Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 18:55:03 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #135 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: Testing Your Art (Mike Casto) 2. Re: Re: Testing Your Art (jay de leon) 3. Bhakti Negara and Bukti Negara (Eric Taimanglo) 4. Art and the individual (Federico Malibago) 5. Re: Art and the individual (Mike Casto) 6. Re: Bhakti Negara and Bukti Negara (Mike Casto) 7. Re: hard contact testing (Andrew Maddox) 8. Re: Art and the individual (Mr KRS) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 14:19:07 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Testing Your Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I would actually say that all that can *ever* be tested is oneself - and one's grasp of their art. IMO, there's no such thing as "Art X" is better than "Art Y." There is no "best" martial art. There might be a "best" one for me and a "best" one for someone else but they often won't be the same one. I have poor depth perception and average arm/leg reach. This means things like TKD or Capoeira or fencing aren't going to suit me very well. I can learn things from studying them, of course, but none of them will ever be "best" for me because they focus too much on a range that I physically can't judge very well. Even when I trained in TKD my strategy was to get in close because I was at such a huge disadvantage at the longer range (it also didn't help at that time that I was the smallest person in the class and most of the class had arms that were longer than my legs :-) FMA suit me far better. However, the Silat I train is the "best" for me because it thrives at an extremely close range where vision is primarily used to assess the surroundings and potential incoming threats. Once I've engaged there's absolutely no reason for me to look at the opponent I'm dealing with; I've got my "second eyes" (my hands/body) on him so my vision isn't required and my poor depth perception isn't much of an issue. While I recommend and do spar against other systems/arts I'm never sparring that other system/art. I'm sparring that person. Consequently, the conversation to date would be exactly the same for me. When I posted I never assumed that I was sparring another person from my system or even FMA. It was a non-issue for me because I'm sparring the person not their system/art :-) Mike Al Sardinas wrote: > Regarding "Testing Your Art" it seems to me that no one here has > really has approached the subject correctly. Yes, there has been > discussion on hard contact, soft contact, armor, no armor, weapons, no > weapons, etc. but in reality no has tested their art. What has been > discussed boils down to is the testing of oneself not your art. How > well conditioned, how well you perform a drill, how you handle 2 or 3 > opponents in an altercation, the outcome is always a measure of > yourself not your art. > > To test your "Art" is to test your art against other systems using the > same criteria something similar to the show "Deadliest Warrior" on > Spike TV. > If someone had the inclination to set up test criteria that the "arts" > could be compared to then we would have the means to measure the > effectiveness of strikes, blocks, footworks, locks, etc. We could have > Babao Arnis vs. Balintawak vs. Doces Pares vs. Inayan System of > Eskrima vs. Inosanto Kali vs. Kombatan Arnis vs. Modern Arnis vs. > Pananandata vs. Pekiti-Tirsia vs. Sayoc Kali vs. Serrada Escrima and > so forth. > > Or we could do it old school and fight each other. > > However, in reality neither the modern method or the old school method > will help the Philippine Martial Arts. What should be focused on is > producing Filipino martial artists who can successfully test their > skills against other non-FMA martial art systems. Maybe collectively > we can select students that will have the blessings of more than one > FMArt to train respectively under more than FMart to represent all > FMarts. This has happened before mabe it will happen again. > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > Student of the Garimot System of Arnis > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Mon, 29 Jun 2009 15:10:56 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: Testing Your Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net (1) Assuming somebody does come up with the criteria, and you test the arts, how do you distinguish the arnisador and his style? Meaning, if a Sayoc guy goes up against an Inayan practitioner, are they testing each other as arnisadors, or are they testing their art? if the Inayan arnisador wins against the Sayoc guy, is it a valid conclusion that the Inayan style is superior to the Sayoc style? (2) Regarding testing FMA against other non-FMA arts, did you have a current event, tournament or similar occurence that would serve as a valid venue for the test? Assuming one does not currently exist, do you have a suggestion as to what that format might be? Thanks. Jay de Leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com --- On Mon, 6/29/09, Al Sardinas wrote: From: Al Sardinas Subject: [Eskrima] Re: Testing Your Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 11:12 AM Regarding "Testing Your Art" it seems to me that no one here has really has approached the subject correctly. Yes, there has been discussion on hard contact, soft contact, armor, no armor, weapons, no weapons, etc. but in reality no has tested their art. What has been discussed boils down to is the testing of oneself not your art. How well conditioned, how well you perform a drill, how you handle 2 or 3 opponents in an altercation, the outcome is always a measure of yourself not your art. To test your "Art" is to test your art against other systems using the same criteria something similar to the show "Deadliest Warrior" on Spike TV. If someone had the inclination to set up test criteria that the "arts" could be compared to then we would have the means to measure the effectiveness of strikes, blocks, footworks, locks, etc. We could have Babao Arnis vs. Balintawak vs. Doces Pares vs. Inayan System of Eskrima vs. Inosanto Kali vs. Kombatan Arnis vs. Modern Arnis vs. Pananandata vs. Pekiti-Tirsia vs. Sayoc Kali vs. Serrada Escrima and so forth. Or we could do it old school and fight each other. However, in reality neither the modern method or the old school method will help the Philippine Martial Arts. What should be focused on is producing Filipino martial artists who can successfully test their skills against other non-FMA martial art systems. Maybe collectively we can select students that will have the blessings of more than one FMArt to train respectively under more than FMart to represent all FMarts. This has happened before mabe it will happen again. Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of the Garimot System of Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 11:45:16 +0300 From: "Eric Taimanglo" To: Subject: [Eskrima] Bhakti Negara and Bukti Negara Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Okay. In Don Draeger's work, The Weapons & Fighting Arts of Indonesia, a Balinese style of pentjak silat, called Bhakti Negara, is covered. It was founded in 1955, by one Ida Bagus Oka Dinwangkara. However.... There is also the Bukti Negara style, founded by Paul DeThouars; one of his better known students, Stevan Plinck, says it comes from Java. Let the discussion begin. Unless, of course, it's been discussed already, in which case I offer apologies in advance. Eric B.Taimanglo MWR Coordinator KBR LOGCAP III Camp Taji APO AE 09378 713-445-4857 eric.taimanglo@kbr.com This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 04:06:27 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Art and the individual Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Given some of the turns of the thread, it begs to question further where does FMA sit with the individual? What is the relationship of the two? Is it external, so testing the art, the individual is only the means by which to execute the art (e.g. substitute any individual in). Or is it internal, e.g. instead of testing an art that is external to the individual (e.g. Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, etc...), you are testing the individuals expression of a personal art (e.g. the whole JKD thing). Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting? Or if it truly is always case of external art, as an individual are you absolved from testing your art, since it can never truly be yours? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:11:18 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Art and the individual Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Personally I think it's *always* the expression of the individual. The system of training is just a vehicle to get the individual to a particular destination. It's a method of helping the student find what they need. I make these distinctions in words: art = a group of systems, usually from a specific region and usually (though not always) sharing similarities in focus and training (i.e.: Kung Fu, Karate, FMA, Pentjak Silat) system = a specific curriculum style = an individual's expression of the material he's learned from the system/art At first, all students mimic the instructor. We have to. Over time, though, as our understanding of the material and the underlying reasons for doing the material a particular way, we begin to find our own expression. Some material works great for me but not as well for one of my peers. Other material works OK but will work better with some modification (as long as it adheres to the principles of the system then it should be valid material). Still other material just won't work for me. I still keep it because it might work for one of my students or it may work for me in 10 years or something but right now it's not going to show up in my expression of the material. All of this leads to personal a "system." Everyone develops one. It can't be helped because no two people are exactly alike in physical, mental, emotional or spiritual ways. All these factors contribute to the evolution of a personal expression. There are currently 8 full instructors in the system I teach. We all do and teach the same material but no two of us do or teach all the material exactly the same way. It's the same way when two musicians play the same piece or two people read the same book or two people see the same car accident. Everything gets run through an individual's perceptive filters and when they, in turn, pass that on to others - whether they're talking about the experience, playing the music, teaching, whatever - that perceptive difference will mean that their expression is totally unique. One of the funniest things I've had happen in this vein: One day I was working with a student on a blade disarm at my instructor's school. My instructor stopped and watched. When I was done he called me over and had me do the disarm on him. He said, "Interesting." I said, "What's that?" He said, "Where'd you learn to do that disarm like that?" (I was pressing the flat of the blade with a couple of knuckles to eject it). I said, "You taught it to me." He said, "Nope. I've never seen that before. It works for you so continue to use it but I wouldn't recommend you teach it to anyone who doesn't have ham hocks for hands." He then showed me the way he teaches it and, he was right, that's how he'd always done it (using the wrist notch against the flat of the blade). I know that's how he's always taught it. I have no idea where I got my variation. It does work for me but it's also very risky for someone with smaller hands than mine. Mike Federico Malibago wrote: > Given some of the turns of the thread, it begs to question further where does FMA sit with the individual? What is the relationship of the two? Is it external, so testing the art, the individual is only the means by which to execute the art (e.g. substitute any individual in). Or is it internal, e.g. instead of testing an art that is external to the individual (e.g. Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, etc...), you are testing the individuals expression of a personal art (e.g. the whole JKD thing). Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting? Or if it truly is always case of external art, as an individual are you absolved from testing your art, since it can never truly be yours? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:19:59 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Bhakti Negara and Bukti Negara Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net According to people I've asked about it - including Uncle Bill de Thouars, Aunt Joyce de Thouars, Stevan Plinck and others, there is no connection. Just a similarity in names - at least to American ears :-) Mike Eric Taimanglo wrote: > Okay. > > In Don Draeger's work, The Weapons & Fighting Arts of Indonesia, a Balinese > style of pentjak silat, called Bhakti Negara, is covered. It was founded in > 1955, by one Ida Bagus Oka Dinwangkara. > > However.... > > There is also the Bukti Negara style, founded by Paul DeThouars; one of his > better known students, Stevan Plinck, says it comes from Java. > > Let the discussion begin. > > Unless, of course, it's been discussed already, in which case I offer > apologies in advance. > > Eric B.Taimanglo > MWR Coordinator > KBR LOGCAP III > Camp Taji > APO AE 09378 > 713-445-4857 > eric.taimanglo@kbr.com > This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and > privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any > review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If > you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for > the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete > all copies of this message. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:56:51 +0000 (UTC) From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] hard contact testing Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Sun, 28 Jun 2009, Mike Casto wrote: > I think the whole spectrum - flow drills and technical training through light > sparring through heavy sparring with and without various weapons - is > required to fully develop as a martial artist. > I'm not a big fan of gear. Putting on gloves - even street hockey gloves or > whatever - takes a chunk of my standard material away from me. Sometimes I do > that specifically to take those tools away from myself as a training method > to help me develop other tools. Generally, though, I prefer minimal gear > sparring. I don't mind using padded sticks - except they tend to break. Just to throw in another two bits worth, I'm with Mike on this - when I have a club! (that's a completely different whine, though, more later[0]) Regular progression of fighting from set drills to free-flow "back and forth" with a range from "no gear, padded weapons [1], light contact to "almost no gear, unpadded sticks, light to hard contact depending on who's playing and how everybody feels that day" with some "minimal armor, padded weapons, hard-but-not-quite 100% contact" in there and as many other variations as we can do over time. Mix it up, test as many of your tools as you can in different combinations and situations, and make sure everybody is friends at the end of the day, to steal a great quote from our esteemed Dog Brothers. [0] Yeah, I still need people to build a club with [1] Sure, padded weapons break eventually, but they're expendable. I love the sticks from Lameco Eskrima Intl, Punong Guro Edgar left a good thing going there... -- Andrew Maddox, madsox2k at freeshell dot org Practitioner of Unaffiliated Martial Arts But really just, like, this guy, y'know? --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:43:43 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr KRS Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Art and the individual To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The whole subject is really up to ones interpretation. You can take 10 FMA practitioners from 10 different systems and have them face off down to the last 2, then have the last 2 face off and then say the winner has the best system. But did that FMA player truly have the best system or was that player simply better than the other? Was that player faster, stronger or simply more talanted than the other? I personally believe the system in and of itself is not alive until it is in the hands of the player. The players movements, thoughts, actions and reaction brings life to whatever system they practice. The system is not "doing" anything, it is the practitioner that is "doing" everything. The system is the framework in which the practitioner follows. I also believe a system becomes yours once you begin to alter it to fit your body type, limiitations, prefernces etc. By adding or removing techniques that do and do not work for you. I think the problem with this is some FMA practitioners make changes to systems but still promote the orginal names of the system as if no changes were made. Once you make major changes to the system it is no longer in it's original state and has been taylored to you therefore it is perfectly logical to say it is yours. Regards, Karl R. Swass Martial Blade Concepts Damithurt Silat Sobadowan Eskrima “Do not conquer the world with force, for force only causes resistance. Thorns spring up when an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to be done without using violence.” Lao Tsu (Tao Te Ching) ________________________________ From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:06:27 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Art and the individual Given some of the turns of the thread, it begs to question further where does FMA sit with the individual? What is the relationship of the two? Is it external, so testing the art, the individual is only the means by which to execute the art (e.g. substitute any individual in). Or is it internal, e.g. instead of testing an art that is external to the individual (e.g. Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, etc...), you are testing the individuals expression of a personal art (e.g. the whole JKD thing). Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting? Or if it truly is always case of external art, as an individual are you absolved from testing your art, since it can never truly be yours? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest