Date: Tue, 19 Aug 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #220 - 2 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. RE: JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali (Mr KRS) 2. RE: The origins of FMA and the term Kali (2@msfencing.org) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Mr KRS Subject: RE: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2008 10:28:48 -0400 To: Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I can Appreciate both Sifu Bruces' intent and Guro Dans intent. I agree that it is difficult to teach certain concepts to people that do not speak the language in which the concept originated. I also agree the techniques in Guro Dans system are similar to Panantukan. I would like to know what an actual Panantukan player from the filipines thinks. Karl Swass -----Original Message----- From: iPat Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 8:24 AM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] JKD/Sun Tzu the father of Kali Karl, on this tangent and to broaden this to others interested (or else press delete) using that term 'origional' Jun Fan then we have to think - for the sake of this discussion - of pre Los Angeles (Oakland or Seattle). Most of the drills came from chi/luk sau. The LA era was mainly taught by Sifu Inosanto and the 'kickboxing' approach was down to the fact that Inosantos students were effectively kempo guys who could not initially grasp the chi sau approach. Lee's teaching was dynamic in that he taught what he wanted to test. Inosanto created a curriculm approach and the sets to appeal to the structured approach required by his students. Later on when he taught the Kali curriculum, it made sence to structure the panantukan in a manner that would allow people to learn it quickly by giving it the allure of familiarity, especially when you consider that he already had a base of students to whom he would be presenting this material. Of course the Jeet Gek (shin intercept) is similar to the Karasac although the hand structure is different. This is the cross training approach to which i think Arndt was implying but with so many different cultures trying to talk in one language that may not be their first, i hope we can allow some room for interpretation! : ) Jun Fan though is not a weapon art or at least to the degree of the likes of FMA or Silat. So the kicks in FMA will differ in intent and approach, especially if there is a knife attached to the toe. In the sterile safe class situation that kick may not impress a thai practitioner in teh same way many strikers dont get trapping at times. Sport application also changes a kick where for point scoring you need to return 'a la' thai to the fighting stance in order to fire the next shot and score the next point in order to win. In street application you may not want to retun the leg having used the kick to close the gap and crash your opponent. This is also evident in stick fighting sport applications and why you might see one as [The entire original message is not included] --__--__-- Message: 2 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] The origins of FMA and the term Kali Date: Mon, 18 Aug 2003 17:28:11 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guro Servaes, Forgive my belated reply, my whole family and I have been down with a nasty virus over the weekend. You cited 15th century German Fencing Master Hans Tahoffer's as an "obvious example" of "A lot of what people misconstrue as European training manuals are actually collections of events that were recorded..." Talhoffer's published three editions of his Fightbook from 1443, 1459 and 1467. They do not as you say contain "collections of events", but rather contain a collection of fighting techniques demonstrated through graphic image plates with textual descriptions. Talhofer showed numerous techniques for fighting with: Long Sword, Pole-axe, Shield and Club, Shield and Sword, Shield, Throated and Hewing Shield, Dagger, Wrestling, Messer, Sword and Buckler (a small shield), One against Two, Fighting in the Lists with Spear and Sword in Full Armor, A Judicial Fight between a Man and Wife, Swordfight on Horseback, Hand-to-Hand Fight on Horseback, Fight on Horseback with Lance and Sword, Fight on Horseback against the Crossbow. He alson discussions the seven reasons men fight. One of the reasons many of the really old fencing manuals didn't go into a great deal of depth beyond showing plates and giving description is because these books, which were actually widely studied, served as advertisements for the Master who wrote them. Much like the Eskrima DVDs many masters are putting out today. They take you only so far and then you need to contact the master for actual lessons to obtain the all important subtle fundamentals which make techniques work. The subtleties which can not be learned from looking at a picture or reading a text or watching a DVD. In the same way his popular Fightbooks were written not only for profit bit to bring in new students. Grace and Peace, Rez PS: Do you know when Master Cabales' website will be back online? The home page says that it is down for updating but the date given is March 2005. --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest