Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #226 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. What makes FMA different? (was FMA & WMA) (william mcgrath) 2. Re: RP wins Olympic gold in wushu (Bill Debuque) 3. Analysis of KALI Origin (Talibung Antike) 4. Re: Analysis of KALI Origin (jay de leon) 5. Re: Analysis of KALI Origin (Ray) 6. Re: FMA to WMA (maurice gatdula) 7. Re: Analysis of KALI Origin (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:03:23 -0700 (PDT) From: william mcgrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] What makes FMA different? (was FMA & WMA) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Murice wrote, I'm sorry, the whole thing of bringing back old eurpean martial arts is interesting, but we cannot use this to explain how similar it is to FMA. really, he probably learned FMA!       you tell me,  http://www.swordschool.com/school/syllabus.html       this curriculums looks lot like it has philippine martial arts!   It looks to me that he's using Spanish or Italian terms. My high school Spanish is very rusty and my Italian is even worse, so maybe someone on the list can translate the terms for us and we'll see if there are any similarities. However, it looks like a typical, highly structured Western curriculum, rather than the more fluid, concepts based training method many of the old timers in FMA were famous for. Here's one of those points I find interesting. In many FMA styles four diagonal strikes and a thrust is the basic foundation of the art. This is also the case for a style of machete and poncho fighting from Ecuador I saw as well as in Canary Island stick fighting. The thrusts differ from place to place, but the four basic diagonals remain the same. "Ah, ha", you'll say, "each of these countries were once ruled by the Spanish." Yes, but, according to my friends who study Ken-Jitsu, four diagonals cuts and a thrust is also the basic foundation for many Japanese sword styles. Maybe there was cross cultural transfer of techniques and maybe it was just a case of independent evolution (like the bow and arrow arising independently of each other in the old and new worlds). On the other side of this are countries whose martial arts should look a lot like FMA but don't. I'm thinking here specifically of Indonesian martial arts. While there are similarities in many empty hand techniques, the weapon work looks very different. My Indonesian instructor Eddie Jaffri always said that the FMA had better weapons work than Penchak Silat. When comparing what makes FMA different than other weapons arts (such as WMA) the difference is not so much in the techniques (there are only so many ways to swing a sword or lock an arm) but in the rhythm and timing of the moves. Partly this must be attributable to the difference in weapon length-a longer weapon will have a longer arc and take more time to execute a cut. However, I used to attribute much of this to the use of rattan as a training tool in the Philippines, since you can go full contact, stick to stick, with rattan without suffering joint problems as you would doing the same drills with hardwood. However, this theory breaks down pretty quickly once you realize that most of S.E. Asia has rattan (including Indonesia). Therefore, my thinking now is that much of the difference must be attributed to Filipino culture. That love of tinkering and adjusting, taking apart and putting back together. My Pekiti-Tirsia instructor, GT Leo Gaje, used to tell us that his grandfather and his great uncles used to look at the techniques they got from their father and did not try to preserve them, but to destroy them- ie to tinker with them and find their strengths and weaknesses. I wonder also if the fact that most FMA styles were taught father to son, rather than in a commercial school (where you had to worry about spies from other styles learning your technique) had a great impact on training methods. Showing the attack, counter and recounter early on seems to be fairly common to most FMA styles I've seen, while holding back the counters until you've passed several check points seems to be common in most martial arts that have a history of being taught in a formal school setting. Your thoughts on this? Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com http://www.youtube.com/user/TuhonBillMcg --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 22:23:51 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] RP wins Olympic gold in wushu To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Congratulations to our countryman!   I hope that Wushu would be a full medal sport in the 2012 Olympics, together with other popular sports which should be given serious consideration by the IOC - football, bowling, billiards, golf, chess, karate, kickboxing, MMA, Kendo and yes,  FMA!!! --- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 22 Aug 2008 19:15:24 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] RP wins Olympic gold in wushu Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net    RP’s Wang claims gold in wushu Saturday, August 23, 2008 BEIJING – Willy Wang gave the Philippines a good measure of pride last night when he won the gold medal in the combined nanquan/nangun event of the Beijing 2008 Wushu tournament here.  Wang, a gold medalist in last year’s World Championships, also in Beijing , won the gold with 19.44 points. Taipei ’s Pe Wei Thuan took the silver with 19.39 points while Malaysia ’s Pei Fu Zhun settled for the bronze with 19.34 points. Medals won in wushu will not reflect in the overall standings of the ongoing Olympics. “Still, we are all very excited here,” said Philippine Wushu Federation honorary lifetime president Francis Chan in an overseas call to Manila . First Gentleman Mike Arroyo witnessed the victory, and was so excited, too, according to Chan. Arroyo supported the RP wushu team that competed here along with San Miguel Corporation. “The First Gentleman was very happy that our National Anthem was played. We couldn’t get any medal in the other sports. We were not fortunate enough. At least we won the gold in wushu,” said Chan. “We lost in every other event here. We at wushu never said so much but we won the gold. This is the result of our athletes’ eight months of training here in China ,” he added. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 10:39:55 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Analysis of KALI Origin Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Normal 0 false false false MicrosoftInternetExplorer4 st1\:*{behavior:url(#ieooui) } /* Style Definitions */ table.MsoNormalTable {mso-style-name:"Table Normal"; mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0; mso-tstyle-colband-size:0; mso-style-noshow:yes; mso-style-parent:""; mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt; mso-para-margin:0in; mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-pagination:widow-orphan; font-size:10.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-language:#0400; mso-fareast-language:#0400; mso-bidi-language:#0400;} Geographical Basis: The people of the Sultanate of Sulu pronounce the word for the bladed weapon "KRIS" as “Ka-lis”. The Bangsa Moro people speak or pronounce "R" as "AL". The “Filipino Warrior Sciences and Arts” practitioners from Mindanao Southern Philippines are very consistent that their Traditional Warriors Sciences and Arts are called “SILAT” and “KUNTAU” not Kali. http://www.granitebaykali.com/ Etiological Analysis based on Pre-Hispanic Languages in the Philippines: Hiligaynon (Ilonggo), Kiniray-a, Visayan (Cebuan) Hiligaynon: Kamot (Hand), Lihuk (Movement), Hulag (Movement), Hublag (Movement) Kali (DIG) Visayan (Cebuano): Kamot (Hand), Lihuk (Movement) Kiniray-a: Kamot (Hand), Lihuk (Movement) Kali (DIG) Tagalog: KArunongan (Knowledge) Lihim (Secret) Recent Modern Acronyms KAmot LIhuk KA-mot LI-huk KA LI (According Mr. Dan Inosanto) http://www.ronbalicki.com/about_dan_kali.htm KArunungang Lihim (KA Li according to Loulle Lledo, Jr.) Take Note: http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/history.html Kali Association of America / Founded January 1973 / Villabrille-Largusa Kali System The lineage of the teacher of Mr. Ben Largusa of Kilauea, Kauai, Hawaii Eskrimador Agustine (Hawaii) Eskrimador Floro Villabrille (Visayan Cebuano Speaking from Cebu)(Hawaii) http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/villabrille.html http://www.ronbalicki.com/about_dan_kali.htm http://www.tv.com/dan-inosanto/person/220778/biography.html The lineage of the teachers of Mr. Dan Inosanto –(Stockton, California) Cebu (Visayan Cebuano speaking)- Eskrimador Floro Villabrille (Cebu to Hawaii) (Panay Island, Hiligaynon, Kiniray-a speaking)- Eskrimador Angel Cabales (Antique, Panay Island, Philippines to USA) Take Note: Nothing in their indicated places of origin Mindanao, Masbate, Cebu, Samar, Panay, Negros indicates and proves that KALI is the mother art of Eskrima and Arnis. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pekiti_Tirsia_Kali KALIBO is the capital town of Aklan Province (Panay Island) (MADYANOS is the Pre-spanish name of Kalibo before May 1566) Hiligaynon: Isa (One) ka (the) Libo (Thousand) Isa ka libo (The One Thousand) CALIBO (During Spanish time May 1566 to American Commonwealth 1929) KALIBO (1929 to Present on recommendation of the Committee on Geographical Names) Mr. Leo Gaje, Jr. the grandson of Conrado B. Tortal (Pikiti Tirsia) cites KALIBO as the origin of the word Kali. http://www.pt-go.com/history_intro.asp Mr. Gaje brought Pikiti Tirsia Arnis to USA 1972 (NAtional ARnis Association-USA) counterpart of (National ARnis Association-PHILippines) Note: “Hiligaynon” and “Kiniray-a” speaking Eskrimador Conrado B. Tortal was a native of Tigbauan, Iloilo Province (Panay Island). Before World War II, his family migrated to the neighboring Negros Island bringing along with them their Eskrima skills from Panay. Mr. Leo Gaje, Jr started US KALI Association during the 1980s only. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pekiti_Tirsia_Kali The recent penchant use of acronyms especially in “Filipino Warrior Sciences and Arts” bespeaks of the ingenuity of our new generation Eskrimadores and Arnisadores. http://www.granitebaykali.com/ KAmot LIhuk- KALI (Hand Movement) Hiligaynon/Visayan KArunungang- LIhim KALI (Secret Knowledge) Tagalog saYAW kamataYAN- YAWYAN (Dance of Death) Tagalog of Napoleon Fernandez AMARA ARKANIS of Loulle Lledo, Jr. http://www.amara-arkanis.com/ Therefore, based on the obscure, inconsistent assertions on the “Kali” word origins and histories it clearly appears that the word “Kali” in FMA is one of the latest inventions of the talented teachers of Eskrima and Arnis in the United States of America (Hawaii and California) between the 1950s and 1970s. It is very clear that the use of Kali in FMAS did not originate in the motherland Philippines. If Cinco Teros has already been recorded as early as 1570 on the leaf of our history by the warrior Bambolito- the Sinawali Warrior from Central Luzon who helped Raja Solaiman defend Tondo (Manila) during the Spanish invasion, then it could have already been called Cinco Teros “Kali” in Laguna and Luzon since then not Cinco Teros Arnis. Apparently, the exaggerated media and advertising hype claiming that the ethnic sounding word “Kali” is the ancient pre-Hispanic "mother art" of “Eskrima” and “Arnis”, it being highly combative, effective, versatile and blade based Filipino Fighting System caught the fancy of the Americans, Filipino-Americans and Europeans enthusiasts alike for something more exotic and ancient. By default and silence, or maybe by the negligent tolerance of Filipino Traditional Eskrimadores and Arnisadores in the native land Philippines that could have contested and disputed such transcendental claims on “Kali”, the Western World FMAS enthusiasts embraced the word “Kali” as truth considering the great skills and effective systems being propagated by the ingenious and talented Eskrimadores/Arnisadores teachers that make such claims. It is unfortunate, that the absence or lack of the computer age global communication technology through the “INTERNET” in the homeland PHILIPPINES during the height of the proliferation of such claims disenfranchised the privilege and right of FMAS researchers, historians and Native Filipino Eskrimadores and Arnisadores who live from their places of origin in the different regions of the Philippines to share and shed the greater light to the obscure and questionable assertions that are being peddled in the “Filipino Warriors Sciences and Arts” world outside the country of origin. The “Filipino Warrior Sciences and Arts” practitioners from Mindanao Southern Philippines, Bangsa Moro, Sultanate of Sulu, Basilan, Zamboanga, Lanao, Marawi are confirming the absence of Kali as the name of the ancient Filipino fighting system in Mindanao more so the claims that it is the mother art of Eskrima/Arnis thus making it appear as superior than Eskrima/Arnis. Therefore, based on the foregoing analysis and facts it is not too late to sit back, to think and do further research or dig deeper into the truth about Kali that is being brought forth to the “Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences” world community. Peace… “Talibung Antike” Panay Island, Philippines --------------------------------- New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:54:03 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Analysis of KALI Origin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net  " Therefore, based on the foregoing analysis and facts it is not too late to sit back, to think and do further research or dig deeper into the truth about Kali that is being brought forth to the “Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences” world community.       Peace…"   I agree with the second paragraph.   I disagree with the first paragraph.  I personally do not feel the need for further research to disprove the kali issue.  Current scholarly research (including posts here at ED) has produced enough preponderance of evidence pointing to that direction.   Facetiously, I have mentioned I am just waiting for that researcher from Tawi-Tawi to step forward with evidence that his village practiced kali way back then.  I do not think he will ever show up.    In one of the first kali discussions here, I think I volunteered that, in all of the years I lived in the Phil., including Mindanao, I never heard anybody use that term in a martial arts context.  I only heard that term in an FMA context coming to the US in the early 70's.   Having said all that...   The reason why this issue is such a sticky wicket is that this sticky wicket may be laid at the doorstep of one or maybe two grandmasters who had a "kali agenda", and several subsequent grandmasters who unwittingly got sucked or suckered into this donnybrook.   Whatever their motivation (deliberate fabrication or innocent belief), they have contributed tremendously in promoting FMA outside the Philippines.  There is no sense calling them to task on the kali issue at this point in time.    As Brutus pointed out, even Caesar had faults.  The good is oft interred with their bones.    As you said, Peace.   Jay de Leon www.tipunan.com   --- On Sun, 8/24/08, Talibung Antike wrote: From: Talibung Antike Subject: [Eskrima] Analysis of KALI Origin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 10:39 AM The people of the Sultanate of Sulu pronounce the word for the bladed weapon "KRIS" as “Ka-lis”. The Bangsa Moro people speak or pronounce "R" as "AL". _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Analysis of KALI Origin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 12:50:58 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At that URL is found; "In some parts of the Philippines, Grandmaster Villabrille is considered a national hero. At the municipal museum on Mactan Island, Cebu, Philippines, Villabrille’s original certificate from Governor- General Frank Murphy hangs next to a statue of Lapu Lapu, the man who is credited for killing Magellan and stopping the Spanish invasion." I assume this is the large statue of LapuLapu holding the shield upside down. I'm not sure about this part regarding the certificate hanging next to the statue...??? Some that have visited there looked for this certificate, but did not see any such thing. Anyone here actually seen this certificate? Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Aug 24, 2008, at 10:39 AM, Talibung Antike wrote: > Eskrimador Agustine (Hawaii) > Eskrimador Floro Villabrille (Visayan Cebuano Speaking from Cebu) > (Hawaii) http://www.villabrillelargusakali.com/villabrille.html --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 14:02:33 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA to WMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i looked at his bio. he did have asian martial arts training before fencing, and he is teaching more than just what those ancient masters is teaching. which makes me thing. how long ago did those ancient masters teach sword fighting? how did he get the knowledge? manuals? thats like learning from a book? no, i dont see nothing wrong with a guy creating a style from what he pulled together from "ancient manual". but what i see is many of these "western martial arts" came from asian martial arts, and they apply their ASIAN martial arts in this western martial arts. that's why they post in FMA forms talking about how superior western martial arts to FMA/asian martial arts. this is why if you look in bios, many of them have FMA/jujitsu/etc in the background. if that's what they want to do, thats their business, but dont come to the FMA forums, saying we got this and that from the franch/spanish/italian etc or its superior to FMA. now we have a problem. but the funny thing is, they pull from the seminar and video tape world, which is the worse of philippine fighting arts to put up those WMA. if you want to learn to fight with a sword/stick to bring it to the WMA, come see a real master of the art. it will be more effective for those WMA. Message: 5 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: western martial arts / guy windsor Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:48:39 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net He was a modern fencer who started studying historical European swordsmanship. Except I don't think the ancient fencing masters (Fiore, Ringeck, Vadi, Fabris, Silver, Viggiani, Marozzo, Angelo) who's works he demonstrates and teaches ever visited the Philippines. Rez --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Analysis of KALI Origin Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 15:53:26 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sorry. To be clear, I have seen a picture of it. I am not questioning the existence of it. Just its physical location. On Aug 24, 2008, at 12:50 PM, Ray wrote: > Anyone here actually seen this certificate? --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest