Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 22:56:46 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #14 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (james jr. sy) 2. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (james jr. sy) 3. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum: More Kaveman Kali (jay de leon) 4. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (jay de leon) 5. Roots of Martial Arts in Africa (Stephen Lamade) 6. Re: Roots of Martial Arts in Africa (jay de leon) 7. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (Tyler Murphy) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 02:22:21 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Actually, themurals in the Beni Hassan depicted Wrestling moves most of which are still in use in modern Wrestling.  There are also depictions of stickfighting and boxing but scholars could not piece together as of yet how themoves were done.  Oyama, masutatsu Sosai mentioned these murals in his book on Karate.  Others have also written about it but not much elaboration.    Just what i know.    James U. Sy Jr. --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Tyler Murphy wrote: From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 10:42 AM Not the way I understand it. Enlighten me. Maybe you have some links or something else to back up that statement about Africa? --- On Tue, 1/13/09, B Light wrote: > From: B Light > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 11:18 AM > The first recorded martial arts were in ancient Africa, and > these influenced > people around the world. The wall paintings at Beni Hasan > graphically > illustrate this point, showing ancient grappling. Ancient > Africans also > developed stick fighting and boxing, and there is much > documentation of this > also. I wouldn't be surprised that the first MMA were > created there too, > although information about that is harder to find. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:52:05 -0800 (PST) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Regarding combat kiai, what I wouldn't want to encounter is the Lion's Roar (remember Kung Fu Hustle?).  All the MA in the world can do nothing if it's already the better half who starts using the Lion's Roar c" --- On Wed, 1/14/09, jay de leon wrote: From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 12:38 AM hi james:   true, and don't forget bruce lee and his animal sounds or whatever they were.   and don't tell me that was only the movies.  hey, for me bruce lee is as real as you can get  :)   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Tue, 1/13/09, james jr. sy wrote: From: james jr. sy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 2:36 AM Master Jay,   Don't forget all the growling that the Okinawans later integrated into their Te :) James U. Sy Jr. --- On Mon, 1/12/09, jay de leon wrote: From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, January 12, 2009, 3:25 AM that story simply illustrates the universality of the development of martial arts, including the "grappling" arts.   by that time in human history (1940's), many grappling arts had already been formulated, probably by necessity, independent of each other--pankration in greece, jiu-jitsu in japan, chin-na in china, dumog and buno in the philippines, lua in the hawaiian islands, etc.   i will tell you the real origin of the grappling arts.   there was this caveman named Og, who was on his way home to the warmth of his cave, dragging his girl friend by the hair with his left hand and eating dinosaur BBQ with his right hand.   suddenly he was ambushed by Mongrel Dog With Sores (MDWS) from an unfriendly neighboring tribe who was armed with a club.   caught unarmed, Og had to improvise. he dropped what he was holding, did a vine or snake on the club, in the struggle accidentally reaped MDWS's right foot,  fell on MDWS, mounted him, and started pounding on him with fists and elbow.  needless to say, that maneuver saved the day (and his gf and BBQ dinosaur) for Og.   my research shows that Og subsequently started his martial arts system not long after this incident, calling it "caveman rock and roll."    sorry, kaibigan Abon, but your FMA was only second to Og's system, together with the greeks, phoenicians, nubians, assyrians, fijians and others.   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Sun, 1/11/09, Michael Gallagher wrote: From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, January 11, 2009, 10:13 AM At 09:09 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >greetings to all, >may I add here that somewhere in the hinterlands of San Carlos, Negros >Oriental there is a system of arnis that named their strangulation and >disarming as "combat Judo". In fact any takedown (Throwing), disarming, >strangulation, twisting of arms or pinning (as in aikido) the locals here >called it combat judo or simply judo. >__ And Sifu Dan Inosanto once said at a seminar (a couple of years ago, so my memory might be hazy) that back during WW2, when Filipinos were asked what their grappling system was, they weren't sure what to call it, so they called it Judo or Jujitsu, but it was really Filipino in origin. >_____________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Michael J. Gallagher mikejoe7g@yahoo.com Cortland, NY USA "I am not A big fat panda. I am THE big fat Panda." -- Po, KUNG FU PANDA _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 09:21:01 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum: More Kaveman Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net to bot and james:   the two of you and abon baet are such linguists, although abon did miss "pokpokan" in his recent post.   my favorite FMA term is still "upakan" (similar in meaning), which is actually the name of listmember Gabe Rafael's style. i told him one time he had the most violent name of FMA styles - "upakan bara-bara" {something like free-style fisticuffs??).   and gabe is such a mild-mannered gentleman.   jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Wed, 1/14/09, james jr. sy wrote: From: james jr. sy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum: More Kaveman Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 2:28 AM Prof. Bot,   I think you mistranscribed it. It's really Pok!  Pok!  Pok!  Pok!  It's actually the art of giving blows.  It's name Pokpokan!  c" --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Felipe Jocano wrote: From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum: More Kaveman Kali To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 10:46 AM Hi Manong Jay: Recent research seems to confirm this story. A set of hitherto undiscovered cave paintings was shown to actually record the life and times of Og. In addition, a fair amount of his wisdom was recorded in them. Rendered phonetically, it runs as follows: Ook ook. Ook ook. Ook ook. Ook ook. Ook ook. Ook ook. Ook ook. The closest rendering is: Hit 'em. Hit 'em. Hit 'em. Hit 'em. Hit 'em. Hit 'em. Hit 'em. :-P Bot Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 08:59:53 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   Tyler:   You are welcome.    As usual, in his infinite wisdom,  Ray is right in that it is probably impossible to pinpoint the "first recorded martial arts."  you will have to define your terms--does "recorded" include cave paintings?  does martial arts include   gladiatorial combat or clubbing a T-rex?   i assume you are referring to my link when you mentioned "black history at college."  the author mentions several other researchers and studies in his article.  i would probably suggest a more in-depth scholarly research on your part into his references before being so dismissive of his article.   besides, i was merely offering a starting point.   you are also implying a slightly insidious aspect to this discussion--that somebody might claim that african martial arts is superior to anything else, than say, european or asian martial arts.   slightly illogical, since being first does not necessarily mean better.  and then again, you will have to quantify what better means.   Og might have been the first, but was his style "better" than, say, garimot arnis?   anyway, do you have your own theory to all this,  possibly with some scholarly research from an outside source or your own?   thanks.   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Tyler Murphy wrote: From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 5:04 AM Thank you for the link Guru Jay. I still say however that it's possible people came about from somewhere else other than Africa. As humans we have gone through many understandings of our origins and I am sure soon that there will be a new theory to where people came from. The reason i asked for a link was because he said "The first recorded martial arts were in ancient Africa, and these influenced people around the world" How can such an absolute statement be made about anything in the world, let alone Martial Arts and the origin of man? That's why I wanted something other than that statement, a link to something other than Black history at college that says humans evolved there. That does not answer my question as to why must MA come from there? This irritates me because it's just another way for someone to prove the lineage of the art is better than someone else. Tyler --- On Tue, 1/13/09, jay de leon wrote: > From: jay de leon > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 9:21 PM > try this link. >   > http://www.africawithin.com/black_history/overview_chapter1.htm >   > jay de leon > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > > > --- On Tue, 1/13/09, Tyler Murphy > wrote: > > From: Tyler Murphy > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA > curriculum > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 6:42 PM > > Not the way I understand it. Enlighten me. Maybe you have > some links or > something else to back up that statement about Africa? > > > --- On Tue, 1/13/09, B Light > wrote: > > > From: B Light > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA > curriculum > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 11:18 AM > > The first recorded martial arts were in ancient > Africa, and > > these influenced > > people around the world. The wall paintings at Beni > Hasan > > graphically > > illustrate this point, showing ancient grappling. > Ancient > > Africans also > > developed stick fighting and boxing, and there is much > > documentation of this > > also. I wouldn't be surprised that the first MMA > were > > created there too, > > although information about that is harder to find. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Stephen Lamade To: Eskrima Digest Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 16:04:15 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Roots of Martial Arts in Africa Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Tyler wrote:"Thank you for the link Guru Jay. I still say however that it's possible peoplecame about from somewhere else other than Africa. As humans we have gonethrough many understandings of our origins and I am sure soon that there willbe a new theory to where people came from. The reason i asked for a link wasbecause he said"The first recorded martial arts were in ancient Africa, and these influencedpeople around the world"How can such an absolute statement be made about anything in the world, letalone Martial Arts and the origin of man? That's why I wanted something otherthan that statement, a link to something other than Black history at collegethat says humans evolved there. That does not answer my question as to whymust MA come from there? This irritates me because it's just another way forsomeone to prove the lineage of the art is better than someone else."Based upon what we know about current anthropological studies, it's fair to say that humans evolved in Africa before migrating to different parts of the world. I also think it's likely that as they evolved they practiced some type of of martial art, in the line of what is depicted in 2001: A Space Odyssey (i.e., "hit 'em! hit 'em!).I don't think that the martial arts depicted in cave paintings influenced the development of martial arts elsewhere any more than depictions of hunting influenced the development of hunting. Certainly the practice of e.g. hunting in one valley may have influenced the practice of hunting in another valley as people migrated from place to place, but in general, hunting practices probably developed along general and independent pathways. Questions of "lineage" and "which art is better" are as irrelevant today as they were in 10,000 BC.Best,Steve Lamadewww.northshoreac.com --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:41:01 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Roots of Martial Arts in Africa To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net a little bit more direct than what i posted (probably about the same time), lol, but i agree.   jay de leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Stephen Lamade wrote: From: Stephen Lamade Subject: [Eskrima] Roots of Martial Arts in Africa To: "Eskrima Digest" Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 8:04 AM .... Questions of "lineage" and "which art is better" are as irrelevant today as they were in 10,000 BC.Best,Steve Lamadewww.northshoreac.com _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:36:17 -0800 (PST) From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Guru Jay, No I did not mean it that way though after reading I am seeing that is the way it is written. I was doing 2 things at once and never good when talking about these things. What I was meaning is that I do not beleive there is a mother art anywhere nor has there ever been, just that forms of combat have evolved different places and different times with different cultures all over the world. I prefer to look at things from a hoplology perspective when it comes to MA. I did not mean to make it sound insidious or that I was putting down anyone or anything from Africa. It was the generalised statement that I saw in the orginal article that I did not like. An absolute statement that "this is where this comes from". It to me is the same argument that gets brought up about FMA and the exsistance or not of a mother art. To me it doesn't really matter where your art comes from. To me it matters what the person practicing it can do. If someone read my last message to Guru Jay and took offense I did not mean it, I just didn't get all my thoughts out at once of what I was trying to say. Thank you again for your reply Guru Jay. Tyler --- On Wed, 1/14/09, jay de leon wrote: > From: jay de leon > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 10:59 AM >   > Tyler: >   > You are welcome.  >   > As usual, in his infinite wisdom,  Ray is right > in that it is probably impossible to pinpoint > the "first recorded martial arts."  you will > have > to define your terms--does "recorded" include > cave paintings?  does martial arts include   > gladiatorial combat or clubbing a T-rex? >   > i assume you are referring to my link when > you mentioned "black history at college."  > the author mentions several other researchers > and studies in his article.  i would probably > suggest a more in-depth scholarly research > on your part into his references before being > so dismissive of his article. >   > besides, i was merely offering a starting point. >   > you are also implying a slightly insidious aspect > to this discussion--that somebody might claim > that african martial arts is superior to anything > else, than say, european or asian martial arts.   > slightly illogical, since being first does not > necessarily mean better.  and then again, you > will have to quantify what better means. >   > Og might have been the first, but was his style > "better" than, say, garimot arnis? >   > anyway, do you have your own theory to all > this,  possibly with some scholarly research > from an outside source or your own? >   > thanks. >   > jay de leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com >   > > > --- On Wed, 1/14/09, Tyler Murphy > wrote: > > From: Tyler Murphy > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA > curriculum > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wednesday, January 14, 2009, 5:04 AM > > Thank you for the link Guru Jay. I still say however that > it's possible > people > came about from somewhere else other than Africa. As humans > we have gone > through many understandings of our origins and I am sure > soon that there will > be a new theory to where people came from. The reason i > asked for a link was > because he said > > "The first recorded martial arts were in ancient > Africa, and these > influenced > people around the world" > > How can such an absolute statement be made about anything > in the world, let > alone Martial Arts and the origin of man? That's why I > wanted something > other > than that statement, a link to something other than Black > history at college > that says humans evolved there. That does not answer my > question as to why > must MA come from there? This irritates me because it's > just another way > for > someone to prove the lineage of the art is better than > someone else. > > Tyler > > --- On Tue, 1/13/09, jay de leon > wrote: > > > From: jay de leon > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA > curriculum > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 9:21 PM > > try this link. > >   > > > http://www.africawithin.com/black_history/overview_chapter1.htm > >   > > jay de leon > > www.filipinofightingartsintl.com > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/13/09, Tyler Murphy > > wrote: > > > > From: Tyler Murphy > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA > > curriculum > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 6:42 PM > > > > Not the way I understand it. Enlighten me. Maybe you > have > > some links or > > something else to back up that statement about Africa? > > > > > > --- On Tue, 1/13/09, B Light > > wrote: > > > > > From: B Light > > > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of > FMA > > curriculum > > > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > > Date: Tuesday, January 13, 2009, 11:18 AM > > > The first recorded martial arts were in ancient > > Africa, and > > > these influenced > > > people around the world. The wall paintings at > Beni > > Hasan > > > graphically > > > illustrate this point, showing ancient grappling. > > Ancient > > > Africans also > > > developed stick fighting and boxing, and there is > much > > > documentation of this > > > also. I wouldn't be surprised that the first > MMA > > were > > > created there too, > > > although information about that is harder to > find. > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > > _______________________________________________ > > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts > Resource > > Standard disclaimers apply > > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest