Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2008 01:08:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #229 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Kali-again (jay de leon) 2. Crab Memtality is not only Filipino (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Wikipedia (jay de leon) 4. 7,100 island high tides.. (GatPuno@aol.com) 5. Re: filipino "crab" mentality / WMA windsor (maurice gatdula) 6. Re: CHANBARA (Japanese Fighting Organization) has Challenged FMA Fighters to Compete in a Tournament. (Tom Howanic) 7. Re: 7,100 island high tides.. (Ray) 8. Re: Kali-again (Rich Acosta) 9. RE: Re: filipino "crab" mentality / WMA windsor (2@msfencing.org) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 09:24:57 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Usually, mediators end up getting slammed by both sides.  But I like to live dangerously.   To Talibung Antike;   There is a fine line between being scholarly and being shrill.  The consensus here in the US is that the scholarly evidence against the existence of kali is overwhelming.  Many Phil-born arnisadors here like my kapatid Gatpuno Abon Baet, PG Mat Marinas, myself included, etc.  have known this in their hearts and accept your research.   At the same time, we are acutely aware of the thousands (hundreds of thousands?) of practitioners of FMA who now fly under the banner of kali.  It really makes no difference now whether their founders took the name of kali with either malice or greed or pureness in their hearts.   As I said, to take back the name of kali is like putting toothpaste back in the tube, or whatever came out of Pandora's box.  As my kapatid Abon just posted, just let it be now and let's move on.   It really serves no purpose now to zero in on GM's Gaje, Villabrille, maybe Dan Inosanto, or anybody else.  When one starts using phrases like "untarnished truth," etc., the implication is that the other side was/is living a lie.  That leads to what I call a hardening of the arteries.  The other side now brings out "the crab mentality." And the battle is on once more.  Ayayay.   My unsolicited advice to you is, keep it on a scholarly basis.  What you are doing is very commendable and highly appreciated by most pinoy arnisadors here in the US.  But there is no need to antagonize the thousands of loyal and true practitioners of FMA in the world whose only fault seems to be, that their system is called "kali."   To Tuhon Bill, Crafty Dog, my kapatid Datu Rich Acosta, and anybody else who flies under the banner of kali (by the way, this includes me, since I am a humble practitioner of Inosanto Kali):   Do not take the kali discussion as a personal affront.  It is but a scholarly discussion on the historical origin of a term.  Nobody can take back or diminish the art that you practice.  Your kali is as pure as you guys are as strong and loyal to FMA.   Mabuhay ang Pilipinas at ang arnis (at kali)!   Jay de Leon www.imafp.com this one happens to be Modern Arnis, lol   --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Talibung Antike wrote: From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 8:11 AM It must be clear to everybody that the expositions of facts about "Kali" in FMA particularly in this venue has nothing personal nor it is intended to pull down a person or a certain group of FMA enthusiasts and practitioners specially those who align their systems under the banner of Kali. We are one of the perpetuators of our Traditional Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences here in our homeland country Philippines and we are doing it as a way of life and not as a living... we live it simply to preserve and perpetuate the treasured cultural heritage of our forbears and not as a livelihood just like some of the FMA practitioners. It is none of our intention to deride nor to convince the FMA practitioners who chose to stick to name their effective system as Kali instead of simply Arnis or Eskrima or Silat or Kuntao or Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) or Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences. We are just using the available media in presenting the facts and information direct from the roots here in the Philippines because we have realized that there are also lots of well meaning FMA researchers, lovers and enthusiasts who are still moving forward in their FMA journey and continue to sincerely seek for the truth and deeper knowledge about the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences but unfortunately do not have the luxury of time and space to personally come to the Philippines and discover these facts for themselves. We have nothing personal to gain about our expositions here as we are not into FMA Business. In fact we are simply sharing our knowledge for FREE without any Seminar Fees etcetera. We are not promoting any other name or system to replace KALI. We are simply giving out what we know, what we have learned and researched because of our love for our country and to share to the world through this venue our rich Cultural Heritage in the light of untarnished TRUTH. Hence, don't drag into this issue of KALI Expose' the "Crab Mentality" of some Filipinos, which is the pulling down of somebody to keep ones self up there. We are simply presenting the facts for those who are sincerely seeking for knowledge and truth... nothing more than that. We have the freedom of CHOICE to believe or not to believe, to follow or not to follow. But, we also have the freedom of expression, freedom to learn and grow in our FMA journey so lets give others this wonderful privelege of learning and growth too. Thank you very much! "Mabuhay... ang Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining!" (Hurray to the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences) Peace... "Talibung Antike" Panay Island Philippines --------------------------------- New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:06:36 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Crab Memtality is not only Filipino Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > I agree whole heartedly with Tuhon Bill about his point regarding the > Filipino > crab mentality. Thank you Tuhon Bill for bringing up the subject for > discussion. I am extremely proud of my filipino heritage but this is one > aspect of my culture that I am extremely ashamed of. > > As I stated last year when this discussion regarding the term "Kali" came up > on the list last year, I highly doubt that any of the numerous FMA styles, > systems and organizations around the world that use the term "Kali" will > change their names to appease the nay-sayers on this or any forum. > > Regards, > > Datu Rich Acost > Hey, Crab memtality is not Filipino this is American, believed me first of all is in English, in Filipino Isip Talangka, (this Pinoy), so the Crab is you Gringgo, we are the Talangka.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 11:47:15 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Wikipedia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net master ray:   have you not seen those 3rd grade geniuses on "are you smarter than a 3rd grader?"   of course, i doubt if martial arts is one of their areas of expertise, but then you never know, do you?   jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Mon, 8/25/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Wikipedia To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, August 25, 2008, 6:28 AM The problem with quoting Wikipedia is that you might very well be reading the rants of a 3rd grader. Not really a citable source. Ray On Aug 25, 2008, at 12:15 AM, Bill Debuque wrote: > Wikipedia says: _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:00:45 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] 7,100 island high tides.. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In a message dated 8/24/08 11:41:05 PM, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net writes: > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7107 > Date: Sun, 24 Aug 2008 19:07:38 -0700 > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > 7,107 islands. > > Can't help it.  Numbers just stay in my head... > > Ray > > > On Aug 24, 2008, at 5:52 PM, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > > > Philippines is 7,100 island > > Ray forget to mentioned if the islands depend if it low tide or high tides.. May be more if is low tide, and less if its high tides... Seen it it and live with it half of my life.. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** It's only a deal if it's where you want to go. Find your travel deal here. (http://information.travel.aol.com/deals?ncid=aoltrv00050000000047) --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:15:20 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: filipino "crab" mentality / WMA windsor Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net the interpretation of the "crab" mentality depends to who is speaking. because basically you have two kinds of filipinos. the ones with good education, a little bit of money and sophisticated, with their fancy vocabularies and knowledge. on the other hand you have the simple people from the province, who have very little money, no education, and they are very un-sophisticated people, who tell it like it is and will not flower the truth with fancy wordings and politeness. and if you are talking about martial arts, we are broken down into the same two categories also. some, are only concerned for technique, and effectiveness, and for these men history and stories of duals, and fancy names, ranks titles etc are not important. but opposite of that, you have the martial artist who needs to have the newest, or "ancient", most entertaining ways of doing things--effectiveness is not the point, as much as arguments of "original" and stuff. these are the men who brag, show everything they know, give themselves fancy titles, and names, and argue lineage and licenses and biographies and histories and resumes and organizations. everybody this is another name for "politics". so you have one guy in the bucket, who is to himself and teaches and trains fighters. on the other hand you have the guy who gets out of the bucket and makes himself famous, more famous than the art he teaches, and every time you read about an article its not about the majority in the bucket is about the guy who got out of the bucket, punong/dakilang/supreme grand puba master extrodinaire so-in-so. so back to our (the guys in the bucket) definition of "FILIPINO" crab mentality, it is the guy who gets out of the bucket who does not reach back and pull up his brothers who are left behind. so in other words, the one who gets into the limelights of the FMA promotes himself and his style, and unique "only we have this kind of" art, and forgets to tell the world about the great fighters and masters who are not of the fancy smancy style you do, no but the guy in the province who is doing, plain old arnis or eskrima. you know when i was in the east coast, i was just a filipino martial artist. i fight in point tournaments and did kuo shu. i did everharts tri area, us capitol classics, and tompkins. i boxed in ham johnsons and in arbutus. just a FMA guy. now here in california, i have to explain to wise ass students who nothing about FMA, with their incorrect tagalog names and FMA history, why i dont have forms, or sinawali, and why i'm a muslim but i dont do kali or silat (actually i do know silat, but i dont teach it). how come we dont do drills. or give certificates. why i am not a member of any FMA organization. i once heard that lito lanada does not "recognize" my kuntaw? oh yeah? well i dont recognize his either! but some shorin ryu people in okinawa might.... the point is FMA is popular, but very few people get the actual art and culture with the art. what they get more than anything else is a few drills learn to fight a little and a whole lot of "master me me me". even to the point that the ones who are just doing the art, pure and simple, dont look "authentic enough". william is right, crab mentality is to blame for that. back to the WMA thing, i am not saying spanish and italian "got it from us". i am saying many (not ALL) of the WMA people, james keating, Windsor, and and few more, learned asian martial arts, and now that they are WMA people, teach some of this FMA in there WMA. and like i said, thats cool, do it, its your culture! but dont put down my culture because you like your own better. and dont insult us by saying, we got it from you guys, just because we look similar. you know, my little brother asked me one time after he saw some movie (i think it was ZORRO), hey that mexican guy is teaching eskrima! i told him the numbers and angles are the same, because in mexico, their throat, heart, and intestines are in the same place as the filipino's. maybe that explains why is so similar, the eurpeans and filipinos used the same biology book... i cant send you to the same places i read about WMA vs FMA on the FMA boards, theres plenty of it. but here, you can read animal mac's posts, or his articles on the computer, his believes that his knife fighting is more effective than asian arts. also, i think kelly worden has some, and hoch hockheim, and definitely james keating. some of those venezuela stick guys (garrote) do the same thing vs. FMA. see lots of people get a new idea, and the way they promote is to put down the arts where they came from. many FMA people do it with the karate or TKd that they came from. if i find a link i can post it later. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Tom Howanic" To: Subject: Re: [Eskrima] CHANBARA (Japanese Fighting Organization) has Challenged FMA Fighters to Compete in a Tournament. Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:08:40 -0500 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Wish I could be there! Hope someone films it! tom --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] 7,100 island high tides.. Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 12:22:11 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net By the United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea, which the RP gov has ratified, an island must be able to "sustain human habitation". The 7,107 actual islands claimed by the RP government as The Republic of the Philippines are "islands", i.e. they're still there at high tide. Or so the RP gov claims. Me? I've never found any beyond 7,101. :) Ray On Aug 25, 2008, at 11:00 AM, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > > Ray forget to mentioned if the islands depend if it low tide or high > tides.. > May be more if is low tide, and less if its high tides... > > Seen it it and live with it half of my life.. --__--__-- Message: 8 From: "Rich Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 14:52:05 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Kali-again Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Talibung, Let's agree that we all disagree and leave it at that. Peace to you as well. Regards, Rich Acosta ----- Original Message ----- Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 08:11:59 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Kali-again To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It must be clear to everybody that the expositions of facts about "Kali" in FMA particularly in this venue has nothing personal nor it is intended to pull down a person or a certain group of FMA enthusiasts and practitioners specially those who align their systems under the banner of Kali. We are one of the perpetuators of our Traditional Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences here in our homeland country Philippines and we are doing it as a way of life and not as a living... we live it simply to preserve and perpetuate the treasured cultural heritage of our forbears and not as a livelihood just like some of the FMA practitioners. It is none of our intention to deride nor to convince the FMA practitioners who chose to stick to name their effective system as Kali instead of simply Arnis or Eskrima or Silat or Kuntao or Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) or Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences. We are just using the available media in presenting the facts and information direct from the roots here in the Philippines because we have realized that there are also lots of well meaning FMA researchers, lovers and enthusiasts who are still moving forward in their FMA journey and continue to sincerely seek for the truth and deeper knowledge about the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences but unfortunately do not have the luxury of time and space to personally come to the Philippines and discover these facts for themselves. We have nothing personal to gain about our expositions here as we are not into FMA Business. In fact we are simply sharing our knowledge for FREE without any Seminar Fees etcetera. We are not promoting any other name or system to replace KALI. We are simply giving out what we know, what we have learned and researched because of our love for our country and to share to the world through this venue our rich Cultural Heritage in the light of untarnished TRUTH. Hence, don't drag into this issue of KALI Expose' the "Crab Mentality" of some Filipinos, which is the pulling down of somebody to keep ones self up there. We are simply presenting the facts for those who are sincerely seeking for knowledge and truth... nothing more than that. We have the freedom of CHOICE to believe or not to believe, to follow or not to follow. But, we also have the freedom of expression, freedom to learn and grow in our FMA journey so lets give others this wonderful privelege of learning and growth too. Thank you very much! "Mabuhay... ang Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining!" (Hurray to the Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences) Peace... "Talibung Antike" Panay Island Philippines -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --__--__-- Message: 9 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: filipino "crab" mentality / WMA windsor Date: Mon, 25 Aug 2008 16:19:18 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> back to the WMA thing, i am not saying spanish and italian "got it from us". i am saying >> many (not ALL) of the WMA people, james keating, Windsor, and and few more, learned >> asian martial arts, and now that they are WMA people, teach some of this FMA in there >> WMA. OK, I understand what you meant now. I couldn't view the YouTube video mentioned so I cant comment whether the person in question was incorporating Asian/FMA techniques into his teaching of Western Swordsmanship. I think folks should be honest about where each part of what they are teaching comes from. I've been teaching Western Fencing, both Classical and Historical, since 1980 and while I have incorporated some methods of drilling (such as flow drills) from FMA and Asian Martial Arts, the techniques I teach are strictly from historical European sources. Many of the teaching methodologies developed by FMA and Asian Martial Arts are often very practical means of training students of different weapons and styles. >> and like i said, thats cool, do it, its your culture! but dont put down my culture >> because you like your own better. Folks can and should have a sense of pride in their own culture and also in their own martial art style without putting down other cultures and styles. The same goes for names master choose to give their variant of FMA, be it Eskrima, Arnis, Kali or something else. >> and dont insult us by saying, we got it from you guys, >> just because we look similar. you know, my little brother asked me one time after he saw >> some movie (i think it was ZORRO), hey that mexican guy is teaching eskrima! i told him >> the numbers and angles are the same, because in mexico, their throat, heart, and intestines >> are in the same place as the filipino's. maybe that explains why is so similar, the eurpeans >> and filipinos used the same biology book... I agree. That was my point when I said that Physics is Physics, Kinesiology is Kinesiology, humans are all the same biomechanically. >> i cant send you to the same places i read about WMA vs FMA on the FMA boards, theres >> plenty of it. but here, you can read animal mac's posts, or his articles on the computer, his >> believes that his knife fighting is more effective than asian arts. also, i think kelly worden >> has some, and hoch hockheim, and definitely james keating. some of those venezuela stick >> guys (garrote) do the same thing vs. FMA. see lots of people get a new idea, and the way >> they promote is to put down the arts where they came from. many FMA people do it with >> the karate or TKd that they came from. if i find a link i can post it later. It is sad when folks have to put others down to build themselves up. I think the folks that make these comments about being better than other arts should prove it by putting their art where their mouth is through a series of contests and challenge matches, like what the USFMAF and CHANBARA associations are attempting to do. Grace and Peace, Rez --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest