Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #218 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Panuntukan /JKD/FMA same same.. (Daniel Arola) 2. The Scorpion King2 (Nelson Trinidad) 3. Cruzada - the FMA's link to the Western MA? (Bill Debuque) 4. JKD Kali same same (Arndt Mallepree) 5. Re: JKD Kali same same (realitycombat) 6. Re: Cruzada - the FMA's link to the Western MA? (adam babb) 7. Re: JKD Kali same same (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 11:46:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Panuntukan /JKD/FMA same same.. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree. I'm also a JKD Concepts practitioner. It's all the same. DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas   --- On Sat, 8/16/08, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: From: GatPuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] Panuntukan /JKD/FMA same same.. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, August 16, 2008, 7:31 AM Mr. Davis, I am just using an example of the FMA is used what is work, long before the JKD was created. Not changing the meaning of it, cant argue about the meaning of it, since I am not a 1/JKD practitioner, 2/seen the whole nucleus of JKD, 3/understand what is the deeper meaning of it, my only assumption is Bruce and Guro Dan preaches used what is work or Aabsorb what is useful. This FMA is all about, we select techniques that only works, if is not worth taking, we dont take and if is worth taking believed me we just dont take the ownership of it. I dont know, I am not here to change what speliing you are using to Panantukan, if you will asked me as Tagalog speaker, Panuntukan is the proper spelling. But its all good as long as refer as Filipino Boxing. Good days, no much to say about JKD, only seeing and hearing the same theory of belief in FMA. If not, pardon my innocent on the subject, just thought we are talking the same apple and oranges, may be yes may be not. > > whilst JKD is not simply a collection of techniques from other arts, > it is true that Lee's drawings and references in the Tao came from the > US Navy definitive book on boxing that was written by whoever who had > served in the Phillipines. When Inosanto showed it to Manong Lacoste > he laughed refferring to it as Filipino or Panantukan ! > im not sure if this is the one: > http://www.budovideos.com/shop/customer/product.php?productid=22336&cat=324& > page=1 > > As  Guro Inosanto created the Jun Fan curriculum in a manner that was > taught in the Los Angeles era, the Jun Fan and Panantukan sets are > similar as a learning methodology coming from his school teaching > background. > > JKD is not a collection of eclectic techniques, its the synergy at any > given moment to what is appropriate utilising any art that is > appropriate. You cant be bound by an art and whatever you may think of > him, Vunak was perhaps one of the best exponents of that and in modern > sport application i see Paulson doing it in his CSW. > > On Fri, Aug 15, 2008 at 7:27 PM,  wrote: > > Seriously, whether it is or not, we cannot confirm that, because everyone > is > > guilty of somewhat taking thing from each arts, so before Bruce Lee > discover > > the Jeet Kune Do or created, Filipino already do that, we have the > original > > Jet > > Kune Do (collection of techniques from other fighting arts) new invaders > new > > techniques absorb then we called it Eskrima, Arnis, I guess this is not > refer > > to Ka-li because Eskrima and Arnis is not the mother art, but > Arnis/Eskrima is > > the Mother FXXXXG arts I tell you. > > -- > Pat Davies > Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Nelson Trinidad To: Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 12:32:51 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] The Scorpion King2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Meowmix to All, Please watch "The Scorpion King2: Rise of a Warrior" will be out by Aug. 19,2008 on DVD/Blu Ray only has the lead actor by the name of Michael Copon a Fil/German descent and the father side from Salinas , Cavite City /Phils and my nephew. Randy Couture (UFC CHAMP) plays the villain and killed The Rock .This movie has good sword fightings. Nelson"PinoyKowboy"Trinidad CombatArnisTabakSociety(CATS) _________________________________________________________________ Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sat, 16 Aug 2008 21:40:30 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] Cruzada - the FMA's link to the Western MA? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In an earlier post I raised the possibility that Cruzada is somehow linked to the term "Kali" in the Malay Language.While I personally believe in such possibility, I have stumbled unto another oddity which also directly links Cruzada to the Western MA.I have before me a 2006 Paladin Press reprint of the book "Broadsword and Singlestick", which was originally published in London in 1890. On p. 33 of the aforementioned book, you will find an illustration of the basic cuts for the broad-sword. Cut nos. 1 to 4 are exactly the same with that of Cruzada.Furthermore, on pp. 33 & 34 of the same book, it says:"In the manual on sword-exercises at present in use in the army, it is stated that there are four cuts and four guards, so arranged for the sake of clearness, though practically there are only two cuts - from right to left and from left to right, high and low..."Sounds familiar isn't it? =[:->] --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Arndt Mallepree To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 09:23:42 +0200 Subject: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the Panantukan are the same. Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques from other arts. For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? The point in my oppinion is that we all have to arms and two legs and as long as this stays the same - we all can use them only in a certain way. This does not make any art the mother art to another! But history may do this!!! This was not written in any offense to anyone - its just my thoughts on the given question! Arndt Mallepree arndt@ifcm.de --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 10:26:01 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Since I have been a long time practitioner - instructor of JKD and Kali, I would like to offer my 2 cents. JKD and Kali-Panantukan are not the same. They do have a lot of similarities. Those of us that teach both blend them together a lot of times because of those similarities. Panantukan blends no nice with JKD that it almost looks the same. We use what works and disgard what does not. Panatukan works. Just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Arndt Mallepree >Sent: Aug 17, 2008 2:23 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same > >Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the >Panantukan are the same. >Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of >school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics >could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. > >Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because >both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques >from other arts. > >For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat >cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of >stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. > >Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun >Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the >philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? > > >The point in my oppinion is that we all have to arms and two legs and >as long as this stays the same - we all can use them only in a certain >way. This does not make any art the mother art to another! But history >may do this!!! > >This was not written in any offense to anyone - its just my thoughts >on the given question! > >Arndt Mallepree >arndt@ifcm.de >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:59:30 -0700 (PDT) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Cruzada - the FMA's link to the Western MA? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net read george silvers books --- On Sat, 8/16/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] Cruzada - the FMA's link to the Western MA? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, August 16, 2008, 10:40 PM In an earlier post I raised the possibility that Cruzada is somehow linked to the term "Kali" in the Malay Language.While I personally believe in such possibility, I have stumbled unto another oddity which also directly links Cruzada to the Western MA.I have before me a 2006 Paladin Press reprint of the book "Broadsword and Singlestick", which was originally published in London in 1890. On p. 33 of the aforementioned book, you will find an illustration of the basic cuts for the broad-sword. Cut nos. 1 to 4 are exactly the same with that of Cruzada.Furthermore, on pp. 33 & 34 of the same book, it says:"In the manual on sword-exercises at present in use in the army, it is stated that there are four cuts and four guards, so arranged for the sake of clearness, though practically there are only two cuts - from right to left and from left to right, high and low..."Sounds familiar isn't it? =[:->] _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 11:44:43 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree with the sentiments and observations in the previous post.   I bring this up in the spirit of discussion.   I believe guro Hosch was referring to the Dan Inosanto/JKD/Kali Panantukan.   I am beginning to get the impression though, that some people are beginning to use the word "panuntukan" to refer to the empty hand subsystem of FMA (if it was possible to isolate it from the general body of knowledge).   Does "panuntukan" then include "sikaran" and "dumog"? Are all "panuntukans" the same?  For example, is the Lucaylucay "Panuntukan" the same as the Inosanto "Panuntukan"?  We know there is a connection, but are they the same?  How much similar?   Would I be correct in calling the unarmed aspect of my FMA as "panuntukan?'  In addition to FMA "panuntukan" elements, since I am a practitioner of the following systems, it would include additional elements of thai kickboxing, judo and jiu-jitsu, karate and western boxing.  And I am almost sure I am more of the  rule than the exception.   Of course, there would be FMA practitioners like my kapatid Gatpuno Abon Baet, who would be more pure in his "panuntukan" which would surely include a lot of of his "buno" elements.   In fact, for kapatid Abon and myself, it is simply one ball of wax, so to speak.  we are simply exploring terminology, i.e., panuntukan.   Just inviting comments and thoughts.   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com     --- On Sun, 8/17/08, realitycombat wrote: From: realitycombat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 8:26 AM Hello, Since I have been a long time practitioner - instructor of JKD and Kali, I would like to offer my 2 cents. JKD and Kali-Panantukan are not the same. They do have a lot of similarities. Those of us that teach both blend them together a lot of times because of those similarities. Panantukan blends no nice with JKD that it almost looks the same. We use what works and disgard what does not. Panatukan works. Just my 2 cents for whatever it is worth. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Arndt Mallepree >Sent: Aug 17, 2008 2:23 AM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] JKD Kali same same > >Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the >Panantukan are the same. >Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of >school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics >could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. > >Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because >both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques >from other arts. > >For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat >cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of >stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. > >Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun >Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the >philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? > > >The point in my oppinion is that we all have to arms and two legs and >as long as this stays the same - we all can use them only in a certain >way. This does not make any art the mother art to another! But history >may do this!!! > >This was not written in any offense to anyone - its just my thoughts >on the given question! > >Arndt Mallepree >arndt@ifcm.de >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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