's brothers where > the noted famous Ilustrados bothChinese Filipino , and yes they practiced > Fencing. But does not make them the creator of Arnis, Eskrima Estokada or FMA. > Forget about Kali, never heard till recent generation. > > Jose Rizal is from my province in Laguna, we shared culture and we share > similar style of Arnis de Mano. The original Laguna Doce Pares (Arnis de Mano) > which is recorded exisitence in our province on 1637. Okay, this is what "influ > enced" by Spanish to FMA, first the named, second the organize Arnis > Curriculum which is still carried by majority of Moro-moro player in Laguna > specially in Paete, Pakil and my Baet Family for 5th Generation. It waswrittenonour > town History.. recorded 1770's > > The creation of Moro-moro is based on the Book of Doce Pares de Francia > (Twelve peers of France) the book ilustrate the great skilled warrior Carlo Magno > (Charlemange of France) brought to the Philippines by Mexican Friars from > Acapulco Mexico via Manila Gallion Trades, during Manila-Acapulco Galleon > trades. On the said book Charlemange conquered Europe including Rome and Germany, > he become the Emperor of Rome. A lot of recorded combatant, that made him the > great sword man at all time and it gives a good impression to be the role > model for all Eskrimadores and Arnisdores of Laguna. (Noticed I emphasized > Laguna province, since I cannot speak for the rest of FMA in the Philippines). > > From the Moro-moro the Arnis de Mano (Harness of the Hand) a decorative > trappings around the hands served as colorful attraction to the performance > of > the Batalyas (Battle Dance) the climax in asaid Moro-moro shows., Esgrima or > Eskrima (Fencing), Estokada (the used of Estoque Swords) also used the term > to > mis-lead the Spanish atuhorities of the real meaning of the "Moro-moro", > since > at that time, the Spanish atuhority Banned a practiced of any Combative > orientation or gathering of fighters to practiced their warrior arts. > Remember > the Spanish dont want the FMA to be practiced in public to minimized the > chance of > over turn the authority. > > Ka-li,'s meaning, too many hole, their claiming its from Mindanao or Visayan > yet the word is adapted in Tagalog tounge, I dont know it does not make any > sence to me, that you have to call your arts aTagalog name "Karunungan > Lihim"?? Ka-li?? give me a break.. Well if it secretive let it be our secret. > > Original FiveStrikes is similar to Spanish??, Okay let go back to the > Original (Kadaanan), I just to let everyone knows the original art of Luzon is well > written and practiced through out Luzon, the Cinco Teros, Kabaroan (New) and > Kadaanan (Old)and the Siniwali (doubleweapon arts). Okay, what we barrowed > from the Visayan or Mindanaoan, name one, you can't named even one huh? Well, > let see what the Visayan and Mindanao barrowed from Luzon, Sinawali the arts > of double weapons, the Balisong of Batangas what else, some style still clear > based on Cinco Teros, which is particularly arts of Luzon. > > I remember watching the Dog Brother DVD the Grandfather speak, and GM Angel > Caballes said when he start teaching his art on the 1960's here in the US, > everyone he meet teach only the Cinco Teros or five strikes, then when he > demonstrated his arts the Twelved Strikes, everyone follows. Well this is clear > that he is mentioning the original numbering system of Luzon the Cinco Teros.. > > Okay, forget that, let go back to the real value of the arts. If you > believed that you practiced the real deal, why dont you taped your self doing > sparring,or play fights to your frineds or even other martial arts. If you go > 3minutes of you dont get hit and you always hit your opponent, then you > can claimed yourself the Arnisador. But if you get hit more that you hit > your opponent, then you don't know what is Arnis de Mano or Eskirma the value of > original art of the Philippines. > > Then chances are your arts is not worth arguing over, becaused is equally > useless arts or equally better arts. The arts of war is strategically designed > to win the war with or minimal fallen fighter. The art of Arnis de Mano > teaches you how to hit your opponent without getting hit. If you cant do this then > your art is as defective FMA as the non practitioner. Many of us, keep > howling, screaming overand over without knowing what you have, try to sparr > someone and see how good would you do and then try again and again, and if you > ready to call your arts FMA when you are ready to embraced the Filipino and its > culture. Knowing us Filipino, it's explain the arts itself. > > I will be Indiana next week, in Auburn, Indiana for two day Seminar, if you > have time to come by I am more than willing to show you the arts of Arnis de > Mano.. Sorry I dont know Kali, I know Cinco Teros not th Spanish version, > only Luzon, dont do Visayan version either so dont look for it on my seminar. > But I will guaratee you, I will answer any question you might have. except > "Kali"question, I am not certified Kali Master.. But I am willing to see your > Kali skill and I am open for discussion. > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 14:25:29 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: KALI definition Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James, Thanks for your response and the wealth of information. To address your comment, the contraction of the words "Karunungan" and "Lihim" into the term "Kali", although likely to be modern (early 1900's) as you pointed out, is still verifiable. As I mentioned the term "Kali" is used by some Kuntawan practitioners in Zomboanga to mean "Secret Knowledge" referring to the wisdom of the art and it's underlying principles. This information has been verified by Mataw Guro Lou lledo of Amara Arkanis. The probability that this is a "modern" term does not take away from this validation from a respectable source. Just FYI, Mataw Guro Lou is 59 and learned Kuntawan in his youth which would be in the early 60's. He taught in Philippine universities and was a major influence in the PKA (Philippine Karate Association). Regards, Rich Acosta Kuntaw Kali Kruzada ----- Original Message ----- From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] KALI definition To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Karunungan (not karanungan) and lihim are Tagalog words. That particular contraction could be a modern concept for the following reasons: Subanons "River People” were the earliest recorded people of Zamboanga. The name derives from Suba, which is Visayan for "River." The Tausugs, another early people of Zamboanga, call their swords Kalis (not Kali) but they call their martial art Kuntaw or Kuntawan. Chavacano de Zamboanga is the unique dialect/language of Zamboanga based on ancient Creole Spanish and is a conglomeration of the multitudes of ethnic and foreign languages from the surrounding Philippine Islands and European countries. Chavacano de Zamboanga is the 1. Only Spanish-based Creole in Asia 2. One of the oldest Creole languages in the world, having survived for over 400 years 3. One of the oldest spoken language in the Philippines. 4. Only language to have developed in the Philippines that does not belong to the family of Austronesian languages. Among the component languages of Chavacano de Zamboanga were from the Cebuanos, Spaniards, Subanons and Lutaos, and Yakans. Cheers, James U. Sy Jr. -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: KALI definition Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 12:53:38 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Perhaps, who knows... However in Zamboanga the art itself would have most likely been termed Kuntao Silat. Years ago we used to hear it was arnis in the north, eskrima in the central area and kali in the south. But it was most likely Kuntao Silat in the south, and kali in the US... :) Ray On Aug 15, 2008, at 12:25 PM, Rich Acosta wrote: > To address your comment, the contraction of the words "Karunungan" and > "Lihim" into the term "Kali", although likely to be modern (early > 1900's) > as you pointed out, is still verifiable. As I mentioned the term > "Kali" > is used by some Kuntawan practitioners in Zomboanga to mean "Secret > Knowledge" referring to the wisdom of the art and it's underlying > principles. --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 Aug 2008 23:04:31 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Spanish, French, German Influence & Ka-li Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net whilst JKD is not simply a collection of techniques from other arts, it is true that Lee's drawings and references in the Tao came from the US Navy definitive book on boxing that was written by whoever who had served in the Phillipines. When Inosanto showed it to Manong Lacoste he laughed refferring to it as Filipino or Panantukan ! im not sure if this is the one: http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=22336&cat=324&page=1 As Guro Inosanto created the Jun Fan curriculum in a manner that was taught in the Los Angeles era, the Jun Fan and Panantukan sets are similar as a learning methodology coming from his school teaching background. JKD is not a collection of eclectic techniques, its the synergy at any given moment to what is appropriate utilising any art that is appropriate. You cant be bound by an art and whatever you may think of him, Vunak was perhaps one of the best exponents of that and in modern sport application i see Paulson doing it in his CSW. On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:27 PM, wrote: > Seriously, whether it is or not, we cannot confirm that, because everyone is > guilty of somewhat taking thing from each arts, so before Bruce Lee discover > the Jeet Kune Do or created, Filipino already do that, we have the original > Jet > Kune Do (collection of techniques from other fighting arts) new invaders new > techniques absorb then we called it Eskrima, Arnis, I guess this is not refer > to Ka-li because Eskrima and Arnis is not the mother art, but Arnis/Eskrima is > the Mother FXXXXG arts I tell you. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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