Date: Mon, 01 Dec 2008 21:28:00 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #306 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. re: Gaje (Bo Kaner) 2. Re: Stealing (Tim Waid) 3. NO MONEY, NO HONEY (james jr. sy) 4. Re: Stealing (james jr. sy) 5. Re: Stealing (Red Gonzales) 6. Re: Re: Stealing (Ray) 7. Why Pot Money required for an Open Challenge in the Philippines if ever? (Eugenio Agustin) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 04:19:32 -0800 (PST) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re: Gaje Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net To those who idlolize Leo Gaje, Kindly ask him this, that before he went to the United States where did he trained in Bacolod city and who gave him his certificate as an Arnis practitioner? Not Kali. Why did he not acknoowledge the old man who gave him the certificate up to now? Maybe Mr. Red Gonzales can enlighten us on this. Bo --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2008 21:45:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Waid To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Stealing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Ray,   Indeed, the fact that GM Cacoy has nothing to gain from that statement is the reason why I replied in the first place. It certainly is true that GM Gaje and the Canete GM’s were acquaintances if not friends in the 70’s and early 80’s. GM Diony was a guest judge at the Pekiti-Tirsia Pilipino Palarong in 1979 at the Philippine Embassy in New York and they all worked together during the NARAPHIL tournaments during the same year in the Philippines. Certainly there would be, and is, some exchange of knowledge among peers as such. But to claim one “trained” in a particular style and later “integrated Doce Pares into Pekiti-Tirsia” is just ridiculous and out of character for any Grandmaster. GM Gaje had more than three decades of mastery skill by the 70’s, not to mention bringing Tom Bisio to Cebu in 79’ where he won as co-champion (that’s another story) of the Instructors division, against Doce Pares players with twice his years of training and experience. Actually, I usually don’t bother with the subject because it is so trivial, and anyone with any respectable level of FMA skill, who is not delusional, would conclude there is no comparison between the two. What is more important are the facts of the two systems as they stand today, and with that there truly is no comparison.   Jay,   I do respect your experiences and history of martial arts training in the Philippines during the years following the war. It would also be rare if anyone on this list would have studied FMA exclusively and without experiencing other martial systems. We do know why the FMA was not glamorous at the time; one because those skilled masters kept their knowledge within their respective clans, not for consumer benefit, as was the ethos during that time. I’m sure you would agree that in the provinces the hatred for the Japanese was still quite relevant as I personally experienced in several different regions.   I have great respect for the Presas GM’s as well. Before beginning my study of Pekiti-Tirsia I trained at Ernesto Presas school in the Manila university belt area in the late 80’s, and with a relative who was a Modern Arnis Guro while I was living in Tuguegarao, Cagayan and training with several former veterans of the USAFFE Guerrilla units. I do know that GM Remy was skilled far beyond the Modern Arnis curriculum that he eventually developed and taught publicly, and sure he imparted that knowledge to a select few. My sincere thanks to you for your efforts in propagating the Filipino Martial Arts through your numerous projects and activities.   To all,   I’m off this week to spend Christmas in the Philippines. Maligayang Pasko!   Tim Waid Pekiti-Tirsia   --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 01:44:10 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] NO MONEY, NO HONEY Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Nung Jorge,   I;m one with Gar Puno Abon.  MONEY is the key word.  No MONEY, no HONEY.    Remember, fighters will need medical attention after the fight.  Who will pay for the hospitalization?   Consider the insurance, the prize money, the legalities if one kills an opponent by accident...   Reminds me of sme tournaments held here in Bacolod...   James U. Sy Jr. --- On Mon, 12/1/08, jorge penafiel wrote: From: jorge penafiel Subject: [Eskrima] PKT Challenge ! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 3:05 AM There you go - PKT has a Challenge! Specially for a lot of us who are Idiots who needs to be cleansed, studied stupid FMA that does not work, were fooled by our Instructors, are only money mongers, key board warriors and best of all had not come to the Philippines for test of strength a man of destiny. Jeepers,,,a lot of Testosterone here!! Guess I'll remained an idiot by simply having read this note showing lots of machoness and braggadocio. Thought we're here in ED to supposedly discussed FMA and not challenging each other and or resorting to harsh words or belittling other systems!!Enough fighting and challenges going around the world already! Jorge Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 00:30:29 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stealing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That info had been confirmed by some non-Doce Pares Eskrimadors I've met when I visited Cebu early this year.    James U. Sy Jr.   --- On Fri, 11/28/08, Ray wrote: From: Ray Subject: [Eskrima] Stealing To: "Eskrima-Digest" Date: Friday, November 28, 2008, 6:32 AM Stealing may be a strong word, but Cacoy has said several times that Leo lived one summer with Cacoy's top student and trained in Doce Pares. This was later integrated into his PT. Ray _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 membersEskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:04:54 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Stealing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tim my friend,   My reply to you…   Awards have no bearing on the fact that Gaje got bits and pieces of his art from different systems among them Doce Pares.    No award in the world can change that fact.    He may deny it or his students like you but Eskrimadors in the Philippines know the truth.   There’s no problem in adopting certain things as long as you acknowledge your source, just like what the other grandmasters did.   This was not the case for Gaje.  I have no intention of making you a convert.  There’s not much I can do if you continue putting the wool on your eyes.    How can a system be pure when it came from different sources, sources that were not properly acknowledged?    Getting such teaching position in the Philippines has more to do with political contacts more than anything.  It’s not necessarily the skill.    To prove my point, how many people have he killed?  Many Eskrimadors had their hands wet by their enemies’ blood.  But why are they not “recognized?”  Simply because they do not SELL their art.  It hurts but it’s the simple truth.       You can teach but it doesn’t mean you’re a good fighter. In the same manner, you may be a good fighter but may not be a good teacher.   Commenting that Doce Pares is sport is just like saying Pekiti Tirsia is also a sport.  Look at the way PTK is fought.  If those fights are done with bladed weapons would you think all those Americans and Europeans will still have arms?   A real fight doesn’t last as long as PTK sparring does.  You can correct me if I am mistaken.      Pekiti Tirsia is as sport as Doce Pares if that is your contention.  In today’s modern wafare, there’s minimal personal combat because of the availability more rounds of ammunition.  Let’s face it, bladed and empty hands are primarily used to instill strong spirit among the soldier.  It would be fatal to let them think ou can win a war with your bolo.  Anybody who claims to teach law enforcement would be aware of this basic truth.    I would not classify PTK as traditional.  All you have to do is look and see some Silat in it as well as others.  You wouldn’t realize this if you have oly studied PTK.    If you truly understand the blade you’ll realize the futility of disarming one but look at the things Gaje taught in the 1980s and you’ll see a lot of resemblance to what his uncle Jerson Tortal do.  Doesn’t this make you think deeper?   You’re questioning the foreign influences of Modern Arnis and Doce Pares but at least they are very honest about it.  They don’t claim that theirs is the mother Art coming from the goddess Kali from Kalibo, Kalinga Apayao, and whereever here is Kali.    Could you say the same for Gaje?  No matter how you defend your master, the Eskrimadors in the Philippines know him better than you do.   Yes, you’ve been here to Bacolod but you only trained under Leo Gaje.       Now PTK have always quesoned about the foreign ways of the other FMA systems.  But you PTK guys when questioned about the validity of the name Kali would just scamper away and would say, “why fuss over the name?” or “it’s not the name that you fight with.”  In the same manner, it’s not the uniform or the bowing that you fight with, right?  I’m sure you won’t answer no.     Prove once and for all with verifiable and legitimate proof that “Pekiti-Tirsia is a true, authentic Filipino Martial Art, passed to Grand Tuhon Gaje by his Grandfather Conrado Tortal,..”   Do you know Conrado Tortal?  I doubt you have even met the man.  In that case, how can you be so sure of such an assertion.  How can you, an American, know more than us Filipinos living here in the Philippines?    He had never said PTK was the best but he is implying it.  Why?  Because he is afraid of being challenged.  The news overseas is that Eskrimadors in the Philippines are afraid of Gaje but the real score is Gaje have not obliged to any of the challenges and “invitations” to him by the local Eskrimadors.   You PTK guys always talk of the Battle of the Grandmasters.  Know why the Eskrimadors did not join?  They wanted to fight Gaje with blades but Gaje won’t have any of that.      Your suggestion of “concentrating on propagating your own FMA based upon its’ own merits, rather than trying to ride on the real successes and Accomplishments of Pekiti-Tirsia” is well taken but just consider a post made by Kali Kapatid just a few days back of what Gaje wrote in his website RE: PTK Challenge.   QUOTE: The real test in the martial arts world should happen to anyone who claims that he is Master or GRandmaster more in the FMA. Those who claims that they are Masters and Instructors should come out and test their skill in an open challenge first in the Philippines because this is the place  of the true FMA culture. Pekiti-Tirsia is an open system that will welcome anyone who wants to test their skill.   Full contact stick fighting, full contact knife fighting,and others to be agreed by both fighters.No age limit, young or old is welcome.   FROM MASTERS WHO MANUFACTURED THEIR STYLE OR SYSTEM SHOULD JUSTIFY THEIR POSITION AS THE HEAD OF THEIR SYSTEM TO PROVE TO THE STUDENTS THAT THE SYSTEM WORKS. IF HE CANNOT PROVE THEN HE IS MONEY SYSTEM -A GRANDMASTER TO TAKE YOUR MONEY ON A THREE HOURS SEMINAR.THEN HE IS A LIAR AND THEFT NAMING HIS STYLE WHICH HE CANNOT PROVE. POOR STUDENTS ARE FOOLED BY THIS CLAIM MASTERS AND GRANDMASTERS. SO MY ADVICE IS IF YOU ARE FASHIONED TO BE A REAL MAN OF DESTINY AS WHAT YOUR DESIRE TO LOVE THE EDGED WEAPONRY THEN CHOSE TO BE ONE , BE A MAN OF STRENGTH TO RESIST THE STUPID STYLES THAT FOOLED YOU AND COMPENSATE YOUR LOSES IN FINDING SATISFACTION WHAT IS CORRECT AND WHAT IS REAL.   STUDENTS IN THE FMA HAD BEEN VICTIMS BY THE MASTERS PRETENDERS WHO ARE CLAIMANTS WHOSE METHODS ARE MANUFACTURED UNDER THE PRETEXT THAT IT IS A FAMILY SYSTEM ARE TAKEN ADVANTAGE YET THEY KNOW THAT THEY ARE LEARNING  A GARBAGE SYSTEM  STILL CONTINUE TO WASTE MONEY, EFFORTS AND TIME AND LATER IT WILL COST THEIR LIFE AGAINST A TRAIN WARRIOR.   iF YOU HAVE THE REALITY OF BEING A WARRIOR THEN YOUR INTELLIGENCE WILL TELL YOU THAT YOU CANNOT BE A PART OF THESE MASTERS WEB SITES AND STYLES THAT WILL NEVER WORK. THOSE WHO TALK IN THE FMA TALK ARE ONLY GOOD IN THE KEYBOARD. GET OUT FROM THE KEY BOARD AND TRY YOUR SKILL. http://pekiti-tirsia.typepad.com/pekititirsia_kali/2007/09/the-strength-of.ht ml         ~ ~ ~ Test of Skill in the Philippines will clean the idiots           The Pekiti-Tirsia kali System is conducting a test of skill on FEbruary 12, 2008 in the Philippines .It is not a tournament but a test of oneself how effective a style or  system all about FMA. Those who are talkers in the FMATALK is invited to be a man or woman to come out from  their talking tongue so they can satisfy themselves what comes out from  their mouth. If you cannot stand in the verbalization calisthenics you have no reason to be hiding under the curtain of woman's bedroom. Martial arts is not talking it is action and let the stick , blade , hands and feet speaks not your tongue.   Test of skill is no age limit , come and be man enough to prove your capabilities.   Location: Philippine Marines Training Ground                  Forth Bonifacio, Taguig , Metro manila   Date: FEbruary 12,2008 starts at 10:00 Am.   Register address to Mandala Rommel Tortal email: rommeltortal@yahoo.com   TEl No. 011 63 920 241 9320   You can ask the rules if you are at the registration door . Be sure you make your reservation. http://pekiti-tirsia.typepad.com/pekititirsia_kali/2007/09/test-of-skill-i.ht ml   As promised Gat Puno I dug these up! These are posted on the pt-go.com site for everybody, no discrimination - "Equal opportunity."   Waid my friend, I think there is an inconsistency somewhere, somehow?   And what was that about you saying that DP and MA as stick arts, sports, etc.?    But it’s good you have expressed yourself.  On my part, let me ask you the following:   What is Kali?   Is it really a historical Filipino name for FMA?   What makes you say so?   Hope to hear from you.   Red Gonzales --- On Sun, 11/30/08, Tim Waid wrote: From: Tim Waid Subject: [Eskrima] Stealing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, 30 November, 2008, 3:58 PM “Stealing may be a strong word, but Cacoy has said several times that Leo lived one summer with Cacoy's top student and trained in Doce Pares.  This was later integrated into his PT.”   This is nothing but the “if you can’t beat them, join them” tactic. Only they can’t join, so they claim “I trained him” or “he took/adopted/stole that technique/style/whatever from me or my style”   Anyone can make such a statement, but none can back it up with any empirical evidence. And in this case, there is simply no comparison or any semblance, beyond the commonalities of all FMA, between Pekiti-Tirsia and Doce Pares (or any other that make such claims). I can back this statement up because in my past training history I have trained and exchanged knowledge with several Doce Pares practitioners both in the US and Cebu, Dong Cuesta among others, and can quote GM Diony Canete from personal training and conversation.   First, let’s look at history and the facts. The Pekiti-Tirsia system of Tuhon Leo Gaje is known throughout the world as a combat Filipino Bladefighting system, with martial artists seeking him out to specifically learn the blade along with all other aspects of the system. No other Filipino martial artist has contributed more and is recognized more within professional law enforcement than GM Leo Gaje (this November 7th he was awarded the Edgar J. Hoover Award for lifetime Education and Training of US law Enforcement by the National Association of Chiefs of Police and the American Police Hall of Fame, the latest recognition among many others spanning the last 30+ years). With the Philippine National Police, while there are many local FMA instructors that teach within a municipality or area, no other FMA has been adopted as official doctrine and training by PNP Headquarters as Pekiti-Tirsia has. PTK conducts instructor cadre courses for Officers from every region in the country through the Directorate for Human Resource and Doctrine Development, at the PNP Academy, the PNP Public Safety College, and is the official combat system for the Special Action Force (SAF), among other specialized units of the PNP. In the Armed Forces of the Philippines (AFP), Pekiti-Tirsia has been the official close-quarters-combat system for the Philippine Marine Corps for the past decade, and now is being instituted as official doctrine for all AFP Special Operations Forces, as well as other combat arms units in the AFP. No one, or any other FMA system or style, has challenged these positions because they are based on the proven combat effectiveness of Pekiti-Tirsia.   In comparison, Doce Pares, either from the GM Cacoy or GM Diony lineage, is primarily a sport style as evidenced from their worldwide sport tournament promotions, and mainly a stick style. For example, GM Diony Canete personally told me they threw out all of the traditional footwork except for the reverse triangle and adopted boxing footwork. Pekiti-Tirsia has a complete traditional, and I might add, Filipino, footwork system absolutely essential for fighting with and against a blade. Boxing will not suffice. No one disputes the statement of GM Cacoy himself that Eskrido is a combination of Doce Pares and Judo and Aikido. Pekiti-Tirsia trapping, locking and throwing tactics and techniques come from a close quarters tapping method and a blade disarming method, and we don’t grab the weapon (unless we know it is an impact weapon) as is common in Doce Pares. If you want to look at training methods, an advanced Pekiti-Tirsia practitioner never stands in one place and feeds attacks, conveniently stopping them mid-strike, while the defender takes a position that even if he would hit the weapon hand they would still be hit by the opponents weapon, and then goes on to strike 3, 4, or more times. This is the method of Doce Pares, and many other FMA as well. Pekiti-Tirsia is always dynamic, as is combat itself, with precise striking and footwork maneuvering that works against full power strikes and attacks. And yes, if the combat starts at close-quarters, we still attack and quarter the opponent(s). Personally, I have greater respect for the “Old Style” Doce Pares or the San Miguel of GM Momoy Canete.   Maybe the pseudo-nationalists such as Mr. Red Gonzales should direct his energy to justifying why Doce Pares and Modern Arnis, among others, use Japanese dress, belts, and salutations within their Philippine Martial Arts. Imagine bowing, the fiercely hated act that was forced upon Filipinos by the Japanese oppressors and occupiers during WWII, being adopted as formal protocol for many FMA. Sad but true.   Pekiti-Tirsia is a true, authentic Filipino Martial Art, passed to Grand Tuhon Gaje by his Grandfather Conrado Tortal, and one that is evidence of the Filipino genius in formulating edged, impact, and empty-hands weapon systems. Grand Tuhon Gaje has never said Pekiti-Tirsia is the best FMA and neither do I. I will however entertain anyone if they want to discuss or actually see what the Pekiti-Tirsia system is anytime.   I suggest concentrating on propagating your own FMA based upon its’ own merits, rather than trying to ride on the real successes and accomplishments of Pekiti-Tirsia.   Tim Waid Pekiti-Tirsiawww.pt-go.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Get your preferred Email name! Now you can @ymail.com and @rocketmail.com. http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Stealing Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 07:38:09 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Leo was born ~1938, yes? Not sure the below statement could be true then. Maybe one decade of mastery skill, not three. That said, I'm only pointing out who Leo possibly studied with thru the years. Thus my prior comment that "Stealing" may be a strong word. Ray On Nov 30, 2008, at 9:45 PM, Tim Waid wrote: > GM Gaje had more than three decades of mastery skill by the > 70’s, ... --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 08:46:30 -0800 (PST) From: Eugenio Agustin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Why Pot Money required for an Open Challenge in the Philippines if ever? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Why seizable POT Money for no name Eskrimadores back home in the Philippines? First: Lots of Eskrimadores in Philippines are getting hard upped everyday unlike the grand life being enjoyed by some of the succesful ones who have the privilege of raking in sums of Dollars and a sizable fortune through FMA Propagation and Marketing in the Western World Second: Lots of well meaning innocent Eskrimadores feel cheated when they freely and openly showed off their wares, got videod, got photographed, issued certificates, in the guise of documentary studies for western countries with a promise that they be shown to western audience and marketed as FMA Tourism tool in bringing in U$ market money back to the Philippines for the impoverished old Granmaestros ending up their techniques stolen, copied, repackaged leaving them impoverished while the bright Grand Marketer raking in all the glory... the fame... the money... leaving behind the poor ol man ... the well spring of everything... waiting in the air not even given any due acknowledgement and even a small drop of the wealth enjoyed by some of the famous... talented... imaginative... FMA marketers the Great Great Grand Tuhons, Great Great Grand Masters, Great Great Grand Guros all sorts of transcendental titles coming up with all kinds of marketing gimmicks like fantastic lineage histories fantastic experiences stories, fantastic claims, everything unimaginable propaganda are being launched just to capture the most coveted dollar and euro pockets... WOW Dollars and Euros... no longer WOW Philippines! Third: This is one of the rare opportunities the homegrown Eskrimadores can possibly partake of the wealth their world famous FMA compadres have raked in from their seminars, schools, etceteras around the world. Fourth: To have funds in case the challenger gets incapacitated, hospitalized, etcetera Fifth: This is the opportune time for the anonymous homegrown Eskrimadores to be catapulted to the world market should he/she be able to displace the lofty position, fame and riches enjoyed by the Great Great FMA Tuhons... Guros, Datus, etcetera roaming the world posing to be invincible :-) Sixth: If you believe what you have is great and precious you must put value to it not only in words and deeds but also in Dollar/Euro Monetary Value Seventh: The Homegrown Eskrimadores of Panay and Negros have learned their lessons in the past decades and it is time to convert it to cash in this difficult times :-D Bow, "Gene" --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest