Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 18:45:02 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #228 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 2.63 (2004-01-11) on plus11.host4u.net X-Spam-Status: No, hits=1.0 required=5.0 tests=FOR_FREE,NO_REAL_NAME autolearn=no version=2.63 X-Spam-Level: Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Kali in Hawaiian (Ray) 2. Re: 7107 (jay de leon) 3. Ternate, Cavite - the documented entry point of Tjakalele? (Bill Debuque) 4. RE: Kali debate (W S) 5. Re: Kali-again (Rich Acosta) 6. Re: 7107 (Ray) 7. Re: Wikipedia (Ray) 8. CHANBARA (Japanese Fighting Organization) has Challenged FMA Fighters to Compete in a Tournament. (Lawrence, Marc J.) 9. Re: Kali-again (Talibung Antike) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 20:48:13 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Kali in Hawaiian Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Since Floro was -perhaps- one of the earliest users of the word kali for eskrima/arnis I looked up (online) how kali is used in the Hawaiian language since he spent more time there than in the RP. English Hawaiian ================== linger kali loiter kali Christian Kalikiano, Kristiano Christmas Kalikimaka cream Kalima, kalima waiu wait Kali, alia delay Lohi, kali, ho'okali runner 1. Messenger. Kukini. 2. Of a vine. 'Awe'awe, ha'awe'awe; kaili, kali (sweet potato) silk Kilika, kalika hesitate Kali, kunana, kanalua No luck there... Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 21:39:14 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net is that high or low tide? --- On Sun, 8/24/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 7:07 PM 7,107 islands. Can't help it. Numbers just stay in my head... Ray On Aug 24, 2008, at 5:52 PM, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Philippines is 7,100 island _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 00:15:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] Ternate, Cavite - the documented entry point of Tjakalele? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net If you may recall, in previous posts we have established that, as documented by the late Don Draeger, the people of the Moluccas trace their ancestry to Malabar in Southeastern India, which includes a substantial portion of present-day Kerala, the birthplace of the ancient Indian martial art Kalaripayattu.  From Kalaripayattu, evolved several types of stick-based performing arts, all with the suffix "Kali".   Wikipedia says:   "Kolkali is a folk art performed in Kerala a small state in south India. The dance performers move in a circle, striking small sticks and keeping rhythm with special steps. The circle expands and contracts as the dance progress.... Many of the traditional performing art forms of Kerala like Kathakali, Kolkali, Velakali, and Thacholikali have drawn elements from Kalarippayatt during their stages of evolution. Kathakali has borrowed much from Kalarippayattu in its basic body preparative training of the actor not only in terms of technique in practice but also from the body massage for the trainee. Many of the body postures, choreography and foot work of the Kolkali characters are taken directly from Kalarippayattu."    The late Don Draeger was also able to document the existence of a secret ritual involving sticks in the Moluccas - the so-called "Tjakalele".      Here's what Wikipedia says on the history of the powerful kingdoms of the Moluccas:   "Ternate and neighbouring Tidore were the world's single major producer of cloves upon which their rulers became among the wealthiest and most powerful sultans in the Indonesian region. Much of their wealth, however, was wasted fighting each other....  Spanish forces captured the former Portuguese fort from the Ternateans in 1606, deported the Ternate Sultan and his entourage to Manila. In 1607 the Dutch came back in Ternate where with the help of Ternateans built a fort in Malayo. The island was divided between the two powers: the Spaniards were allied with Tidore and the Dutch with their Ternatean allies. For the Ternaten rulers, the Dutch were a useful, if not particularly welcome, presence that gave them military advantages against Tidore and the Spanish.... The Spaniards abandoned Ternate and Tidore in 1663."   One should take note that the term "Spanish Forces" above does not directly mean an all-Spanish force.  In fact, the Spanish Expeditionary Force to the Moluccas substantially consisted of Christianized Filipinos, most of them Visayans - and those who survived the campaign eventually returned to the Philippines when Spain decided to abandon the Moluccas.  One can only imagine the variety of non-indigenous martial art skills that these Visayan veterans brought back to the Philippines - Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch and Moluccan.  And Moluccan martial arts would mean "Tjakalele"...  Taking in context the foregoing, it would also be very hard to claim that our ancestors did not "appropriate" certain European martial arts techniques... The reverse also holds true for the Europeans....   There is, however, a much earlier and better documented possible entry point of "Tjakalele" in the Philippine martial arts scene. Here's what Wikipedia says on the history of Ternate, Cavite:   'The Merdicas/Mardicas were a tribe of Malays of Ternate in the Moluccas which was a small Spanish colony. Before this it was a Portuguese colony. Mardicas, meant "People of the Sea". There were originally seven families, whose family names were Nino Franco, De Leon, Ramos, De la Cruz, Esteubar, Pereira, and Nigoza. In 1574, the merdicas volunteered to come to Cavite to support the Spanish against the threat of invasion of the Chinese pirate, Limahong. The invasion did not occur but the community of Merdicas settled in a place, which at first was named "Gilolo" after a tree similar to theirs in the Moluccas. Then it was changed to "Barra de Maragondon" at a sandbar at the mouth of the Maragondon River. Today, the place is called Ternate and the community of Merdicas continued to use "broken Spanish" which evolved into the full-fedged Philippine Spanish creole called Ternateño or Ternateño Chavacano.' These Ternate warriors are obviously confident that their fighting skills are at par or even better than that of the most feared pirate in East Asia at that time.  Was it because they are very good in "Tjakalele"?  Take note that these Ternate warriors were referred to as "People of the Sea".  The same term was also used to describe Lapu-Lapu and his Mactan warriors.    Is it possible that Gregorio Aglipay got his information that the ancient name for the native martial arts is "Kali" from the descendants of these Ternate warriors?  While Gregorio Aglipay himself is from Batac, Ilocos Norte, as the poster boy of the Cavite faction of the Katipunan, he spends a lot of his time in Cavite - within the inner circle of Kapitan Miong...   It also appears that the original Chavacanos were not from Zamboanga City... but from Ternate, Cavite.... --__--__-- Message: 4 From: W S To: "eskrima@martialartsresource.net" Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 05:34:56 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] RE: Kali debate Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Do you mind quoting or paraphrasing what GM Ernesto>wrote? Did he call his style 'kali'?> >Thank you.> >Jay de Leon Ernesto does not call his art Kali, but if you read the historical section in the beginning of his book, there are references to Kali as being a pre-Eskrima/Arnis art. As I recall, Lapu Lapu is even referred to as a “Kali” warrior. I can post some quotes later when I get home (which is where my book is at the moment). Best regards, William Guro William Schultz www.mongrelcombativearts.com _________________________________________________________________ See what people are saying about Windows Live. Check out featured posts. http://www.windowslive.com/connect?ocid=TXT_TAGLM_WL_connect2_082008 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 23:56:45 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali-again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree whole heartedly with Tuhon Bill about his point regarding the Filipino crab mentality. Thank you Tuhon Bill for bringing up the subject for discussion. I am extremely proud of my filipino heritage but this is one aspect of my culture that I am extremely ashamed of. As I stated last year when this discussion regarding the term "Kali" came up on the list last year, I highly doubt that any of the numerous FMA styles, systems and organizations around the world that use the term "Kali" will change their names to appease the nay-sayers on this or any forum. Regards, Datu Rich Acosta Kuntaw Kali Kruzada Kali Arnis International Philippine Council of Kali Eskrima Arnis Masters > ----- Original Message ----- > Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:59:00 -0700 (PDT) > From: william mcgrath > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Kali-again > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > My teacher's first wife Isabel used to complain about some Filipinos > having a "crab mentality;" as when you put several crabs in a bucket and > watch how, when one crab tries to climb out, the other crabs would pull > him down. Her point being that if they all worked together, then they > all could get out of the bucket. This kali argument is a lot like that. > Pulling down the name Kali is not going to make Arnis or Eskrima look > better to people outside the arts. It just pulls everyone down. > > And I would like to add this. In his talks on the subject, my > teacher, Leo Gaje would refer to a history book on FMA that used > the terms Arnis, Eskrima and Kali that he read in college in the > Philippines. I'm assuming this was Yumbao's book. My teacher came > to the U.S. in 1973. Were there Filipino instructors outside of the > Philippines using the name Kali in the 1960's? If so, where did > they hear it? Did they get a copy of Yumbao's book in Kaui or > California? Or is it possible they remember something that modern > people have lost? > Alright, maybe it's possible some Filipino masters who use the > term kali took the first book on FMA as an authoritative source and > maybe they wanted to use a non-Spanish name for their art. Can they > really be blamed for that? > Regards, > Tuhon Bill McGrath -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 06:26:24 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net High. Ray Begin forwarded message: On Aug 24, 2008, at 9:39 PM, jay de leon wrote: > is that high or low tide? > > --- On Sun, 8/24/08, Ray wrote: > > From: Ray > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Sunday, August 24, 2008, 7:07 PM > > 7,107 islands. > > Can't help it. Numbers just stay in my head... --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Wikipedia Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 06:28:40 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The problem with quoting Wikipedia is that you might very well be reading the rants of a 3rd grader. Not really a citable source. Ray On Aug 25, 2008, at 12:15 AM, Bill Debuque wrote: > Wikipedia says: --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 08:42:39 -0500 From: "Lawrence, Marc J." To: , , "Joe Tan" Subject: [Eskrima] CHANBARA (Japanese Fighting Organization) has Challenged FMA Fighters to Compete in a Tournament. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net USFMAF vs. CHANBARA Challenge FMA Fighters are you up to the Challenge? CHANBARA (Japanese Fighting Organization) has Challenged FMA Fighters to Compete in a Tournament. The initial meeting of CHANBARA and USFMAF will be held on Saturday, September 13th, 2008. At this meeting we will determine the rules and a "MOCK" tournament will be held for some friendly sparring. All FMA fighters are encouraged to be there to watch history being made... at the first competition between the two styles. Chanbara will use Five Traditional Weapons (Padded) Tanto - 18" knife Kodachi - 24" short sword Choken - 40" long sword Yari/Naginata - 6 ft spear Jo and Bo - 4 to 6 ft staff FMA will use Five Traditional Weapons (Padded) Bankaw - Spear Kampilan - Long Sword Double Olisi - Short & Long Stick Espada - Sword Daga - Knife Use of Kalasag - Shield is also being discussed. When: Saturday, September 13th, 2008 4:00 to 8:00 p.m. Where: House of Champions 117228 Saticoy Street, Van Nuys CA 91406 Cost: $35.00 - Includes USFMAF membership & insurance for the event For more information contact: USFMAF President - Darren Tibon - angels.disciples@sbcglobal.net or Web site www.usfmaf.org Regional Sports Organizer - Marc Lawrence - mjlawrence@sbcglobal.net. or call (310) 352-6392 or (310) 420-7062 Web site www.pakamut-fma-torrance Shihan Mark Parra - info@houseofchampions.com or call (818) 996-7180 or Web site www.houseofchampions.com --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 08:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It must be clear to everybody that the expositions of facts about "Kali" in FMA particularly in this venue has nothing personal nor it is intended to pull down a person or a certain group of FMA enthusiasts and practitioners specially those who align their systems under the banner of Kali. We are one of the perpetuators of our Traditional Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences here in our homeland country Philippines and we are doing it as a way of life and not as a living... we live it simply to preserve and perpetuate the treasured cultural heritage of our forbears and not as a livelihood just like some of the FMA practitioners. It is none of our intention to deride nor to convince the FMA practitioners who chose to stick to name their effective system as Kali instead of simply Arnis or Eskrima or Silat or Kuntao or Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) or Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences. We are just using the available media in presenting the facts and information direct from the roots here in the Philippines because we have realized that there are also lots of well meaning FMA researchers, lovers and enthusiasts who are still moving forward in their FMA journey and continue to sincerely seek for the truth and deeper knowledge about the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences but unfortunately do not have the luxury of time and space to personally come to the Philippines and discover these facts for themselves. We have nothing personal to gain about our expositions here as we are not into FMA Business. In fact we are simply sharing our knowledge for FREE without any Seminar Fees etcetera. We are not promoting any other name or system to replace KALI. We are simply giving out what we know, what we have learned and researched because of our love for our country and to share to the world through this venue our rich Cultural Heritage in the light of untarnished TRUTH. Hence, don't drag into this issue of KALI Expose' the "Crab Mentality" of some Filipinos, which is the pulling down of somebody to keep ones self up there. We are simply presenting the facts for those who are sincerely seeking for knowledge and truth... nothing more than that. We have the freedom of CHOICE to believe or not to believe, to follow or not to follow. But, we also have the freedom of expression, freedom to learn and grow in our FMA journey so lets give others this wonderful privelege of learning and growth too. Thank you very much! "Mabuhay... ang Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining!" (Hurray to the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences) Peace... "Talibung Antike" Panay Island Philippines " william mcgrath wrote: Someone wrote me recently asking my thoughts on the whole kali thing. Here's what I wrote back. I remember my instructor (Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje) using the term Kali when he would give a history of FMA before demos from the beginning of my training with him in 1975. He related it to the Indian god and to the influence of the Sri Vijayan empire. As a Christian, I was not very comfortable with the reference to the Indian god and was happy that the name of the first organization Leo started was called Arnis America. He later changed this to NARAUSA (the US counter-part to NARAPHIL). He didn't start the US Kali Association until the mid 80's. In the US back then, there was no controversy about the name Kali. We American students naturally assumed that our Filipino instructor knew what the name of his own art was called. We were told that different parts of the Philippines had different names for FMA. To us, it was no big deal. The techniques were great no matter what the art was called. I think he preferred the name Kali because he wanted a non-Spanish term for a Filipino art. When I started PTI in 1995, the internet was very new and this whole Kali controversy wasn't big then either. I chose Pekiti-Tirsia International instead of Pekiti-Tirsia Kali International because it seemed the natural thing to do (it is also shorter and having the word "International" on a logo doesn't leave you much room for additional words). My belief today is that the word kali must have been used by at least one tribe or group in the old days. However, I don't think there was one single word for sword fighting (or anything else) that was used throughout the Philippines prior to the arrival of the Spanish. To my mind, saying that Kali is the "mother art" is just advertising hyperbole, the kind of exaggeration for effect that I have heard many times from my teacher and other Filipinos. It's on the same level as saying "My style is the best." I would also say that it is just as accurate as saying that Kali is not a legitimate word for a FMA. My teacher's first wife Isabel used to complain about some Filipinos having a "crab mentality;" as when you put several crabs in a bucket and watch how, when one crab tries to climb out, the other crabs would pull him down. Her point being that if they all worked together, then they all could get out of the bucket. This kali argument is a lot like that. Pulling down the name Kali is not going to make Arnis or Eskrima look better to people outside the arts. It just pulls everyone down. And I would like to add this. In his talks on the subject, my teacher, Leo Gaje would refer to a history book on FMA that used the terms Arnis, Eskrima and Kali that he read in college in the Philippines. I'm assuming this was Yumbao's book. My teacher came to the U.S. in 1973. Were there Filipino instructors outside of the Philippines using the name Kali in the 1960's? If so, where did they hear it? Did they get a copy of Yumbao's book in Kaui or California? Or is it possible they remember something that modern people have lost? Alright, maybe it's possible some Filipino masters who use the term kali took the first book on FMA as an authoritative source and maybe they wanted to use a non-Spanish name for their art. Can they really be blamed for that? >From a previous ED post, here is a bit about the section of the introduction to Yumbao's book that refers to kali: This material is found in the chapter entitled "Maikling Kasaysayan ng Arnis" and what was written by Buenaventura Mirafuente, the editor of the book. Mirafuente states that arnis was first known as KALI during the early years of the Spanish conquest. In particular, mention is made of the arrival of Miguel Lopez de Legazpi in 1564 and how he was greeted with demonstrations of the art by the local datu or chieftains and their followers. Legazpi's reaction to those demonstrations is presented in the following: Sa gayon ay nawika ni Legazpi sa sarili na "ang KALI ay hindi lamang larong libangan at pangpalipas ng panahon kundi isang mabising sining ng pagtanggol sa sarili sa larangan ng digmaan" (p.10) (Consequently, Legazpi said to himself "KALI is not only a game and a measure of passing time but also an effective art of self-protection in the realm of warfare".)" How would you have taken this in 1957, as a young Filipino reading the very first book on FMA? Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com http://www.youtube.com/user/TuhonBillMcg _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --------------------------------- New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest