Date: Sun, 31 Aug 2008 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #234 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: the dancing Guro (Ray) 2. Subject: [Eskrima] Re: "ILAGA Eskrimadores back in action" (Bill Debuque) 3. Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Ternate, Cavite - the documented entry point of Tjakalele (Bill Debuque) 4. Re: the dancing Guro (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the dancing Guro Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:00:11 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Don't believe him folks. I hear that in Guro Jay's peregrinations he is frequently seen dancing the sakuting, even today. Esp at KTV, after a bit too much to drink... :) Ray On Aug 29, 2008, at 9:22 AM, jay de leon wrote: > > i danced the sakuting at a school performance > when i was a wee grade schooler. > > sakuting is a folk dance, danced with two or > double sticks executed with many arnis-like > movements, something resembling witiks. --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 18:09:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: "ILAGA Eskrimadores back in action" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Van!   I cannot forget the response I got when, as a young kid of about 8, I asked a veteran of the early 1970s Mindanao War.   Me: Did your unit kill a lot of "Muklo"?   Veteran: Yes.  The sad thing about it though, once they are dead and you get to view them up close, they looked just exactly like us - and then you start to wonder why are you killing one another in the first place.   Message: 2 Date: Thu, 28 Aug 2008 22:18:22 -0700 (PDT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] "ILAGA Eskrimadores back in action" Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of our mentors (name withheld for security reasons) in Traditional Eskrima in Antique, Panay Island Philippines (late 1970s to early 80s) who has an aversion to get photographed was one of the leaders of this ILAGA Vigilante Movement during the height of the Mindanao Conflict circa late 1960s to early 1970s until the then President Ferdinand Marcos Declared Martial Law last September 21, 1972. From his peaceful life in Antique, once again he’s back to Mindanao even in his ripe old age (with his Talibung etcetera of course) to ensure his families, fellow migrants (Kasimanwas) from Panay and other parts of the country, peace loving natives (Lumads) as well as peace loving Muslims who peacefully coexisted with them in Mindanao are protected and ready for any eventuality against the threats to their lives and properties. This is the very essence of the not so known classical Tradisyonal Eskrima systems in “Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences� that some of us (Tradisyonalistas) still practice and live as a way of life and not just as a livelihood here in our homeland Philippines. Just like our forebears from past generations we have never called these “Traditional Filipino Warrior Arts and Sciences� as “Kali�. It is just known as “Mga Kina-adman Ha-nga-way� such that, up to this day some of these Traditional Warrior Arts and Sciences are not taught in group or classroom setting, gym or large group environment. The major difference in the essence of its practice is the mindset of survival and real life confrontation effectiveness which deviate from the prevalent westernized and modern times mindset of friendly competition, safety, sportsmanship, propagation, business viability, and general public acceptance. The essence of our practice FMAS may be different but of course we believe that we are in unity in our quest for lasting PEACE and safety and prosperity. Pray for lasting PEACE in Mindanao, Philippines! “Talibung Antike� Panay Island, Philippines --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 17:49:42 -0700 (PDT) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Ternate, Cavite - the documented entry point of Tjakalele To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Tim!   Please find my responses below. Message: 3 Date: Fri, 29 Aug 2008 07:46:50 -0700 (PDT) From: tim To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Ternate, Cavite - the documented entry point of Tjakalele? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> kalarippayattu (indian martial art) -> kolkali (indian >> stick dance) -> tjakalele (mollucan stick dance) -> >> kali (ternate, cavite martial art) >> >> But this only pertains to the documented Moluccan >> connection of the term. >how would a people, who do not have their own fighting arts, be able to take a >stick dance two generations removed from fighting arts, and be able to >construct a fighting art from it?  if that were how it actually happened, >would it not be safe to assume that the caviteños already had knowledge of >fighting?  and if so, could you really say that their fighting art came from >the dances, much less from kalarippayattu, which had been sanitized by at >least two versions of dancing? >furthermore, why would the the caviteños name their art after a portion of the >name of the stick dance previous to the stick dance they learned?   My Response:   If you take a very close look at my post above, I never claimed that "Kali" could have pertained to the martial arts of all Cavitenos but rather only to the martial arts of those hailing from the town of Ternate, which has been documented to be the descendants of Moluccans, a people who practice "Tjakalele" as documented by Draeger in the 1960s.  Other Cavitenos (who would probably be Tagalogs) would surely have their own martial art (take note that it was claimed that the Moluccans were resettled to Cavite because they were consistently fighting with the Tagalogs in Manila), but there is no documentation that can give us a hint as to its name, if ever there was one.   Certainly though, those who fought under the Spanish flag in the Moluccas would also have undergone training in the Spanish MA.  This means that Western blade techniques entered the MA menu of the typical Christianized Filipino Warrior as far back 400 years ago.      With respect to MA "dancing", historically, most Southeast Asian MAs always have two aspects - the ceremonial aspect and the combatives aspect.  In silat, if I remember it right, they call the ceremonial/dancing part "kembang" (flower) and the combatives part "bunga" (fruit).   This is probably the same case with Kalaripayattu and the various "Kali" performing arts.  One must bear in mind that "Kali" is just the feminine version of "Kala".   In the case of the FMA, "Arnis" originally referred to the ceremonial aspect of the FMA wherein Filipino actors are made to don an "Arnes" while performing fighting techniques in the Moro-moro plays of the Spanish colonial authorities.  What is the specific name of the combatives aspect then?  There appears to be none, because as a conquered people, the possession of combative knowledge would have gotten our ancestors into a lot of difficulties with the colonial authorities.  Of course, when we already got our independence, oldtimers started calling it "Combat Arnis".   In the present day FMA, the aspects have increased from 2 to 3 - ceremonial, combatives and sports.  Interestingly, silat has also experienced the same evolution.   >> One must take into account that, until today, the >>Javanese refers to "Borneo" as "Kalimantan". >why must that be taken into account?  what relevance does it have?   My response:   There appears to be a  "KALI" in "Kalimantan".  What does it stand for?  If someone could decipher what does that stand for maybe it will have relevance on the Borneo/Kalimantan connection of Philippine Martial Arts.  In the Indonesian/language "Mantan" means "experienced".  Literally, therefore, "Kalimantan" could be literally interpreted as "Experienced in Kali".  Of course, we should know first in what context was "Kali" used in "Kalimantan" before we can make a definite conclusion. > So, if the Moluccans call their martial art "Tjakalele" but they don't; they call a stick >dance 'tjakalele.'  that's akin to saying that the filipinos call their martial art 'sakuting.'   My response:   Please refer to my post above on the role of "dancing" in Southeast Asian MA.   Furthermore "Tjakalele" only documented by Draeger in the 1960s.  We do not actually know what the Moluccans call their art during the Spanish conquest of Ternate in the late 16th Century.  Draeger was also only able to document the ceremonial aspect of the Moluccan MA.  He was silent on what the combatives aspect is called.    >> it is  highly remote that the >>Sumatran/Javanese would call theirs >> by the same name.  Probably a highly similar name, but >>not exactly the same name.  >we know of many names that the sumatrans and javanese call their arts, such as >silat, silek, pencak, and mancak.  why do you assume that there is one similar >to tjakalele? The MA names you have cited all pertain to the Islamic/Arabic phase of Sumatran/Javanese history which started about 600 years ago. The height of military prowess of the various Sumatran/Javanese empires, on the other hand, was about 800 years to 1,300 years ago during the so-called Buddhist/Hindu/Indian phase of their history.  What was the name(s) of Sumatran/Javanese MA during that time?        --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sat, 30 Aug 2008 07:59:10 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the dancing Guro To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net not quite, grandmaster terry.  nowadays, it is no longer the sakuting or with two sticks, but with two chicks (at the very least).   jay de leon the dancing guro www.filipinofightingartsintl.com     --- On Fri, 8/29/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: Re: [Eskrima] the dancing Guro To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, August 29, 2008, 5:00 PM Don't believe him folks. I hear that in Guro Jay's peregrinations he is frequently seen dancing the sakuting, even today. Esp at KTV, after a bit too much to drink... :) Ray On Aug 29, 2008, at 9:22 AM, jay de leon wrote: > > i danced the sakuting at a school performance > when i was a wee grade schooler. > > sakuting is a folk dance, danced with two or > double sticks executed with many arnis-like > movements, something resembling witiks. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest