Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 07:06:02 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #227 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. (no subject) (W S) 2. RE: Re: FMA to WMA (2@msfencing.org) 3. Re: Re: FMA to WMA (Jonathan Kessler) 4. What makes FMA different? (Marc MacYoung) 5. RE: Re: FMA to WMA (2@msfencing.org) 6. Re: GM Ernesto Presas and kali (jay de leon) 7. Kali/Villabrille National Heroe?? why?? (GatPuno@aol.com) 8. Kali-again (william mcgrath) 9. Re: 7107 (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: W S To: "eskrima@martialartsresource.net" Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:16:14 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Therefore, based on the obscure, inconsistent assertions on the “Kali� word >origins and histories it clearly appears that the word “Kali� in FMA is one of >the latest inventions of the talented teachers of Eskrima and Arnis in the United >States of America (Hawaii and California) between the 1950s and 1970s. >It is very clear that the use of Kali in FMAS did not originate in the motherland >Philippines. I don't think the finger can be placed solely on the "talented teachers" of Hawaii and California. Look on page 11 & 12 of Ernesto Presas's book, "Arnis Presas Style and Balisong". This was published around 1988. Late in the Kali debate yes, but "Kali" presented by a talented instructor from the motherland Philipines. One could see how the waters became muddy. Just pointing out if it hasn't been done already. Best regards, William Guro William Schultz Mongrel Combative Arts www.mongrelcombativearts.com _________________________________________________________________ Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: FMA to WMA Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:07:33 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> that's why they post in FMA forms talking about how superior western martial arts to >> FMA/asian martial arts. I haven't seen any such posting on this list claiming the superiority of WMA over FMA. >> this is why if you look in bios, many of them have >> FMA/jujitsu/etc in the background. if that's what they want to do, thats their business, but >> dont come to the FMA forums, saying we got this and that from the franch/spanish/italian >> etc or its superior to FMA. now we have a problem. On which FMA forums have they posted statements that WMA are superior to FMA? As a long time instructor of Western Martial Arts I'd be very interested to know which European martial arts instructors are making these claims. Grace and Peace, Rez --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 17:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: FMA to WMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net My experience, having studied WMA with people who trained diligently from old texts, is that: they put a great deal of effort and research into understanding those methods; their fighting styles did not owe much to, or look much like, FMA or other Asian martial arts - very different footwork, movement styles, etc; they did not go proclaiming their superiority to Asian styles - instead they were trying to mine their own cultural roots for the knowledge that was there, rather than jumping on the general trend in the West of the past 30 years ago (esoteric Asian arts must be better, we have no hand-to-hand arts (despite the popularity of boxing and wrestling...), etc.   Pretty commendable, actually. And training with some of these guys is very enlightening and a lot of fun.   Honestly, I'd encourage anyone who is interested in Largo (rather than Medio or Corto) weapons work to check out a good School of Defence (as many WMA schools are called). --- On Sun, 8/24/08, maurice gatdula wrote: From: maurice gatdula Subject: [Eskrima] Re: FMA to WMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 2:02 PM i looked at his bio. he did have asian martial arts training before fencing, and he is teaching more than just what those ancient masters is teaching. which makes me thing. how long ago did those ancient masters teach sword fighting? how did he get the knowledge? manuals? thats like learning from a book? no, i dont see nothing wrong with a guy creating a style from what he pulled together from "ancient manual". but what i see is many of these "western martial arts" came from asian martial arts, and they apply their ASIAN martial arts in this western martial arts. that's why they post in FMA forms talking about how superior western martial arts to FMA/asian martial arts. this is why if you look in bios, many of them have FMA/jujitsu/etc in the background. if that's what they want to do, thats their business, but dont come to the FMA forums, saying we got this and that from the franch/spanish/italian etc or its superior to FMA. now we have a problem. but the funny thing is, they pull from the seminar and video tape world, which is the worse of philippine fighting arts to put up those WMA. if you want to learn to fight with a sword/stick to bring it to the WMA, come see a real master of the art. it will be more effective for those WMA. Message: 5 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: western martial arts / guy windsor Date: Sat, 23 Aug 2008 15:48:39 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net He was a modern fencer who started studying historical European swordsmanship. Except I don't think the ancient fencing masters (Fiore, Ringeck, Vadi, Fabris, Silver, Viggiani, Marozzo, Angelo) who's works he demonstrates and teaches ever visited the Philippines. Rez _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc MacYoung" To: Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:42:23 -0600 Organization: No Nonsense Self-Defense Subject: [Eskrima] What makes FMA different? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > From: william mcgrath > you tell me, > http://www.swordschool.com/school/syllabus.html > > this curriculums looks lot like it has > philippine martial arts! > > It looks to me that he's using Spanish or > Italian terms. My high school > Spanish is very rusty and my Italian is even > worse, so maybe someone on the > list can translate the terms for us and we'll > see if there are any > similarities. However, it looks like a typical, > highly structured Western > curriculum, rather than the more fluid, concepts > based training method many of > the old timers in FMA were famous for. This looks familiar? http://www.swordschool.com/weapons_systems/rapier.html M --__--__-- Message: 5 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: FMA to WMA Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:32:41 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>but >> dont come to the FMA forums, saying we got this and that from the franch/spanish/italian >> etc ... I seriously doubt that the FMA were influenced by the French or Italian styles of swordsmanship. However, due to the contact between the Spanish and Filipinos it is "possible" that these two groups influenced each other. I know of no proof which is why I only say it is "possible." Since the principles of physics and kinesiology have remained unchanged since creation there have only been so many ways to use knives and swords. Therefore I think it is more likely that folks living in different regions independently discovered the viability of similar fighting techniques. I was not able to view the youtube video mentioned due to a slow connection. However, as far as the online syllabus on Guy Windsor's website is concerned I can say that it is predominantly of Italian origin, much of it being directly from The Flos Duellatorum and Fior di Battaglia which are two Italian fencing manuscripts written by Fiore dei Liberi in 1409. They were written long before Magellan's contact with the Philippines in 1521 so I'm confident that Fior's style of swordsmanship was not influenced by FMA. (nor were the FMA influenced by his). Firo himself says that he studied under masters of arms in both Italy and Germany during the mid to late 1300s. He also mentioned studying under Master Giovanni called Suveno. His rapier material is also Italian coming form the manuals of Ridolfo Capo Ferro and Ridolfo Capo Ferro Some of Mr. Windsor's Longsword syllabus is from the manual of Johannes Liechtenauer who was a 14th century German fencing master. His Sword and Buckler material comes from the Royal Armouries' Ms. I.33, which is also often called the "the Tower manuscript" for its long stay in the London Tower. This is the earliest known surviving European (German) fechtbuch (fightbook/fencing manual). Anyway, copies of these manuals are available for perusal and if you can't read old Italian and German you can at least study the many drawings which show the techniques. On the following webpage you can see the Italian angles of attack which were being taught by Fiore dei Liberi in 1409: http://msfencing.org/angles.html Grace and Peace, Rez --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 18:26:30 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: GM Ernesto Presas and kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Do you mind quoting or paraphrasing what GM Ernesto wrote?  Did he call his style "kali"?   Thank you.   Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com --- On Sun, 8/24/08, W S wrote: From: W S Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) To: "eskrima@martialartsresource.net" Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 5:16 PM >Therefore, based on the obscure, inconsistent assertions on the “Kali� word >origins and histories it clearly appears that the word “Kali� in FMA is one of >the latest inventions of the talented teachers of Eskrima and Arnis in the United >States of America (Hawaii and California) between the 1950s and 1970s. >It is very clear that the use of Kali in FMAS did not originate in the motherland >Philippines. I don't think the finger can be placed solely on the "talented teachers" of Hawaii and California. Look on page 11 & 12 of Ernesto Presas's book, "Arnis Presas Style and Balisong". This was published around 1988. Late in the Kali debate yes, but "Kali" presented by a talented instructor from the motherland Philipines. One could see how the waters became muddy. Just pointing out if it hasn't been done already. Best regards, William Guro William Schultz Mongrel Combative Arts www.mongrelcombativearts.com _________________________________________________________________ Get thousands of games on your PC, your mobile phone, and the web with Windows®. http://clk.atdmt.com/MRT/go/108588800/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:52:34 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali/Villabrille National Heroe?? why?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 8/24/08 7:23:58 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > At that URL is found; > > "In some parts of the Philippines, Grandmaster Villabrille is > considered a national hero.  At the municipal museum on Mactan Island, > Cebu, Philippines, Villabrille’s original certificate from Governor- > General Frank Murphy hangs next to a statue of Lapu Lapu, the man who > is credited for killing Magellan and stopping the Spanish invasion." > > Kali- got a lot of audience and follower, maybe it is not the mother art, but its already there and recognizable FMA. I suggest let take it and move on, as long Kali is embracing all FMA is okay all right, its all good. Now if they are separates themselves to us Eskrimador and Arnisador, then we have problem. In regards of Floro being claim to be National Hero, you have to be recognized nationally. Floro Villabrille we dont even know if he was famous in Visaya, lot of Visayan that live here in Florida and not even one I fond knows the so called National hero Floro Villabrille. Obviously enough that he is not a National Hero, maybe recognized in Cebu or Mactan, then should be recognized as local town hero instead of national. Philippines is 7,100 island and doubt it that the whole cebu or Macton knows Floro Villabrille, therefore is it not to be claim National Hero even the word in some place, it contradict the word National, I even doubt it locally.. maybe in Hawaii on his time, that make more sense to me.. Talibung, remember the Cinco Teros Arnis/Eskrima is not the original name, the original name was Sinawali (Weaving Arts), Kadaanan (old Style), Kabaroan (New Style). Panananadata is Generic name the word is used only to a weaponry in Tagalog speaking region. Like Panuntukan, Suntukan, Buntalan, Dalbugan (Fist Fighting) is generic term also of fighting using fist. Bakbakan, Labanan, Upakan, (In Fighting) is also generic term for Multiple fighter clash fighting each other.. Eskrima/Arnis/Estokada was used the name for the FM arts after Moro-moro are introduced after 1637.. Paete, Laguna was founded 1580, while the Eskrima and Arnis was seen and recorded 1770 as the Gentlemen Games in front of Casa Real (recorded in St James Catholic Church historical events). Sikaran, Tadyakan, Panandyakan, Sipaan, Sikadan, Panikaran, Nagsisipaan, Nagtatadyakan and more are generic term for Kicking arts or two or more than one fighting each other using their feet. Now in stick Fighting, in Luzon we call it Eskrima & Estokada (fencing), Labanan Baston, Brokil, Hatawan, Paloan, Haplitan, Laban Pat-pat (all generic term for Stick fighting). Arnes de Mano, Arnis de Mano, & Arnis also used as term for stickfighting and known more than as the complete arts, with covering weapon from long to short and empty hand from fist, kick to lock and groundfighting. Glad to see FMA in Olympic, Kali or Arnis Eskrima as long FMA in Olympic, its a dream of all of us. I've seen the You Tube for Italian Saber, not worry is not FMA is not the same, its not even look like our strike, they have different approach. Glad to see them and see the differences. Nice to compared to our arts, but I would still say FMA is different. If you think is FMA you consider your arts similar to that, I can see the different the footwork the hold of the weapon, the redirection and the exchange of or strikes is different. Is a night and day.. Sorry..just a my thought. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:59:00 -0700 (PDT) From: william mcgrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Someone wrote me recently asking my thoughts on the whole kali thing. Here's what I wrote back. I remember my instructor (Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje) using the term Kali when he would give a history of FMA before demos from the beginning of my training with him in 1975. He related it to the Indian god and to the influence of the Sri Vijayan empire. As a Christian, I was not very comfortable with the reference to the Indian god and was happy that the name of the first organization Leo started was called Arnis America. He later changed this to NARAUSA (the US counter-part to NARAPHIL). He didn't start the US Kali Association until the mid 80's. In the US back then, there was no controversy about the name Kali. We American students naturally assumed that our Filipino instructor knew what the name of his own art was called. We were told that different parts of the Philippines had different names for FMA. To us, it was no big deal. The techniques were great no matter what the art was called. I think he preferred the name Kali because he wanted a non-Spanish term for a Filipino art. When I started PTI in 1995, the internet was very new and this whole Kali controversy wasn't big then either. I chose Pekiti-Tirsia International instead of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali International because it seemed the natural thing to do (it is also shorter and having the word "International" on a logo doesn't leave you much room for additional words). My belief today is that the word kali must have been used by at least one tribe or group in the old days. However, I don't think there was one single word for sword fighting (or anything else) that was used throughout the Philippines prior to the arrival of the Spanish. To my mind, saying that Kali is the "mother art" is just advertising hyperbole, the kind of exaggeration for effect that I have heard many times from my teacher and other Filipinos. It's on the same level as saying "My style is the best." I would also say that it is just as accurate as saying that Kali is not a legitimate word for a FMA. My teacher's first wife Isabel used to complain about some Filipinos having a "crab mentality;" as when you put several crabs in a bucket and watch how, when one crab tries to climb out, the other crabs would pull him down. Her point being that if they all worked together, then they all could get out of the bucket. This kali argument is a lot like that. Pulling down the name Kali is not going to make Arnis or Eskrima look better to people outside the arts. It just pulls everyone down. And I would like to add this. In his talks on the subject, my teacher, Leo Gaje would refer to a history book on FMA that used the terms Arnis, Eskrima and Kali that he read in college in the Philippines. I'm assuming this was Yumbao's book. My teacher came to the U.S. in 1973. Were there Filipino instructors outside of the Philippines using the name Kali in the 1960's? If so, where did they hear it? Did they get a copy of Yumbao's book in Kaui or California? Or is it possible they remember something that modern people have lost? Alright, maybe it's possible some Filipino masters who use the term kali took the first book on FMA as an authoritative source and maybe they wanted to use a non-Spanish name for their art. Can they really be blamed for that? >From a previous ED post, here is a bit about the section of the introduction to Yumbao's book that refers to kali: This material is found in the chapter entitled "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi's reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na "ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan" (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)" How would you have taken this in 1957, as a young Filipino reading the very first book on FMA? Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com http://www.youtube.com/user/TuhonBillMcg --__--__-- Message: 9 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:07:38 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 7,107 islands. Can't help it. Numbers just stay in my head... Ray On Aug 24, 2008, at 5:52 PM, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Philippines is 7,100 island --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest