Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 16:49:02 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #219 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Cruzada/Crossada Cinco Teros (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Panuntukan (GatPuno@aol.com) 4. Re: JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (realitycombat) 5. RE: JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (Mr KRS) 6. Re: JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (jay de leon) 7. Ron Balicki Seminar in Libertyville, IL August 23 & 24, 2008. (Ron Balicki) 8. Re: JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (iPat) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:30:38 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cruzada/Crossada Cinco Teros Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bill, wrote: > > In an earlier post I raised the possibility that Cruzada is somehow linked > to the term "Kali" in the Malay Language.While I personally believe in such > possibility, I have stumbled unto another oddity which also directly links > Cruzada to the Western MA.I have before me a 2006 Paladin Press reprint of the > book "Broadsword and Singlestick", which was originally published in London in > 1890. On p. 33 of the aforementioned book, you will find an illustration of > the basic cuts for the broad-sword. Cut nos. 1 to 4 are exactly the same with > that of Cruzada.Furthermore, on pp. 33 & 34 of the same book, it says:"In the > manual on sword-exercises at present in use in the army, it is stated that > there are four cuts and four guards, so arranged for the sake of clearness, > though practically there are only two cuts - from right to left and from left > to right, high and low..."Sounds familiar isn't it?  =[:->]  > It's similar but not quite my friend,.. Let me further explain the Cinco Teros of Luzon, the Cinco Teros of Luzon is not only one pattern of five strikes, so chances are out of the Twelve Strata of Cinco Teros, which original twelve pattern of Five Strikes of the common Cinco Teros Arnis/Eskrima from Central Luzon. Example is X-+ -=- V-A-Z- and etc. Now the Cruzada sound you only refer to one of the Cinco Teros Strata, that make this invalid to our Cinco Teros.. Again, their so many shape and cut we only can do to a body, I am not surprised that some of the cut and techinques would be similar to FMA. My experienced as a Professional Chef and Butcher, many ways to kill and butcher pig or a cow. But somehow no matter many ways of butchering or meat fabrication the result still the same, the steak or back ribs still the same in French Cuisine as in Filipno Cooking, get the point? You said the book is published sometime in 1890's? What if I tell you that was borrowed from our Cinco Teros Eskrima, would you believed it? Becaused Cinco Teros is has been used and recorded as early 1570 is on leaf of our history, the warrior Bambolito the Sinawali Warrior from Central Luzon help Raja Solaiman depending Tondo (Manila) during the Spanish invasion. Then Moro-moro was formed on 1637, which is based on Cinco Teros Arnis called at that time Kadaanan, later it become Kabaroan. Arnis and Eskrima somehow are organized the first organized curricullum at the same time during the peak of Moro-moro Plays (Doce Pares of Laguna) the shroud of FMA. Hope this help, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 20:53:08 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Arndt Mallepree > arndt@ifcm.de you wrote: > > Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the  > Panantukan are the same. > Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of  > school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics  > could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. > What is funny about it? its Guro Dan is Filipino first of all and the student of Bruce Lee. If you have any on JKD, direct it to him. and his student. > > Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because  > both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques  > from other arts. > > For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat  > cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of  > stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. > Go back to the original post. We are only comparing, again we used the word that Guro Dan used to say to all JKD student. As FMA, this is first I heard form my father as early age, then I heard again from my 11 more instructor.. 20 year later I heard it from Guro Dan when I attended one of his Seminar here in Miami host by Dwight Wood. > > Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun  > Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the  > philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? > I dont know that book, JKD practitioner can answer that for you, but my personal opinion to your Question about if this is the father of Kali, this is might not a bad idea, it's a big chances it is. If it is then NO argument over Kali anymore.. > > > The point in my oppinion is that we all have to arms and two legs and  > as long as this stays the same - we all can use them only in a certain  > way. This does not make any art the mother art to another! But history  > may do this!!! > > This was not written in any offense to anyone - its just my thoughts  > on the given question! > > I don't agree with your statement, that my arm and your arm can do certain way, oh yes but maybe the better way to say, is some case. But I guarantee you, this arm that I have has different talent, I can carved a 2000 lbs Ice block into a disney castles and all of its character like mickey and minnie mouse, etc. could you do that.? I can carve a piece of wood into two man wrestling each other, and stickfighting to each other. Now I believed if you are trying to tell me, your arm can punch, then we can punch too, but the question is how powerful, how fast? This is the difference I guess. Muscle react different way even its buid the same way my friends.. its not good to used as analogy, if you ask me.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) --__--__-- Message: 3 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:03:48 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Panuntukan Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Josh and Kapatid Jay, agreed > > I agree with the sentiments and observations in the > previous post. >   > I bring this up in the spirit of discussion. >   > I believe guro Hosch was referring to the Dan > Inosanto/JKD/Kali Panantukan. >   > I am beginning to get the impression though, that > some people are beginning to use the word > "panuntukan" to refer to the empty hand subsystem > of FMA (if it was possible to isolate it from the > general body of knowledge). >   > Does "panuntukan" then include "sikaran" and > "dumog"? Are all "panuntukans" the same?  For > example, is the Lucaylucay "Panuntukan" the same > as the Inosanto "Panuntukan"?  We know there is a > connection, but are they the same?  How much > similar? >   > Would I be correct in calling the unarmed aspect > of my FMA as "panuntukan?'  In addition to FMA > "panuntukan" elements, since I am a > practitioner of the following systems, it would > include additional elements of thai kickboxing, > judo and jiu-jitsu, karate and western boxing.  And > I am almost sure I am more of the  rule than the > exception. >   > Of course, there would be FMA practitioners like > my kapatid Gatpuno Abon Baet, who would be > more pure in his "panuntukan" which would surely > include a lot of of his "buno" elements. >   > In fact, for kapatid Abon and myself, it is simply > one ball of wax, so to speak.  we are simply exploring > terminology, i.e., panuntukan. >   > Just inviting comments and thoughts. >   > Jay de Leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com >   >   > Panuntukan, is a Tagalog word can be traslated as Nagsusuntukan or fighting using of fist. If you includes the Sikaran, like my istructor he call it Sikadtukan -Kick Boxing (Sikad -Kick and Tukan from the shorten word Suntukan-Punching). Nowadays this word Panuntukan is a solid foundation of empty hand fighting, which includes, aikido lock throw, judo like takedown and Jujitsu like ground works. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:14:03 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Good point Pat. Sifu/Guro J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: GatPuno@aol.com >Sent: Aug 17, 2008 7:53 PM >To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Subject: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali > >> Arndt Mallepree >> arndt@ifcm.de you wrote: >> > >> Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the  >> Panantukan are the same. >> Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of  >> school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics  >> could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. >> >What is funny about it? its Guro Dan is Filipino first of all and the student >of Bruce Lee. If you have any on JKD, direct it to him. and his student. > >> >> Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because  >> both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques  >> from other arts. >> >> For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat  >> cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of  >> stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. >> >Go back to the original post. We are only comparing, again we used the word >that Guro Dan used to say to all JKD student. As FMA, this is first I heard >form my father as early age, then I heard again from my 11 more instructor.. >20 >year later I heard it from Guro Dan when I attended one of his Seminar here in >Miami host by Dwight Wood. > >> >> Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun  >> Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the  >> philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? >> >I dont know that book, JKD practitioner can answer that for you, but my >personal opinion to your Question about if this is the father of Kali, this is >might not a bad idea, it's a big chances it is. If it is then NO argument over >Kali anymore.. >> >> >> The point in my oppinion is that we all have to arms and two legs and  >> as long as this stays the same - we all can use them only in a certain  >> way. This does not make any art the mother art to another! But history  >> may do this!!! >> >> This was not written in any offense to anyone - its just my thoughts  >> on the given question! >> >> >I don't agree with your statement, that my arm and your arm can do certain >way, oh yes but maybe the better way to say, is some case. > >But I guarantee you, this arm that I have has different talent, I can carved >a 2000 lbs Ice block into a disney castles and all of its character like >mickey and minnie mouse, etc. could you do that.? I can carve a piece of wood >into >two man wrestling each other, and stickfighting to each other. > >Now I believed if you are trying to tell me, your arm can punch, then we can >punch too, but the question is how powerful, how fast? This is the difference >I guess. Muscle react different way even its buid the same way my friends.. >its not good to used as analogy, if you ask me.. > > >Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet >Garimot Arnis Training Group International >Laguna Arnis Federation International >US Harimaw Buno Federation >Hilot Research Center USA >Tel. 954-432-4433 >www.garimot.com > > > > >************** >Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? >Read reviews on AOL Autos. > >(http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut00 0 >30000000007 ) >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Mr KRS Subject: RE: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 23:06:18 -0400 To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net You have to understand that Guro Dan applies the theory or 'concept' of JKD to his art. He is a JKD practitioner but has added FMA to his JKD. This is the concept of applying what is useful, taking away what is not and making it your own which is a JKD concept. You have Jun Fan practitioners like Sifu Ted Wong who really teach Jun Fan as sanctioned by the Bruce Lee Foundation and you have practitioners like Guro Dan who apply FMA concepts combined with Bruce Lees concepts. Guro Dan added FMA to his JKD because it works. To me if it works then It's still JKD in theory. The art that Guro Dan teaches is JKD and Panantukan among other things but under the concepts of JKD, so the whole system can be called JKD because he has added what works for him i.e. Panantukan etc hence the similarity. Original Jun Fan is also similar to Panantukan because of the focus mitt drills, boxing, trapping, low line kicks etc which existed in JKD pre FMA influence and is disimilar because of the use of stop hits as opposed to destructions. I have done somthing similar to Guro Dan and many others by adding Jiu Jitsu and FMA among other things to my JKD again because it works for me. I hope you understand my point that both the Jun Fan and the Guro Dans blend are similar and why I think they are. Also bare in mind this thread is not meant to disrespect any JKD or FMA practitioner, I wrote it purley based on my experience and observation of both systems. Karl Swass -----Original Message----- From: GatPuno@aol.com Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:53 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali > Arndt Mallepree > arndt@ifcm.de you wrote: > > Its funny to read about the idea - that the Jun Fan curriculum and the  > Panantukan are the same. > Guro Dan worte the curricula for his school. He used a methodology of  > school teachers to make it easier to his pupils to learn. Mathematics  > could be teached the same way and its not a mother art to JKD. > What is funny about it? its Guro Dan is Filipino first of all and the student of Bruce Lee. If you have any on JKD, direct it to him. and his student. > > Now you point out, that Kali and JKD have the same nucleus, because  > both Arts use what is usefull in the given moment and took techniques  > from other arts. > > For a martial art it is essential to use usefull techniques in combat  > cause its a question of survival. This is not so much a question of  > stile or technique - but more a question of tactics. > Go back to the original post. We are only comparing, again we used the word that Guro Dan used to say to all JKD student. As FMA, this is first I heard --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 21:24:38 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net just in case somebody is really serious about comparing JKD Concepts and The Art of War...   http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Museum_Library/SunTzuArtWar.html   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com       --- On Sun, 8/17/08, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: From: GatPuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, August 17, 2008, 5:53 PM > Arndt Mallepree > arndt@ifcm.de you wrote: > > > Now my question to you is - as the book THE ART OF WAR written by Sun  > Tzu is one of the most refered books in tactics (also by the  > philosophie of JKD) is now Sun Tzu the Father of Kali??? > ************** Looking for a car that's sporty, fun and fits in your budget? Read reviews on AOL Autos. (http://autos.aol.com/cars-Volkswagen-Jetta-2009/expert-review?ncid=aolaut000 30000000007 ) _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 17 Aug 2008 22:44:25 -0700 From: "Ron Balicki" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Ron Balicki Seminar in Libertyville, IL August 23 & 24, 2008. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Everyone, I am just sending out a notice that I am going to be in Libertyville, IL August 23 & 24, 2008. I will be teaching Kali, Jun Fan JKD, Shoot Wrestling and Maphilindo Silat. Please contact Marc Halleck at: Address : NorthShore Martial Arts Academy 281 Peterson Rd Libertyville, IL, 60048 Phone: 847-573-1672 Email: kaliman33@aol.com If you would like to test (rank) in any of the systems please RSVP. Thanks Ron Balicki --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 13:24:11 +0100 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Karl, on this tangent and to broaden this to others interested (or else press delete) using that term 'origional' Jun Fan then we have to think - for the sake of this discussion - of pre Los Angeles (Oakland or Seattle). Most of the drills came from chi/luk sau. The LA era was mainly taught by Sifu Inosanto and the 'kickboxing' approach was down to the fact that Inosantos students were effectively kempo guys who could not initially grasp the chi sau approach. Lee's teaching was dynamic in that he taught what he wanted to test. Inosanto created a curriculm approach and the sets to appeal to the structured approach required by his students. Later on when he taught the Kali curriculum, it made sence to structure the panantukan in a manner that would allow people to learn it quickly by giving it the allure of familiarity, especially when you consider that he already had a base of students to whom he would be presenting this material. Of course the Jeet Gek (shin intercept) is similar to the Karasac although the hand structure is different. This is the cross training approach to which i think Arndt was implying but with so many different cultures trying to talk in one language that may not be their first, i hope we can allow some room for interpretation! : ) Jun Fan though is not a weapon art or at least to the degree of the likes of FMA or Silat. So the kicks in FMA will differ in intent and approach, especially if there is a knife attached to the toe. In the sterile safe class situation that kick may not impress a thai practitioner in teh same way many strikers dont get trapping at times. Sport application also changes a kick where for point scoring you need to return 'a la' thai to the fighting stance in order to fire the next shot and score the next point in order to win. In street application you may not want to retun the leg having used the kick to close the gap and crash your opponent. This is also evident in stick fighting sport applications and why you might see one aspect of the art develop within the boundaries of the rules. As a teaching exercise, i heard that Guro Inosanto used to teach people in different areas of the country different methods to see which one had the greatest effect. I guess the way he teaches is based on his results, although he changes his curriculum so often that its hard to determine. nothing stays the same, it moves. On Mon, Aug 18, 2008 at 4:06 AM, Mr KRS wrote: > Original Jun Fan is also similar to Panantukan because of the focus mitt > drills, boxing, trapping, low line kicks etc which existed in JKD pre FMA > influence and is disimilar because of the use of stop hits as opposed to > destructions. I have done somthing similar to Guro Dan and many others by > adding Jiu Jitsu and FMA among other things to my JKD again because it works > for me. I hope you understand my point that both the Jun Fan and the Guro Dans > blend are similar and why I think they are. Also bare in mind this thread is > not meant to disrespect any JKD or FMA practitioner, I wrote it purley based > on my experience and observation of both systems. > > Karl Swass -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: http://www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest