Date: Tue, 02 Dec 2008 16:41:07 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #307 - 12 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Mike Hanopol on Challenge Matches... (Bill Debuque) 2. Re: gaje and validity of claims, and ernesto presas qiapo school (maurice gatdula) 3. re:Why Pot Money required for an Open Challenge in the Philippines if ever? (Bo Kaner) 4. PEKITI-TIRSIA BASIC FOOTWORK DVD (william mcgrath) 5. Re: re:Why Pot Money required -- kali & marketing (jay de leon) 6. MA means to me. (Eternal IV) 7. Re: re: Gaje (Red Gonzales) 8. Bruce Lee playing table tennis (Julian Gilmour) 9. Re: Gaje PKT Kali (Eugenio Agustin) 10. Re: Mike Hanopol on Challenge Matches... (Red Gonzales) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 16:40:49 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] Mike Hanopol on Challenge Matches... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I'm not really sure whether the Pinoy Rock icon, Mike Hanopol (who, as I understand it, is not a native Ilonggo but grew up in Iloilo), was an FMA practitioner but in his song "Tulungan Natin", he has written a few lines which may be applicable to this concept of "Filipino Challenge Matches":   "Ako's umiiwas sa away at gulo.   Maraming maiinit at mahilig sa basag-ulo. Bakit kailangan pang manakit ng kapuwa? Kailangan pa ba tayong maging siga?...   Iwasan na natin ang mga ilusyon. Igalang na natin na tayo'y isang Nasyon. Kahit hindi tayo magkakilala, Tayo'y magkakapatid at magkakasama...."   --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 15:47:30 -0800 (PST) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Cc: the kuntawman Subject: [Eskrima] Re: gaje and validity of claims, and ernesto presas qiapo school Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net this is been a very interesting read for me, because i have a connections to pekiti tirsia that i almost never talk about for my own reasons, but regardless is see: --the fault of the "KALI" name falls from dan inosanto, to leo gaje and his crew. and "his crew" includes all of the ex-leo gaje students (some has his approval most do not) and followers (many of these "followers were not students at all but admire and copies him). but it also falls on the teachers who takes part in the use and advertising of KALI--which includes me (when your broke you do what you gotta do)--and push this myth as being true.   --it is interesting how people will stick by their teachers and the teachers stories even if the story turns out that its not true, any filipino will tell you the old men like to put steriods in their stories and the older they get and the older the story gets, the more different it gets. hey i have to catch myself too, my memory fell out with my hair. but this is not something to get upset about, its part of our culture. for some people its a "LIE", but i recognize it is a fishing shorty, you know each year, you tell the story, the fish that got away becomes bigger and bigger until 20 years ago, i remember when i almost caught that whale.  but it IS the job of the students to stick to the teachers story, to keep this tradition alive, and you know, so what if lapu lapu wasnt his great great great grandfather? anyone ever read about the chinese kung fu masters who can leap into trees and smash rocks in his hands? beat 12 people at one time? this is stories of admiration, like the one where george washingtong chopped down the cherry tree or something. many of us will make them up too when we get old. but the big problem is this:  i study with a master, and learn his stuff. not in some sissy 3 hours seminar, but 6 months living and sleeping on his living room floor training every day. 30 years later i am teaching his art and certify people in three days, but no mention of him or his style. this, is the worse kind of lie, storytelling etc.   --how many filipinos read gaje's crazy stories and explanations of where his art comes from. or to see his disrespect of his uncle and denied that he knows how to fight. or received the letter (this was in 96 or 95) that greg alland was never a black belter under me. how many of us thought, this is wrong, and call this racial pride or prejudice, let it go, because this guy is my kababayan and we should not criticise too loud he is my fellow countryman. but wrong is wrong, and its good to see people are opening our eyes. one time i argued with a "KALI" guy at a tournament about the word, and he says, but my certificate is signed by a filipino! wow. thats true, our own did it to us. but...   --we stick to people when we respect their skills, even if the man is not somebody we admire, only i admire his skill. so look at people when they quote bruce lee like his words are bible verses. if you strip away his skill and his movies, bruce lee never achieved the black belt in nothing. he did not go and beat other martial arts fighters to proved his style. his students didnt go and prove how valid is the style. you can get certified in his art and never train 30 days in a row in any month to get it. how many people in his style punch like a woman. but you respect it because the man himself, was a badass. and we admired him. let a chubby white man create his own style the same way you will not respect it the same way, and the style he made might even be a better fighting system than bruce lees jkd. respect in the martial arts is funny. its the only place you can be respected and called and expert, and never proved yourself doing what you say your specialty is supposed to be....do people really TEST for 10th degree black belt? has anyone really seen jet li fight? is there anybody around, who get into a fight with ed parker? or stephen hayes? or paul vunak? the reason FMA is the way we have it today, is because our old men, said to another old man, i dont think that worked on me, when they were young. one old man went to another and said my style is better than yours, and no matter who won or who lost, they both kept respect and they both improved. SO...   --when gaje says tortal sucked. and tortal says i use to whip your behind when you were little, this is the filipino way. call it sport call it whatever, people dont put up there sign unless they willing to back themself up, somebody is going to call you up it keeps us on our toes. my opinion is, i dont believe we have enough of this today, because too many people are too fast to advertise WE TEACH FMA. i think a lot of things about Gaje, but disrespect is not one of them. gaje is saying, i am better than all of you guys, and F you, you dont like it come make me shut up. say what you want about him, but you have to respect that. this kind of rivalry, and i say it all the time, is good for the FMA.   okay, i have to go, so i will post more thoughts later.   --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 18:18:15 -0800 (PST) From: Bo Kaner To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] re:Why Pot Money required for an Open Challenge in the Philippines if ever? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Well said and true, Mr. Eugenio Agustin. You have hit the nail right on its spot. Your second point brings back memories of what was promised to our local arnisadores/escrimadores/bastoneros here in Negros Occidental. The promises of the Grand Tuhons who are big marketers in the US to the local arnisadores/bastoneros/escrimadores remained today as promises. Most of them were fooled by these local Grand Tuhons who made it big in the US. They even come to a point that they came back here bringing with them foreigners and tried to get videos showing the locals performing and calling them as "Kaliman". What a shame, trying to ram into our throat the name kali. Take for example the video Kali means to scrape. A narrator known to the locals as Mr. Jefrey Montelibano calling Mr. Jose Aguilar as a Kaliman. Mr. Jose Aguilar is an Oido de caburata Arnis man. I bet mr. montelibano would not call our local arnis man as kaliman if not being offered by money considerations either by those successful filipino marketers in the US or some foreigners. Thanks for the enlightenment mr Eugenio Agustin. May your kind multiply in the future. Bo --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:53:29 -0800 (PST) From: william mcgrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] PEKITI-TIRSIA BASIC FOOTWORK DVD Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net PEKITI-TIRSIA BASIC FOOTWORK DVD   I¢ve just added a new DVD to the PTI website store. The Basic Footwork DVD shows the first seven footwork patterns that are the foundation of Pekiti-Tirsia techniques. Also included with this DVD is my new novel Eretzel- book two in my fantasy series The Sword of Fire. Visit the Pekiti-Tirsia International store page for more info: http://www.pekiti.com/store/store.php?crn=44   Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath Chief Instructor Pekiti-Tirsia International www.PEKITI.COM   www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com http://www.youtube.com/user/TuhonBillMcg --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Mon, 1 Dec 2008 21:59:02 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re:Why Pot Money required -- kali & marketing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net from challenges, we have segued into US marketers and to the kali issue again.  Which is not bad, as long as we keep our perspective on these individual issues.   (1)  on the kali issue, if let's say mr. jose aguilar was the current GM of Oido de Caburata arnis, and he started a school here in the US and called his style Oido de Caburata Kali, nobody here in the US would raise a fuss and probably think nothing of it.   Kali is a recognized and accepted name for FMA here in the US.  As my kapatid Abon said, live with it.   >From my point of view, let's say mr. jose aguilar went even further and decided to officially change the name of his system in the Phil. as Oido de Kaburata Kali. I personally would have no problem with that as long as he does not start claiming it was really kali since the time of LimaHong, and it descended from the mother style of kali.   (2)  some people have been posting here as if "US marketeer" was a dirty word.   Let us start with the basics.  if you are teaching/ propagating FMA here in the US as a hobby or as a passion, with no thought of financial gain, god bless your heart and may your tribe increase.   if you are doing this for a living, may the martial arts gods be with you.  you have to treat it like a business, and you have to do what it takes to build and grow a business, and a big part of this is called MARKETING.    you may be the baddest arnisador with 72 confirmed kills notched in your pinuti, but if you are clueless in marketing, your dojo or business will not last probably 3 months.   Marketing means websites, flyers, sponsoring seminars, videos, promotion with the media, automated phone response systems, advertisements, school clubs, pictures, yearbooks, and gear, etc. you want to know the etc., you will have to hire me as a marketing consultant.   Marketing does not include anything illegal,or unethical, or underhanded.   for those that think that the martial arts (traditional, FMA or MMA or whatever) streets here are paved with gold, business here in the US is tough shit.  A big MMA organization just recently went bankrupt, with millions of dollars in the hole.    Talk to my kapatid Abon Baet.  that is why we still have our day jobs, lol.  or Maurice Gatdula. or Mat Marinas.  or Rey Galang.   you want that big pot money you salivating for, think marketing.  you have any solid ideas, email me privately.   again, just my dalawang centimo worth.   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Bo Kaner wrote: From: Bo Kaner Subject: [Eskrima] re:Why Pot Money required for an Open Challenge in the Philippines if ever? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, December 1, 2008, 6:18 PM Well said and true, Mr. Eugenio Agustin. You have hit the nail right on its spot. Your second point brings back memories of what was promised to our local arnisadores/escrimadores/bastoneros here in Negros Occidental. The promises of the Grand Tuhons who are big marketers in the US to the local arnisadores/bastoneros/escrimadores remained today as promises. Most of them were fooled by these local Grand Tuhons who made it big in the US. They even come to a point that they came back here bringing with them foreigners and tried to get videos showing the locals performing and calling them as "Kaliman". What a shame, trying to ram into our throat the name kali. Take for example the video Kali means to scrape. A narrator known to the locals as Mr. Jefrey Montelibano calling Mr. Jose Aguilar as a Kaliman. Mr. Jose Aguilar is an Oido de caburata Arnis man. I bet mr. montelibano would not call our local arnis man as kaliman if not being offered by money considerations either by those successful filipino marketers in the US or some foreigners. Thanks for the enlightenment mr Eugenio Agustin. May your kind multiply in the future. Bo _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Eternal IV To: Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 06:37:30 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] MA means to me. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all, At the school I train at, they have introduced a new requirement for Black Belt. You must write up a response to the following question: "What Martial Arts mean to me?" They are to fit onto a letter (A4) page. They are then framed and hung on the wall. It is interesting reading all the people's responses, and to see the different backgrounds, reasons and meanings that Martial arts has to people. I am wondering of the people on 'the list', what does Martial Arts mean to you? respectfully, Scott _________________________________________________________________ Messenger's gift to you! Download free emoticons today! http://livelife.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669758 --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 18:47:47 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] re: Gaje To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Bo my friend,   No use in giving the Kali guys the evidences.  They won't listen anyway.  You just inform those who wants the truth.  The truth and its manifestations are not for those who are blinded by faith.   The suggestion for a pot money is a very interesting point and profitable at that.    Red --- On Mon, 12/1/08, Bo Kaner wrote: From: Bo Kaner Subject: [Eskrima] re: Gaje To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, 1 December, 2008, 8:19 PM To those who idlolize Leo Gaje, Kindly ask him this, that before he went to the United States where did he trained in Bacolod city and who gave him his certificate as an Arnis practitioner? Not Kali. Why did he not acknoowledge the old man who gave him the certificate up to now? Maybe Mr. Red Gonzales can enlighten us on this. Bo _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Have a new Yahoo! Mail account? Kick start your journey by importing all your contacts! http://www.trueswitch.com/yahoo-ph --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 12:41:05 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Bruce Lee playing table tennis Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Check this out: http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9QHslHpK4-Q Not FMA, but good fun. Strike from the void Julian _________________________________________________________________ Get a bird’s eye view of the world with Multimap http://clk.atdmt.com/GBL/go/115454059/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 00:19:35 -0800 (PST) From: Eugenio Agustin To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Gaje PKT Kali Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Bo, If that is also the plight of the old eskrimadores/arnisadores in Negros then Bacolod City would be the best venue for any open public challenge of destiny by our kalista friends particularly the venerable Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje of PKT of which my computation for the "Pot Money" based on the minimum wage in Region VI covering Negros Occidental and the Island of Panay in peso value would be so low and an insult to the stature and greatness of the world famous Venerable Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje which should be based on the U$ rate of say U$6,000/mo X 12 months = U$72,000 or say rounding off to at least U$80,000 only. With his worlwide network of followings, with his consumate skill and guts he has nothing to lose but everything to gain if he will put up this "Pot Money" to WHOEVER will take up the challenge and defeat him in his call for a Challenge of Destiny right in his turf of Negros Occidental Phillipines. Why? He will be making his indelible mark in the history of Filipino Martial Arts tradition and Martial Arts World History as a whole. This is also the golden opportunity for the locals/homegrown eskrimadores/arnisadores who feel cooned and or left out to prove their mettle in the most gentleman and dignified way as in the grand old days where bouts were sponsored by the ultra rich amos- Hacienderos of Negros Island. This time the landed Hacienderos' money is no longer necessary considering the great life, fame and riches being enjoyed by some of the FMA greats abroad like the Venerable Grand Tuhon Leo Gaje. Bow, "Gene" --__--__-- Message: 10 Date: Tue, 2 Dec 2008 18:43:30 +0800 (SGT) From: Red Gonzales Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Mike Hanopol on Challenge Matches... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Billy my friend,   PTK doesn't seem to share your idea of peace.  We are all idiots who are bastardized versions of the purity of the ancient art of Kali.    I guess if a huge, and I mean huge pot money can be forwarded, many will be more than willing to go risk body, limb, and all.  Life's hard in the Philippines, you know.    Maybe the Kali and Arnis guys will finally come together, at least at the expense of at least somebody from either or both sides.  I'm sure there would be alot of bettings.  It's interesting to see the showdown of the heads of Arnis and, Escrima, and Kali.    With whom will you bet?   We can help spread the news as early as now.  What do you say Bill?   --- On Tue, 12/2/08, Bill Debuque wrote: From: Bill Debuque Subject: [Eskrima] Mike Hanopol on Challenge Matches... To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, 2 December, 2008, 8:40 AM I'm not really sure whether the Pinoy Rock icon, Mike Hanopol (who, as I understand it, is not a native Ilonggo but grew up in Iloilo), was an FMA practitioner but in his song "Tulungan Natin", he has written a few lines which may be applicable to this concept of "Filipino Challenge Matches":   "Ako's umiiwas sa away at gulo.   Maraming maiinit at mahilig sa basag-ulo. Bakit kailangan pang manakit ng kapuwa? Kailangan pa ba tayong maging siga?...   Iwasan na natin ang mga ilusyon. Igalang na natin na tayo'y isang Nasyon. Kahit hindi tayo magkakilala, Tayo'y magkakapatid at magkakasama...."   _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net How many ways can you cook Adobo? Find out all of them on Yahoo! Answers --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest