Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 02:48:26 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #305 - 6 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. 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See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Stealing (Tim Waid) 2. PKTChallenge??? (GatPuno@aol.com) 3. Re: Stealing (Ray) 4. PKT Challenge ! (jorge penafiel) 5. Re: PKTChallenge??? (Andrew Maddox) 6. Re: Stealing--to tim waid (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 29 Nov 2008 23:58:29 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Waid To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Stealing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net “Stealing may be a strong word, but Cacoy has said several times that Leo lived one summer with Cacoy's top student and trained in Doce Pares.  This was later integrated into his PT.”   This is nothing but the “if you can’t beat them, join them” tactic. Only they can’t join, so they claim “I trained him” or “he took/adopted/stole that technique/style/whatever from me or my style”   Anyone can make such a statement, but none can back it up with any empirical evidence. And in this case, there is simply no comparison or any semblance, beyond the commonalities of all FMA, between Pekiti-Tirsia and Doce Pares (or any other that make such claims). I can back this statement up because in my past training history I have trained and exchanged knowledge with several Doce Pares practitioners both in the US and Cebu, Dong Cuesta among others, and can quote GM Diony Canete from personal training and conversation.   First, let’s look at history and the facts. The Pekiti-Tirsia system of Tuhon Leo Gaje is known throughout the world as a combat Filipino Bladefighting system, with martial artists seeking him out to specifically learn the blade along with all other aspects of the system. No other Filipino martial artist has contributed more and is recognized more within professional law enforcement than GM Leo Gaje (this November 7th he was awarded the Edgar J. Hoover Award for lifetime Education and Training of US law Enforcement by the National Association of Chiefs of Police and the American Police Hall of Fame, the latest recognition among many others spanning the last 30+ years). With the Philippine National Police, while there are many local FMA instructors that teach within a municipality or area, no other FMA has been adopted as official doctrine and training by PNP Headquarters as Pekiti-Tirsia has. PTK conducts instructor cadre courses for Officers from every region in the country through the Directorate for Human Resource and Doctrine Development, at the PNP Academy, the PNP Public Safety College, and is the official combat system for the Special Action Force (SAF), among other specialized units of the PNP. In the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP), Pekiti-Tirsia has been the official close-quarters-combat system for the Philippine Marine Corps for the past decade, and now is being instituted as official doctrine for all AFP Special Operations Forces, as well as other combat arms units in the AFP. No one, or any other FMA system or style, has challenged these positions because they are based on the proven combat effectiveness of Pekiti-Tirsia.   In comparison, Doce Pares, either from the GM Cacoy or GM Diony lineage, is primarily a sport style as evidenced from their worldwide sport tournament promotions, and mainly a stick style. For example, GM Diony Canete personally told me they threw out all of the traditional footwork except for the reverse triangle and adopted boxing footwork. Pekiti-Tirsia has a complete traditional, and I might add, Filipino, footwork system absolutely essential for fighting with and against a blade. Boxing will not suffice. No one disputes the statement of GM Cacoy himself that Eskrido is a combination of Doce Pares and Judo and Aikido. Pekiti-Tirsia trapping, locking and throwing tactics and techniques come from a close quarters tapping method and a blade disarming method, and we don’t grab the weapon (unless we know it is an impact weapon) as is common in Doce Pares. If you want to look at training methods, an advanced Pekiti-Tirsia practitioner never stands in one place and feeds attacks, conveniently stopping them mid-strike, while the defender takes a position that even if he would hit the weapon hand they would still be hit by the opponents weapon, and then goes on to strike 3, 4, or more times. This is the method of Doce Pares, and many other FMA as well. Pekiti-Tirsia is always dynamic, as is combat itself, with precise striking and footwork maneuvering that works against full power strikes and attacks. And yes, if the combat starts at close-quarters, we still attack and quarter the opponent(s). Personally, I have greater respect for the “Old Style” Doce Pares or the San Miguel of GM Momoy Canete.   Maybe the pseudo-nationalists such as Mr. Red Gonzales should direct his energy to justifying why Doce Pares and Modern Arnis, among others, use Japanese dress, belts, and salutations within their Philippine Martial Arts. Imagine bowing, the fiercely hated act that was forced upon Filipinos by the Japanese oppressors and occupiers during WWII, being adopted as formal protocol for many FMA. Sad but true.   Pekiti-Tirsia is a true, authentic Filipino Martial Art, passed to Grand Tuhon Gaje by his Grandfather Conrado Tortal, and one that is evidence of the Filipino genius in formulating edged, impact, and empty-hands weapon systems. Grand Tuhon Gaje has never said Pekiti-Tirsia is the best FMA and neither do I. I will however entertain anyone if they want to discuss or actually see what the Pekiti-Tirsia system is anytime.   I suggest concentrating on propagating your own FMA based upon its’ own merits, rather than trying to ride on the real successes and accomplishments of Pekiti-Tirsia.   Tim Waid Pekiti-Tirsiawww.pt-go.com --__--__-- Message: 2 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 12:08:43 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] PKTChallenge??? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on > FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test > of oneself how effective a style or  system all about FMA. Those who > are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out > from  their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes > out from  their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization > calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of > woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the > stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue. > > Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your > capabilities. > > Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground > >                Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila > > Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am. > > Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com > > TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320 > > You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make > your reservation. > http://pekiti-tirsia.typepad.com/pekititirsia_kali/2007/09/test-of-skill-i.ht > > ml > > As promised Gat Puno I dug these up! These are posted on the pt-go.com site > for everybody, no discrimination - "Equal opportunity." > > John MOntes, I was personally invited to this "Gathering" by GT Leo Gaje, whne we meet here in Sunny Florida PTK Seminar. I alos meet Jun de Leon of Kali de Leon that time. I understand this is challenge letter, but it distributed not in public, it was distributed in PTK only. Thank you forwarding it to the group and I will contact GT Leo Gaje in regards to this matter. As you know to travel is not cheap now adays, but if they will accomdate my family, my own brothers and Uncle tobe with them to this event, I muchwould love that. The Challenge is sound like a Seminar training events. Taguig is not far from my home town, I used to travel there for Singing Contest, I won two Championship in Singing there, as you can see I was motivated by money when Iwas leaving there in PI. Now let go back, to the Challenge, we have to understand NO money involve in fight or Stick fights is not going to be succesfull turn out. Becaused only those people that want to test their skill will join and they will call or coined them "STUPID" by Pinoy, becaused if you want to test your skill without getting money of out it, then go to a Bar or just go outside and start creates trouble let see if you dont get what you alooking for. You have a choice of fighting single to multiple opponent "NO" money involve. This is common in the Philippines, but if you call the fight is organized then "Money" should be involve, ifyou will do it in Philippines. Unless all of the attendance of the this gathering have entrance fee or daily charge. Then the organization or GT Gaje is the only one making the money not the fighter, Sorry I think It's gonna be a hard time to convince the Laguna fighter to travel there and fight for nothing. Now my challenge is different, you dont need to pay me to sparr with me, all you have to do is agree that we will be drinking Beer or Cervesa together afterwards. No hate or anger feelings, just strictly friendly match. If might not be the Ultimate but atleast is me or my student the one will play fight with you. If this is make us less than a Man than they talk about be it, atleast we are truth to ourselves. Salamat and hope one day, every Kalista, Eskrimadores and Arnisadores, can get along to one goal Unity. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Life should be easier. So should your homepage. Try the NEW AOL.com. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp&icid=aolcom40vanity& ncid=emlcntaolcom00000002) --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stealing Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 08:46:37 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Talk to Cacoy. He will give you the exact dates, location, people involved, etc. What does someone like Cacoy have to gain from making a false claim, esp regarding someone 20 years his junior? He was already starting to fight and earn his rep when Leo was just a babe in arms. Nothing against Leo. Just the facts. Now whether he used what he learned is the real question. Perhaps little to nothing. Ray On Nov 29, 2008, at 11:58 PM, Tim Waid wrote: > Anyone can make such a statement, but none can back it up > with any empirical evidence. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "jorge penafiel" To: Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:05:33 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] PKT Challenge ! Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There you go - PKT has a Challenge! Specially for a lot of us who are Idiots who needs to be cleansed, studied stupid FMA that does not work, were fooled by our Instructors, are only money mongers, key board warriors and best of all had not come to the Philippines for test of strength a man of destiny. Jeepers,,,a lot of Testosterone here!! Guess I'll remained an idiot by simply having read this note showing lots of machoness and braggadocio. Thought we're here in ED to supposedly discussed FMA and not challenging each other and or resorting to harsh words or belittling other systems!!Enough fighting and challenges going around the world already! Jorge Penafiel --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 19:58:10 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] PKTChallenge??? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sun, 30 Nov 2008, GatPuno@aol.com wrote: > Now my challenge is different, you dont need to pay me to sparr with me, all > you have to do is agree that we will be drinking Beer or Cervesa together > afterwards. No hate or anger feelings, just strictly friendly match. If might > not > be the Ultimate but atleast is me or my student the one will play fight with > you. If this is make us less than a Man than they talk about be it, atleast we > are truth to ourselves. See, Gat Puno, I'm with you, sir - that is *definitely* my kind of "challenge"! The "get together, spar some, then have a couple of beers and tell stories" way. Of course, as out of practice as I am, I'd have to ask anyone to agree to go extra-easy on me, or it wouldn't be any fun at all. > Salamat and hope one day, every Kalista, Eskrimadores and Arnisadores, can > get along to one goal Unity. So say we all! -- Andrew Maddox, madsox2k at freeshell dot org Practitioner of Unaffiliated Martial Arts But really just, like, this guy, y'know? --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 14:15:11 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stealing--to tim waid To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tim Waid:   thank you for posting in this forum.    for those who have read my articles, i have acknowledged the prominence and contribution to FMA of Pekiti Tirsia, the founding Tortals, Leo Gaje and his senior students like Rommel Tortal and Tim Waid, who i believe is the highest ranking PKT practitioner in the US in the Gaje organization (not counting independents like my friend Tuhon Bill McGrath).   Having said all that, i would like to give my dalawang centimo worth, and with the current exchange rate, we know what that is worth.   Remy Presas did pattern many aspects of his Modern Arnis with the Japanese systems of martial arts.  You can see it in the belt and ranking system, the katas, and yes, the bowing, albeit with the stick.   A little historical background is in order.  By the time Remy was trying to promote Modern Arnis both in the public and private school as well as the general public, the premier martial arts then were Kodokan judo (especially in the 50's), followed by karate (mostly Latino Gonzales shorin-ryu) in the 60's, with a sprinkling of other karate systems, aikido and jiu-jitsu (called combat judo in the Phil.).   I have written extensively about this in my articles, and at one time, PG Mat Marinas and I reminisced about the martial arts scene in Manila in the 60's and early 70's, here at ED.   For kids then born after the war, there were no memories of WWII and the Japanese occupation. I only read about it in history books, saw a Japanese Zero on display on Lingayen beach in Pangasinan, and heard an occasional story from my dad about the Japanese occupation.   Sidebar:  Both my mom and dad learned to speak passable conversational Japanese as a result of the Occupation.   During these times, arnis was far from glamorous. But the Japanese arts were.  I saw pictures of arnisadors back then, and i thought, they look like peasants.  i wouldn't be caught dead wearing red loose pants and t-shirts.    so for years i wore first, a judo kimono or uniform. i did not learn the word "gi" until i came to the US in the mid-70's.  then i wore a shorin-ryu karate uniform or kimono (smile when you say kimono, Crafty).  don't forget i was a manila boy from a "richie" school, as Mat Marinas called it.   so i can understand Remy trying to relate arnis to something kids knew and admired.  also, just like manong cacoy and many other arnis notables, remy was a judo and karate practitioner.   so to equate remy's use of elements of the japanese martial arts and nationalism (or the lack of it) is just out of line.   a word about WWII and the Japanese Occupation of the Phil.    Balbino Tortal, brother to Conrado, was shot and killed by Japanese soldiers after he killed a couple of them in a fight.   It is understandable that the immediate family then would still possibly harbor feelings of enmity against the Japanese even now.   Very few families then were untouched by the sad realities of war then.  I had three immediate relatives who fought in that war, including a grandfather who fought as a Philippine Scout in Corregidor and survived the Bataan Death March, and an uncle who was a pilot and died in the line of duty, in a training accident.    A "De Leon" street in Nichols Air Base is named after him, Capt. Napoleon de Leon.  His young widow raised their six children without bitterness or fanfare.   By the time it got to my generation, there was practically no anti-Japanese sentiment.  So there was no negative connotation to Japanese words, bowing, or the like.   Just my own personal thoughts on this matter.    jay de leon  www.filipinofightingartsintl.com     --- On Sat, 11/29/08, Tim Waid wrote: From: Tim Waid Subject: [Eskrima] Stealing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Saturday, November 29, 2008, 11:58 PM   Maybe the pseudo-nationalists such as Mr. Red Gonzales should direct his energy to justifying why Doce Pares and Modern Arnis, among others, use Japanese dress, belts, and salutations within their Philippine Martial Arts. Imagine bowing, the fiercely hated act that was forced upon Filipinos by the Japanese oppressors and occupiers during WWII, being adopted as formal protocol for many FMA. Sad but true.   Tim Waid Pekiti-Tirsiawww.pt-go.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest