Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 20:53:11 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #133 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. hard contact testing (Federico Malibago) 2. Re: hard contact testing (Mike Casto) 3. Re: hard contact testing (Glenn Timmons) 4. Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #132 - 4 msgs (Eagle556@aol.com) 5. PTI summer camp early registration deadline (william mcgrath) 6. Re: Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #132 - 4 msgs (Ray) 7. Re: Testing your art (neercsemantwelve@aol.com) 8. Re: Testing your art (Ray) 9. Testing your art (Mr KRS) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:51:57 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] hard contact testing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Interesting ideas going around, its good to see the spirit of the Mandirigma alive and kicking. Was curious as to how people feel about hard contact as well as soft contact testing, the best ways to approach it? If you have to use some control or limit targets when using extremely limited safety precautions, do you supplement this sparring by using some safety gear and removing these limits on targetting and power? If using a blend of sparring/training scenarios (e.g. regular no armor controlled contact matched with just as regular minimal armor 100% contact), have people noticed a blending of skills (e.g. I fight the same just alot harder and have more target options), or has anyone noticed people just tending to learn to fight for the different games (e.g. ok no armor I can lead with my head cuz no one wants to cripple me, with armor I do something completely different or in other words looks like I train two different arts depending on the sparring environment)? Should the two mediums of sparring/testing even be mixed? --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 18:23:23 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] hard contact testing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I always keep in mind a phrase my instructor is fond of: "You have to develop your tools before testing them." I think the whole spectrum - flow drills and technical training through light sparring through heavy sparring with and without various weapons - is required to fully develop as a martial artist. I'm not a big fan of the "spar hard all the time" mentality. My reasons for this are: (a) There's little or no development happening. It's all about testing. Some groups I've seen spend, for instance, an hour on flow drills and technical material and then an hour of hard sparring. These groups do get to develop their tools but they'll still often find themselves trying to test tools that aren't well developed yet. These groups, though, run into the second issue I have. (b) Injury is more likely and common when hard sparring is done. I define "injury" as something that inhibits training for longer than an hour or so. A bloody lip or even a broken nose generally doesn't qualify. Bruises and minor abrasions/lacerations don't qualify. A broken leg, obviously, is going to inhibit training. It doesn't necessarily prevent any training - you might to seated drills or whatever - but it will certainly be inhibited. Training should, IMO, be about improvement - not about recovering from injuries. I broke my toe a couple of years ago. It didn't prevent me from doing stand up but at the time I was regularly training in BJJ class and there were just way too many possibilities for catching my toe in a gi or whatever so I opted to sit out of BJJ until the toe had healed. One evening I was waiting for the BJJ class (that I normally trained in) to end so I could teach my Sikal class. One of the BJJ guys asked why I was on the sidelines. I explained the broken toe. He shrugged and pointed at his toes - he had 1 or 2 broken toes himself. I laughed and said, "Yup. 10 years ago I'd have been back on the mat without hesitation. Doing that, though, means I still have injuries from 10 years ago that give me trouble today." :-) I think hard sparring is absolutely vital for someone who wants to be able to actually fight with their material. You *have* to spar hard. You don't have to do it all the time, though. I think someone else said they do it once every few months or so. I consider that reasonable. I work my students up to it. Now, if they already have a solid background in something else then I'll start them sparring - even hard sparring if the material is related to what they previously trained. With someone with no sparring background, though, I wait a few months, let them develop some basic tools, then introduce them to light sparring. From there, as they further develop those basic tools and they begin to develop new tools I gradually turn up the sparring. Within a year or so they're usually up to hard sparring. I'm not a big fan of gear. Putting on gloves - even street hockey gloves or whatever - takes a chunk of my standard material away from me. Sometimes I do that specifically to take those tools away from myself as a training method to help me develop other tools. Generally, though, I prefer minimal gear sparring. I don't mind using padded sticks - except they tend to break. Eyewear is still a good idea. After a few years, though, hard sparring with rattan is fine. For that I do encourage some sort of head, elbow & knee protection. That limits the likelihood of injury more serious than what a few stitches can fix. Done frequently, though, there's a point of diminishing returns where your injuries inhibit your training to the point that your training starts to really suffer. Push past that and you spend more time recovering from injuries than you do training. Personally, I think it's all about moderation - training hard & smart :-) Mike Federico Malibago wrote: > Interesting ideas going around, its good to see the spirit of the Mandirigma > alive and kicking. Was curious as to how people feel about hard contact as > well as soft contact testing, the best ways to approach it? If you have to > use some control or limit targets when using extremely limited safety > precautions, do you supplement this sparring by using some safety gear and > removing these limits on targetting and power? If using a blend of > sparring/training scenarios (e.g. regular no armor controlled contact matched > with just as regular minimal armor 100% contact), have people noticed a > blending of skills (e.g. I fight the same just alot harder and have more > target options), or has anyone noticed people just tending to learn to fight > for the different games (e.g. ok no armor I can lead with my head cuz no one > wants to cripple me, with armor I do something completely different or in > other words looks like I train two different arts depending on the sparring > environment)? Should the two mediums of sparring/testing even be mixed? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:12:54 -0700 (PDT) From: Glenn Timmons Subject: Re: [Eskrima] hard contact testing To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In short of all comments; whatever you want to challenge yourself to; you must expect? you always will reap what you sow... Good or Bad both are equal ! you will learn something regardless and that's the truth. ________________________________ From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sunday, June 28, 2009 6:23:23 PM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] hard contact testing I always keep in mind a phrase my instructor is fond of: "You have to develop your tools before testing them." I think the whole spectrum - flow drills and technical training through light sparring through heavy sparring with and without various weapons - is required to fully develop as a martial artist. I'm not a big fan of the "spar hard all the time" mentality. My reasons for this are: (a) There's little or no development happening. It's all about testing. Some groups I've seen spend, for instance, an hour on flow drills and technical material and then an hour of hard sparring. These groups do get to develop their tools but they'll still often find themselves trying to test tools that aren't well developed yet. These groups, though, run into the second issue I have. (b) Injury is more likely and common when hard sparring is done. I define "injury" as something that inhibits training for longer than an hour or so. A bloody lip or even a broken nose generally doesn't qualify. Bruises and minor abrasions/lacerations don't qualify. A broken leg, obviously, is going to inhibit training. It doesn't necessarily prevent any training - you might to seated drills or whatever - but it will certainly be inhibited. Training should, IMO, be about improvement - not about recovering from injuries. I broke my toe a couple of years ago. It didn't prevent me from doing stand up but at the time I was regularly training in BJJ class and there were just way too many possibilities for catching my toe in a gi or whatever so I opted to sit out of BJJ until the toe had healed. One evening I was waiting for the BJJ class (that I normally trained in) to end so I could teach my Sikal class. One of the BJJ guys asked why I was on the sidelines. I explained the broken toe. He shrugged and pointed at his toes - he had 1 or 2 broken toes himself. I laughed and said, "Yup. 10 years ago I'd have been back on the mat without hesitation. Doing that, though, means I still have injuries from 10 years ago that give me trouble today." :-) I think hard sparring is absolutely vital for someone who wants to be able to actually fight with their material. You *have* to spar hard. You don't have to do it all the time, though. I think someone else said they do it once every few months or so. I consider that reasonable. I work my students up to it. Now, if they already have a solid background in something else then I'll start them sparring - even hard sparring if the material is related to what they previously trained. With someone with no sparring background, though, I wait a few months, let them develop some basic tools, then introduce them to light sparring. From there, as they further develop those basic tools and they begin to develop new tools I gradually turn up the sparring. Within a year or so they're usually up to hard sparring. I'm not a big fan of gear. Putting on gloves - even street hockey gloves or whatever - takes a chunk of my standard material away from me. Sometimes I do that specifically to take those tools away from myself as a training method to help me develop other tools. Generally, though, I prefer minimal gear sparring. I don't mind using padded sticks - except they tend to break. Eyewear is still a good idea. After a few years, though, hard sparring with rattan is fine. For that I do encourage some sort of head, elbow & knee protection. That limits the likelihood of injury more serious than what a few stitches can fix. Done frequently, though, there's a point of diminishing returns where your injuries inhibit your training to the point that your training starts to really suffer. Push past that and you spend more time recovering from injuries than you do training. Personally, I think it's all about moderation - training hard & smart :-) Mike Federico Malibago wrote: > Interesting ideas going around, its good to see the spirit of the Mandirigma > alive and kicking. Was curious as to how people feel about hard contact as > well as soft contact testing, the best ways to approach it? If you have to > use some control or limit targets when using extremely limited safety > precautions, do you supplement this sparring by using some safety gear and > removing these limits on targetting and power? If using a blend of > sparring/training scenarios (e.g. regular no armor controlled contact matched > with just as regular minimal armor 100% contact), have people noticed a > blending of skills (e.g. I fight the same just alot harder and have more > target options), or has anyone noticed people just tending to learn to fight > for the different games (e.g. ok no armor I can lead with my head cuz no one > wants to cripple me, with armor I do something completely different or in > other words looks like I train two different arts depending on the sparring > environment)? Should the two mediums of sparring/testing even be mixed? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Eagle556@aol.com Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 22:07:31 EDT To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #132 - 4 msgs Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have done this quite a bit over the years. The one addition that I have also made is eye protection. I have a question though for those of you that add padding to the hands. One of the things that I have always liked about the FMAs was the philosophy and practical application of defanging the snake. If you cover up your hands then how do you practice this aspect? I ask because I often notice that a number of practitioners that covered up their hands seemingly forget about this technique and the match becomes simply a wailing upon each other match with the winner judged to be he or she who could take the most punishment. Of course this leads to another question. If you are programming your body in this manner under adrenaline how do you reverse this conditioning when the fight involves a blade and that hit you took with the stick now becomes a fatal strike with the blade? Take care, Rob hard contact, but controlled? no pads, no gloves? i wonder if you've done this type of training yourself because this is pretty difficult. no gloves or pads? hopefully you are using a soft stick but still at least protecting your eyes. hard contact,but contolled. how is that possible with rattan or something harder. i think good hard sparring/fighting is imperitive to test your art, but safety is paramount so training and sparring can continue. Francisco **************Make your summer sizzle with fast and easy recipes for the grill. (http://food.aol.com/grilling?ncid=emlcntusfood00000005) --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:17:17 -0700 (PDT) From: william mcgrath To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] PTI summer camp early registration deadline Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi Folks, Just a friendly reminder that the early registration for the Pekiti-Tirsia International Summer Camp in Fishkill, NY ends midnight June 30th, 2009. The early registration price is 75 dollars per day for PTI members and 100 dollars per day for non-PTI members. On July 1st, the price goes up to 100 dollars per day for PTI members and 125 dollars per day for non-members. More info: http://www.pekiti.com/store/store.php?crn=213&rn=438&action=show_detail Regards, Tuhon Bill McGrath www.TheSwordofFire.com www.pekiti.com http://www.youtube.com/user/TuhonBillMcg --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #132 - 4 msgs Date: Sun, 28 Jun 2009 19:44:41 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Please remember to change your email's subject line. Thanks. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 7 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your art Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:28:14 -0400 From: neercsemantwelve@aol.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net ''Re contact, a similar thing could be said about fists and feet; how is controlled but hard contact possible? Yet we all know that it is.'' and depending on what art/sport you are hard sparring/contact/fighting protective equipment is used. gloves, shin pads, cup/groin protection, mouthguard, headgear, etc. ?Francisco Re contact, a similar thing could be said about fists and feet; how is controlled but hard contact possible? Yet we all know that it is. -----Original Message----- From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Sun, Jun 28, 2009 1:34 pm Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your art Yep, we've done it. But you're right about eye protection; racquetball glasses. Sorry to leave that out.? ? Soft sticks may have a place, but not in this type of sparring. Rattan is fine. In our case it isn't something we do/did every class. Once every few months is usually sufficient.? ? Re contact, a similar thing could be said about fists and feet; how is controlled but hard contact possible? Yet we all know that it is.? ? Ray? ? On Jun 28, 2009, at 12:52 PM, neercsemantwelve@aol.com wrote:? ? > hard contact, but controlled? no pads, no gloves? i wonder if you've > done this type of training yourself because this is pretty > difficult. no gloves or pads? hopefully you are using a soft stick > but still at least protecting your eyes. hard contact,but contolled. > how is that possible with rattan or something harder. i think good > hard sparring/fighting is imperitive to test your art, but safety is > paramount so training and sparring can continue.? >? > Francisco? _______________________________________________? Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members? Eskrima@martialartsresource.net? Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource? Standard disclaimers apply? Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net? --__--__-- Message: 8 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your art Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 08:00:48 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net It seems we have come full circle. Yes, sometimes protection is used in sparring, sometimes not. You're right, it depends. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jun 29, 2009, at 6:28 AM, neercsemantwelve@aol.com wrote: > and depending on what art/sport you are hard sparring/contact/ > fighting protective equipment is used. gloves, shin pads, cup/groin > protection, mouthguard, headgear, etc. --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 09:24:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr KRS Subject: [Eskrima] Testing your art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello to all, I've been reading the thread about protection and full contact sparring. At the end of the day we practice flow drills to strengthen and re-enforce attributes. There are 2 very important things to remember. This may not apply to all but I believe it is a general rule for most. 1) Slower movements enforce proper mechanics. 2) Speed and power come over time. I have seen in my own training and teaching that techniques break down when speed and power increases. Hard sparring on a regular basis without learning and mastering flow drills first can be damaging to your technique. Hard sparring periodically is great to get a "feel" for what may happen in street. When the adrenaline begins to flow things tend to breakdown and fine motor skills are reduced to gross motor skills. Slowing things down more often and mastering flow drills can get the brain and muscle twitch fibers working to the point of not thinking but simply doing. In regards to safety I always recommend eye protection. We rarely use hand protection when doing stick work but for practicing hard strikes to the hand I would recommend it. Another great training method is to use a hockey glove; the one with the rectangular pad in it, and have the person wearing the glove hold a stick. You can then practice hard strikes to the glove which in essence would destroy the hand if the glove were not being worn. When doing knife work we will use a neoprene thy protector wrapped around the wrist and forearm and always wear eye protection. Cuts and bruises heal but you can never replace an eye. Regards, Karl R. Swass Martial Blade Concepts Damithurt Silat Sobadowan Esckrima 4 Powers M.A.T.C “Do not conquer the world with force, for force only causes resistance.. Thorns spring up when an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to be done without using violence.” Lao Tsu (Tao Te Ching) ________________________________ From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Monday, June 29, 2009 11:00:48 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your art It seems we have come full circle. Yes, sometimes protection is used in sparring, sometimes not. You're right, it depends. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jun 29, 2009, at 6:28 AM, neercsemantwelve@aol.com wrote: > and depending on what art/sport you are hard sparring/contact/fighting protective equipment is used. gloves, shin pads, cup/groin protection, mouthguard, headgear, etc. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest