Date: Sat, 06 Dec 2008 00:45:07 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 15 #312 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2600 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Challenge?? (GatPuno@aol.com) 2. Re: POT MONEY (Daniel Arola) 3. greetings (Tarn Shadowhawk) 4. thanks (Tarn Shadowhawk) 5. Master Advincula and tournament (Tarn Shadowhawk) 6. Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA (maurice gatdula) 7. Re: Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA (iPat) 8. Re: Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA (jay de leon) 9. Re: Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA (Daniel Arola) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: GatPuno@aol.com Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:16:00 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Challenge?? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net John, thank you for replying this post directed to my attention. > From: Kali Kapatid - J Montes > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Subject: [Eskrima] Re: PTK Challenge matches > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Greetings Gat Puno, > > The letters I forwarded here are from a public blog posted on the internet > by > Grand Tuhon for the world to see. I have been to some sights where you have > to > have a password and/or be a member of their group to have access and what > have > you. Be that as it may, I would say that it seems apparent to me that GT > Gaje > comes off as a bit "hostile" in these blogs, and with very good reason. All > I > can say is that I'm sure there is a bit of a reactionary type of statement > being made there. So anyone reading this who is unacquainted should know > that > Grand Tuhon is a funny guy, very warm and personable, always when I meet him > he's joking and teaching. > GP: John, I found him very funny & personable too, but also thisis the first tiime we only met, and he called me "The King Pin" of Florida already. Meaning he has the same charming personality like Prof. Remy Presas, he does this to make you feel comfortable. I odnt know what he is really in his mind, but to what I see and witness he is what I thought he is. Good business man, got a good marketing skills. > So alot of things he says are tongue-in-cheek. As > far as the challenge goes, from my experience a good percentage of > respectable > FMA groups worth their merit are always ready and are expected to stand up > to > a challenge, as long as both fighters are equally matched. > GP: As long as what? both fighter is equally matched? Wow, Challeges in not come with weight, skill nor with weapon on eapty hand, the way I read the challenge is not in this criteria. If I do Challenge someone,Idont need to see how big or tall he is, or how many years his training, this is un-heard to the way I was used to. > This is the mindset > of PTK also. I think many of you > have good points to make, but remember that (speaking for myself)  I react > when our Supreme Grand Masters' name appears in the smog of online "light" > conversation. Who would expect less? In my heart of hearts, I would always > defend and can't understand why others insist on inserting him negatively > into > their conversations. Moreover, if anyone has an issue with him, he's in the > states yearly. There's always a way to reach him. Give him a call, you may > be > surprised to find a very approachable amiable person. > No I have no Issue with him nor his organization(PKT), it just not my business what he does to his business, but if he is Challenging the other FMA'tist in public forum, meaning he selling a good fish, but somehow that fish that he is selling is rotten fish we can smell it from way far far, no one will buy it. First if he is serious about that, what he's basis, somehow I got the feeling someone pist him off, and I believed he has to directed his Challenge to that group or person, not to the Public. It's just not cool, if you consider him as Supreme Grandmaster and he crying outloud for someone to fight him, isn'tit? Nice try it's a typical Filipino Asong bahay "House Dog" hes bark is louder than it seems, but in order for that dog to bite, you have to get near by him first, he would never run after you then bites get it?. > > Season's Greetings, > > ~John > > PS- Any good challenge match with a money pot sounds so awesome in these > times! Who ISN'T broke??? > > John, The reason why I asked you to post this , I cant believed he did such a thing, it's okay to Challenge one GM or other Eskimradores, but do it in more personal way go and talk to the man himself and toward the person you want o fight with, its just cant beleived he really put that Challenge in Public Forum, as you telling us it is. But its sound double meaning, Go to the Philippines and test your skill, who do you think on the list that not a member of PKT will go to the Philippines and face off PTK? I have a big doubt someone wouldaccept such a term, unless is aSeminar Training Boot Camp, like what he is talking about tome that will take place by Feb. 2009, and he personally invited meto attend. Yes I will be waiting for him to come back here in Florida and I promised to see him and ask this such Challenge of him to the FMA in public forum. I have a feeling that we are just going to laught at this issue. Well, be well, Thank you again, Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Group International Laguna Arnis Federation International US Harimaw Buno Federation Hilot Research Center USA Tel. 954-432-4433 www.garimot.com ************** Make your life easier with all your friends, email, and favorite sites in one place. Try it now. (http://www.aol.com/?optin=new-dp& icid=aolcom40vanity&ncid=emlcntaolcom00000010) --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 18:30:36 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] POT MONEY To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Haha Gordon! Me and Eddie Bravo share that same interest. --- On Wed, 12/3/08, Gordon Walker wrote: From: Gordon Walker Subject: [Eskrima] POT MONEY To: Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, December 3, 2008, 8:28 PM Hi, thirteen years after quitting and now I have to find 'pot' money again. I got twenty, too. gord --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:23:01 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] greetings Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Brother, I hope I get to meet you one day and shake your hand. Charles Adams Adams Martial Arts Shadowhawk Blades --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:26:33 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] thanks Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the info Tyler. I never had a problem without it but I am glad you posted it for others. That may answer a few questions about responses or lack thereof and I will immediately look into it. Charles Adams --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 20:17:08 -0800 (PST) From: Tarn Shadowhawk To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Master Advincula and tournament Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I actually don't know if I responded yet or not but I will now. Master Advincula is still alive and teaching his black belts over the U.S. He is going to be here in Texas in February if I remember correctly having been brought from California by his student and my teacher Linde Belt. He still teaches escrima, Hindi Andi Kungfu, and Isshinryu karate. And nearing 70 if I recall right, he is still one tough customer.       As far as the other instructors attending the tournament, There is Master Delacruz teaching koryo gumdo, the samurang style of sword from korea, David Ruff teaching traditional longbow instinctive archery, myself teaching Advincula's combat escrima, and another coming on board but not confirmed yet teaching Irish stick fighting. I will give his name as soon as he sends in his information and regisration. It is not necessary to have master rank but be of middle to high black belt with the necessary experience teaching to be part of the seminar. I have personal experience of David Ruff as he is the only archer I know whom I will allow to shoot arrows at me so I can catch them. And I will demonstrate that at the tournament also. There will also time permitting be cutting demonstrations. If you have any other questions let me know. Charles Adams Adams Martial Arts Shadowhawk Blades --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 21:47:35 -0800 (PST) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   what i am talking about here, is the articles that use to get publish, by jkd/kali people, including mr. inosanto, that says clear things about FMA, that are untrue. i saved one for many years, by paul vunak, that said "is your FMA authentic?", these are the things that authentic FMA MUST have:   * dumug * pananandyakman * three ranges *espada y daga blah blah blah   there also are many articles that FMA start with the stick ends with the hands, etc., or KALI has 12 weapons, etc. and many other things, and they dont all say this information comes from master so and so. it does not matter if they came from this person or that person, the story still being taught by mr inosanto. the result i believe, is that leo gaje takes this information and pops out of the philippines and says, hey! you know that stuff dan inosanto is talking about that no one can find it in the philippines? i have it! and nobody else does! i think this thing grown into something completely different. because yes, mr inosanto was teaching what he was taught, to bring people to FMA. in my opinion, leo gaje does it, to say, i got the real shit. nothing wrong with that either, but dont get mad when people say, back it up.   so we dont hold it against him, its old news that he didnt know. but are we supposed to never mention this? is it so insulting to talk about it? today the incorrect information is being promoted by someone else, so that is the topic of our conversation now.   back to the point of my post, it is healthy in the FMA for people to have different opinions and ideas about the art. it forces you to defend what you do, and it forces us to think about if we are right, and best of all, it forces the martial artist to keep his skills good, which lifts up all philippine martial arts.     "my art is the TRUE art of the filipino and the rest of you guys are nothing (or less authentic) -- which is something my brother dan inosantos people use to say and think" Please correct me if I am wrong, but this seems a reference to Inosanto people (e.g. me) using the term Kali.  The syllogism seems to be that some people use Kali as being "the true Art" etc and Guro Inosanto and his people typically use the term Kali that therefore Inosanto people must have the same thought process as others who use the term. I think a moment's reflection will reveal this to be the non-sequitor that it is. I think if you go back to what was actually said by Guro Inosanto was that "Guro XYZ told me".  In other words he was simply quoting one of his teachers without taking a position himself. Leaving it to others to speak for themselves, I submit the proposition that the Dog Brothers and Dog Brothers Martial Arts, have never identified the fighters or systems involved in our fights, nor talked smack about anyone. This should be no surprise-- it is what I have ALWAYS seen Guro Inosanto, with whom I now have some 26 years, represent in word and deed. I'm thinking this will be my last word in this conversation. The Adventure continues, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 18:53:16 +0000 From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Fri, Dec 5, 2008 at 5:47 AM, maurice gatdula wrote: > > what i am talking about here, is the articles that use to get publish, by > jkd/kali people, including mr. inosanto, that says clear things about FMA, > that are untrue. This is where i cant stay silent over something that has little real value to me until someone questions the integrity of my instructor. What has he said in what article that has in your opinion been untrue? i saved one for many years, by paul vunak, that said "is your > FMA authentic?", these are the things that authentic FMA MUST have: > > * dumug > * pananandyakman > * three ranges > *espada y daga > blah blah blah> > there also are many articles that FMA start with the stick ends with the > hands, etc., or KALI has 12 weapons, etc. and many other things, and they dont > all say this information comes from master so and so. it does not matter if > they came from this person or that person, the story still being taught by mr > inosanto. What knowing what the main thrust of the article was, its hard to comment on the Vunak example, but i would agree that there are systems in the FMA that have only one area and i, as well as others, have heard with my own ears Guro Dan Inosanto refer to fighters and head of their tribal art who only ever used minimal techniques. But since you made this point in a paragraph where you suggest that 'mr inosanto' fueled an untruth it demonstrates to me a blindness in your argument that is based on false assumptions. The Inosanto blend system does refer to 12 distinct categories of weapons which would seem you didn't quite understand what was said and if you were to train with Guro inosanto, read his books or articles you will find that he always puts the references in where possible and seldom takes the credit himself. In this case it is LaCoste. So now you have unwittingly accused Grandmaster Lacoste as a liar as well! I am sure this isn't your intention but can you see how might others read it and propagate it? lets not forget who else Guro inosanto trained with. Through his parents he was introduced and trained with Regino Illustrimo, Grandmaster Lacoste, Angel Cabales, Tedaro Ramos, Grandmaster Leo Giron and Master Gilbert Tenio. This illustrious heritage was just the beginning and i have witnessed him hosting FMA artists at his school to further his and his students learning. But you dont train with him do you? you dont know and so your prejudice is fueled by other motivations. thats for you to deal with and none of my business until you bring it publicly to the forum. the result i believe, is that leo gaje takes this information and > pops out of the philippines and says, hey! you know that stuff dan inosanto is > talking about that no one can find it in the philippines? i have it! and > nobody else does! i think this thing grown into something completely > different. because yes, mr inosanto was teaching what he was taught, to bring > people to FMA. in my opinion, leo gaje does it, to say, i got the real shit. > nothing wrong with that either, but dont get mad when people say, back it up. > > so we dont hold it against him, its old news that he didnt know. but are we > supposed to never mention this? is it so insulting to talk about it? today the > incorrect information is being promoted by someone else, so that is the topic > of our conversation now. It may not occur to you that while you almost annually bring this up that Guro inosanto has answered it and really doesn't need to keep running to every question to answer to satisfy other people ego. He's too busy researching and creating, not myths but moving his own art forward, not decaying in the past as historic nicety. the arts have to adapt to the age and that is where his time goes and i for one small student am in awe of him. His answer is in his art which is constantly changing. > > back to the point of my post, it is healthy in the FMA for people to have > different opinions and ideas about the art. it forces you to defend what you > do, and it forces us to think about if we are right, and best of all, it > forces the martial artist to keep his skills good, which lifts up all > philippine martial arts. > That we agree on this is undisputed, but where you place value on being on this forum demanding answers isn't the same value that others will have. If I or anyone else were to spend ten minutes a day responding to posts with which there are many motivations behind the questioner then we'd be stuck in the past. I don't have your answers other than what i have said before and im not going to repeat them to suit anyone else. life s too short and the wealth of the arts is too big to waste time. What i will do though is to promote the FMA in good faith, always learning. This digest has been a great source of information but has hit a low recently with so much disrespect i have wondered whether to stay as others i know have gone or just dont post. I stay because i feel that it will come out of it soon. Best regards, -- Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group www.amag.org.uk http://patsfightagainsttcancer.blogspot.com/ Rehome a Boxer: www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk a mind that is entrenched in the authority of knowledge cannot possibly learn --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 11:55:06 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net another dalawang centimo worth.   i have been an inosanto kali or inosanto blend practitioner since the 70's (among other styles).   because of my Tipunan and IMAFP connections, i have seen many of the "baddest" living eskrimadors around--topher ricketts of bakbakan, felix valencia of Lameco, abon baet of garimot arnis, my IMAFP brethren in the Philippines, yuli romo, the Dog Brothers, jason inay, bobby taboada, and many more.   I have banged sticks with first generation Inosanto practitioners, and imho, they can more than hold their own with anybody.   through the years I have heard so much criticism of dan inosanto--he has never been to the Phil., his style is nothing but hundreds of drills, he started this whole kali shit, he is just famous because of the bruce lee connection, ad nauseam.   train with the man.  know the man.  bang sticks with him or even some "pure" inosanto practitioner.    for me, with all this empirical evidence, (like your head being handed to you), all these other matters become extraneous.   and pat is right.  life is too short to bother with extraneous matters.    jay de leon www.imafp.com     --- On Fri, 12/5/08, iPat wrote: From: iPat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, December 5, 2008, 10:53 AM But you dont train with him do you? you dont know and so your prejudice is fueled by other motivations. thats for you to deal with and none of my business until you bring it publicly to the forum. -- Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group www.amag.org.uk http://patsfightagainsttcancer.blogspot.com/ Rehome a Boxer: www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk a mind that is entrenched in the authority of knowledge cannot possibly learn _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 13:58:11 -0800 (PST) From: Daniel Arola Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net What would you say about martial art evolving in order to exist with the times and that things in the art itself would have to "change" or modify and adapt accordingly with the circumstances of the time and places of modern times?  It would mean that alot of the "traditional" training methods from way back in the day would likely be replaced by more efficient ones that prove to work better for the body. With that said, would it cease to be "AUTHENTIC"? The word "history" sure can get pretty confusing for alot of us. Especially in FMA. I think things would be more clear if it is seen that individuals would talk FMA history to be meant as "HIS(or hers) story". Can you Dig it? -Daniel Arola DAMAG-INC [Daniel Arola Martial Arts Group Inc.] http://www.damag-inc.zoomshare.com Houston, Texas   --- On Thu, 12/4/08, maurice gatdula wrote: From: maurice gatdula Subject: [Eskrima] Re: inosanto people and authenticness of FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, December 4, 2008, 11:47 PM   what i am talking about here, is the articles that use to get publish, by jkd/kali people, including mr. inosanto, that says clear things about FMA, that are untrue. i saved one for many years, by paul vunak, that said "is your FMA authentic?", these are the things that authentic FMA MUST have:   * dumug * pananandyakman * three ranges *espada y daga blah blah blah   there also are many articles that FMA start with the stick ends with the hands, etc., or KALI has 12 weapons, etc. and many other things, and they dont all say this information comes from master so and so. it does not matter if they came from this person or that person, the story still being taught by mr inosanto. the result i believe, is that leo gaje takes this information and pops out of the philippines and says, hey! you know that stuff dan inosanto is talking about that no one can find it in the philippines? i have it! and nobody else does! i think this thing grown into something completely different. because yes, mr inosanto was teaching what he was taught, to bring people to FMA. in my opinion, leo gaje does it, to say, i got the real shit. nothing wrong with that either, but dont get mad when people say, back it up.   so we dont hold it against him, its old news that he didnt know. but are we supposed to never mention this? is it so insulting to talk about it? today the incorrect information is being promoted by someone else, so that is the topic of our conversation now.   back to the point of my post, it is healthy in the FMA for people to have different opinions and ideas about the art. it forces you to defend what you do, and it forces us to think about if we are right, and best of all, it forces the martial artist to keep his skills good, which lifts up all philippine martial arts.     "my art is the TRUE art of the filipino and the rest of you guys are nothing (or less authentic) -- which is something my brother dan inosantos people use to say and think" Please correct me if I am wrong, but this seems a reference to Inosanto people (e.g. me) using the term Kali.  The syllogism seems to be that some people use Kali as being "the true Art" etc and Guro Inosanto and his people typically use the term Kali that therefore Inosanto people must have the same thought process as others who use the term. I think a moment's reflection will reveal this to be the non-sequitor that it is. I think if you go back to what was actually said by Guro Inosanto was that "Guro XYZ told me".  In other words he was simply quoting one of his teachers without taking a position himself. Leaving it to others to speak for themselves, I submit the proposition that the Dog Brothers and Dog Brothers Martial Arts, have never identified the fighters or systems involved in our fights, nor talked smack about anyone. This should be no surprise-- it is what I have ALWAYS seen Guro Inosanto, with whom I now have some 26 years, represent in word and deed. I'm thinking this will be my last word in this conversation. The Adventure continues, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2600 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2008: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest