Date: Fri, 16 Jan 2009 02:18:07 +0100 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #15 - 11 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. African Martial Arts (Kendal Coats) 2. Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (Afern27@aol.com) 3. Re: African Martial Arts (Ray) 4. Earliest martial art (Julian Gilmour) 5. Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum (Bill Debuque) 6. Re: Earliest martial art (realitycombat) 7. Re: Earliest martial art (jay de leon) 8. Re: Earliest martial art (iPat) 9. Re: Earliest martial art (jay de leon) 10. Re: Earliest martial art (Ray) 11. FMA seminar (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 15:04:16 -0800 (PST) From: Kendal Coats To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] African Martial Arts Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Two things.... 1. Notice I deleted the last email so that my reply was not so long. Can more of us do the same thing. 2. Would some of you be more comfortable if we said that some of the oldest records of the martial sciences were found in Africa. (this is a fact) My teacher told me that the martial sciences began in Africa, then migrated to India, then to Asia. It evolved along the way. There was no mother art. FMA have evolved as well. All surviving martial science has evolved. Enemies changed, weapons changed, systems changed. The ones that did not evolve were defeated and are lost to history. There is a finite number of ways the human body can move, and it is quite likely that similar fighting styles evolved completely independently of each other. Often it was a common enemy (Spanish for example). --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Afern27@aol.com Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:57:00 EST To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Great point about Beni Hasan. That is definitely proof of martial arts-like practices in Africa, predating pankration by quite a bit. Not surprising really since civilization existed before Greece came along!!! Even if folks of European descent tend to overlook that for some reason. **************A Good Credit Score is 700 or Above. See yours in just 2 easy steps! (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100000075x1215855013x1201028747/aol?redir=http://www.freecreditreport.com/pm/default.aspx?sc=668072%26hmpgID=62%26bcd=De cemailfooterNO62) --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] African Martial Arts Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:40:26 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Thanks for the reminder to the list members. Folks, remember to trim/truncate/shorten/edit the email replies that you send to the list. There is really no need to quote the quote of a quote in your reply. If you send a post to the list and don't see it distributed it is probably because I just deleted it because it was not shortened. Sometimes I have the time to return, aka reject, them to you with a reason, but sometimes I don't. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jan 14, 2009, at 3:04 PM, Kendal Coats wrote: > 1. Notice I deleted the last email so that my reply was not so long. > Can more of us do the same thing. --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 10:17:43 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all I studied biology at university and evolution was part of the curriculum. The consensus of opinion was that humans evolved from protohuman ape-like creatures, somewhere in Africa. There are and will always be questions surrounding this, and the view may be revised with empirical evidence, but the general consensus remains, for the moment, at least. ‘Speciation’, the creation of a new species as it is known, is a gradual process, and any moment of where we became human will always be impossible to pinpoint, because, by definition, it is prehistoric, i.e. before records began. Scientifically speaking, the net result is when a population can breed amongst itself, but not with any of its closely similar ‘cousins’. I appreciate that many on the list will not subscribe to this view of our species, and I don’t want to offend. You may also be wondering what this has to do with martial arts, but if you do subscribe to something like this, I would say that martial arts are older than humans. I have been in the presence of wild baboons in the Middle East, and found them very scary indeed. I was warned that at well as having those long, sharp teeth, which must make them very unpleasant to wrestle with, they have even been known to fight using closed fists, like a man (or woman). It is also apparent that chimps use clubs and even make stabbing weapons to hunt and kill with: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/22/AR20070222010 07.html I am pretty sure that these creatures don’t have a syllabus or a belt ranking system, but this could be considered to be martial arts of a sort, because they pass the behaviour on to each other. So for me, I think the beginning of the thread of the arts is older than man itself, and has remained throughout our existence as a species. Long may it continue! Just my tuppence worth. ‘Strike from the void’ (with that hairy hand of yours) Julian _________________________________________________________________ Imagine a life without walls.  See the possibilities http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465943/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 14 Jan 2009 23:09:43 -0800 (PST) From: Bill Debuque Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net There is also a possibility that "Combat Judo" is of American origin, courtesy of the operatives of the US Army/OSS inserted into the Philippines during the Japanese occupation via submarine to train Filipino guerillas.  The June 30, 1942 FM 21-150 (Unarmed Defense for the American Soldier) acknowledges its primary source as the MA system developed by the American Judo Club.     It might also be safe to assume that even before this American system of unarmed combat was formalized into an Army-wide FM, the techniques have already been taught side-by-side with the FMA techniques incorporated into the curriculum of pre-WWII special US Army units such as the Philippine Scouts. --- On Mon, 1/12/09, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net wrote: Message: 5 Date: Sun, 11 Jan 2009 13:13:02 -0500 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net From: Michael Gallagher Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Combat Judo as part of FMA curriculum Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net At 09:09 AM 1/10/2009, you wrote: >greetings to all, >may I add here that somewhere in the hinterlands of San Carlos, Negros >Oriental there is a system of arnis that named their strangulation and >disarming as "combat Judo". In fact any takedown (Throwing), disarming, >strangulation,  twisting of arms or pinning (as in aikido)   the locals here >called it combat judo or simply judo. >__ And Sifu Dan Inosanto once said at a seminar (a couple of years ago, so my memory might be hazy) that back during WW2, when Filipinos were asked what their grappling system was, they weren't sure what to call it, so they called it Judo or Jujitsu, but it was really Filipino in origin. --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:36:51 -0600 (GMT-06:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Evelution is not a fact it is a theory. The more you study evolution the more you realize that it is a lie. I did not come from an ape and neither did you. I was created by God ans so are my ancestors. Science itself disproves evelution. If you want proof, check out anything by Dr. Kent Hovend. Guro/Sifu J Hosch -----Original Message----- >From: Julian Gilmour >Sent: Jan 15, 2009 4:17 AM >To: Escrima Digest >Subject: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art > >Hi all > >I studied biology at university and evolution was part of the curriculum. The >consensus of opinion was that humans evolved from protohuman ape-like >creatures, somewhere in Africa. There are and will always be questions >surrounding this, and the view may be revised with empirical evidence, but the >general consensus remains, for the moment, at least. > >‘SpeciationÂ’, the creation of a new species as it is known, is a gradual >process, and any moment of where we became human will always be impossible to >pinpoint, because, by definition, it is prehistoric, i.e. before records >began. Scientifically speaking, the net result is when a population can breed >amongst itself, but not with any of its closely similar ‘cousinsÂ’. > >I appreciate that many on the list will not subscribe to this view of our >species, and I donÂ’t want to offend. You may also be wondering what this has >to do with martial arts, but if you do subscribe to something like this, I >would say that martial arts are older than humans. I have been in the presence >of wild baboons in the Middle East, and found them very scary indeed. I was >warned that at well as having those long, sharp teeth, which must make them >very unpleasant to wrestle with, they have even been known to fight using >closed fists, like a man (or woman). > >It is also apparent that chimps use clubs and even make stabbing weapons to >hunt and kill with: > >http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/22/AR2007022201 0 >07.html > >I am pretty sure that these creatures donÂ’t have a syllabus or a belt ranking >system, but this could be considered to be martial arts of a sort, because >they pass the behaviour on to each other. So for me, I think the beginning of >the thread of the arts is older than man itself, and has remained throughout >our existence as a species. Long may it continue! > >Just my tuppence worth. > >‘Strike from the voidÂ’ (with that hairy hand of yours) > >Julian > >_________________________________________________________________ >Imagine a life without walls.  See the possibilities >http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465943/direct/01/ >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 12:29:29 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net julian:   interesting position.  and i repeat my mantra, it is a matter of defining your terms.   if you want to posit, and define, that there is/was such a thing as "animal martial arts," with kicks and punches (kangaroos maybe) and wrestling and punches with some bites ala mike tyson (babboons), that might fly, and might even make for an interesting segment for "Animal Planet" or Discovery Channel or the like.   but unless there were also animal archivists, it would be difficult to argue for their being "first recorded martial arts."   hhmmm, i wonder if i could found a new martial arts style and trace my art's lineage all the way back to your "animal martial arts" in africa, and claim superiority?   or have bruce lee and other kung fu people already beat me that idea?   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   --- On Thu, 1/15/09, Julian Gilmour wrote: From: Julian Gilmour Subject: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art To: "Escrima Digest" Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 2:17 AM Hi all ... You may also be wondering what this has to do with martial arts, but if you do subscribe to something like this, I would say that martial arts are older than humans. I have been in the presence of wild baboons in the Middle East, and found them very scary indeed. I was warned that at well as having those long, sharp teeth, which must make them very unpleasant to wrestle with, they have even been known to fight using closed fists, like a man (or woman). It is also apparent that chimps use clubs and even make stabbing weapons to hunt and kill with: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/02/22/AR20070222010 07.html I am pretty sure that these creatures don˘t have a syllabus or a belt ranking system, but this could be considered to be martial arts of a sort, because they pass the behaviour on to each other... Julian _________________________________________________________________ Imagine a life without walls.  See the possibilities http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/122465943/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 20:47:59 +0000 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net chicken or the egg? its FMA, plenty of other forums to voice whatever you want to believe in. julian was very polite, and if you read his mail, he clearly states many may not accept his 'belief', yet still kept it to a martial art relevance. This mail doesn't and ray i'm going to spank you if you let non ma mails onto the list........you naughty boy. as for the ranking system, the redder the baboons ar-se, the lower the rank! ; ) On Thu, Jan 15, 2009 at 6:36 PM, realitycombat wrote: > Evelution is not a fact it is a theory. The more you study evolution the more > you realize that it is a lie. I did not come from an ape and neither did you. > I was created by God ans so are my ancestors. Science itself disproves > evelution. If you want proof, check out anything by Dr. Kent Hovend. > > Guro/Sifu > J Hosch -- Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk a mind that is entrenched in the authority of knowledge cannot possibly learn --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 14:43:28 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net pat:   careful with the threats, if i were you. ray might actually demand that spanking. in his case, he just might want red cheeks.   jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Thu, 1/15/09, iPat wrote: From: iPat Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, January 15, 2009, 12:47 PM ...and ray i'm going to spank you if you let non ma mails onto the list........you naughty boy. as for the ranking system, the redder the baboons ar-se, the lower the rank! ; ) -- Pat Davies Aberdeen Martial Arts Group www.amag.org.uk Rehome a Boxer: www.boxerwelfarescotland.co.uk a mind that is entrenched in the authority of knowledge cannot possibly learn _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 10 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Earliest martial art Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:03:01 -0800 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Promises promises... Ray On Jan 15, 2009, at 12:47 PM, iPat wrote: > and ray i'm going to spank > you --__--__-- Message: 11 Date: Thu, 15 Jan 2009 15:13:45 -0800 (PST) From: jay de leon To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] FMA seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net   I would like to announce, and heartily endorse, an upcoming FMA seminar on Feb. 21. 2009 in Anaheim, Orange County, California.  It features an interesting mix of well-known instructors.   See flyer below, including other particulars.   Contact John Brown for the exact address of the venue.   Thank you, and see you there.   jay de leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com     2009 FMA Gathering Saturday Feb. 21st Anaheim Ca.    Hosting: Blaise Loong     Blays-Halla Battle Academy   Special guest Instructor: Dexter Labonog and Senior Instructors      SCHEDULE:                                                          10-12  Bahala Na Multi-Style    DEXTER LABONOG     (Featuring Largamano the Matador Style)     (Original Giron System)    12:30-2:30  Bahad Zu˘Bu        JOHN BROWN      3-5 Patayin estilo eskrima     BLAISE LOONG     Bring your gear!!    Light contact application (gloves, headgear, and pads)  COME  SHOW YOUR SUPPORT FOR THE  FILIPINO FIGHTING ARTS  DON˘T MISS THIS RARE EVENT!!!   "Workshop donation fee $35 for affiliates and $55 for Non-affiliates"   Call to preregister and qualify for the $35 affiliate donation fee   Contact: John Brown (801) 550-8375 email: jhollandb@yahoo.com     --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest