Date: Wed, 01 Jul 2009 02:48:22 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #136 - 4 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Art and the individual (jay de leon) 2. Testing Your Art (Ruel Apostol) 3. Re:Testing of Your Art (Al Sardinas) 4. Re: Art and the individual (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 06:44:27 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Art and the individual To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Very good distinction, sir.   The external art was and will never be yours.  In my case, it would be the Modern Arnis system with its body of knowledge, principles, techniques and warrior spirit developed by Remy Presas.   There is absolutely no doubt in my mind his system worked for him and for the dozens of hardy and dedicated disciples who followed in his footsteps, some of whom still walk the earth.  It would be superfluous and foolhardy on my part to test his external art, either against other FMA systems or non-FMA systems, not to mention way beyond my capabilities (smile when you agree with that one.)   The internal art is a different story.  It is our task to internalize the art as much as we are able to, and if we have the gumption and insight to do so, even modify, add, subtract to it without destroying its essence, and even test it as often or as infrequently as we want to.  That is indeed the essence of being an arnisador, and his particular martial arts quest.   Jay de Leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com     --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Federico Malibago wrote: From: Federico Malibago Subject: [Eskrima] Art and the individual To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:06 AM Given some of the turns of the thread, it begs to question further where does FMA sit with the individual?  What is the relationship of the two?  Is it external, so testing the art, the individual is only the means by which to execute the art (e.g. substitute any individual in).  Or is it internal, e.g. instead of testing an art that is external to the individual (e.g. Modern Arnis, Doce Pares, etc...), you are testing the individuals expression of a personal art (e.g. the whole JKD thing).  Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting?  Or if it truly is always case of external art, as an individual are you absolved from testing your art, since it can never truly be yours? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 08:45:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Ruel Apostol To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Testing Your Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net In my humble opinion, perhaps saying "testing your art" is a wrong statement. In the MMA circles, they say "it's not in the art... it's the player or fighter...", so perhaps the correct statement is "testing your skill". --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Al Sardinas" To: Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 13:14:57 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Testing of Your Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Karl R Swass "Some may disagree because in the JKD mindset you "become" the art which is more or less the stance I take. The knife is an extension of me, the stick is an extension of me etc. We all know, or should know, there is no such thing as "the best system". At the end of the day it is all based on an individuals own capabilities and limitations." I can agree with the above statement but then your art would be limited by your own capabilities. Also there has been much discussion before on the "best system" so no need to start up another controversy. However, if a person had the opportunity to attend free of charge a college of his or her choice - Breezeby Community College or Harvard, what would be the choice? The answer depends on that person's education. Mike Casto "I would actually say that all that can *ever* be tested is oneself - and one's grasp of their art. IMO, there's no such thing as "Art X" is better than "Art Y." There is no "best" martial art. There might be a "best" one for me and a "best" one for someone else but they often won't be the same one." I can agree with 2 of the 4 sentences above. I can not agree with a "IMO.....There....art. Because as you indicated in your first sentence an individual's analysis is limited by their grasp of their art. Jay de Leon "(1) Assuming somebody does come up with the criteria, and you test the arts, how do you distinguish the arnisador and his style? Meaning, if a Sayoc guy goes up against an Inayan practitioner, are they testing each other as arnisadors, or are they testing their art? if the Inayan arnisador wins against the Sayoc guy, is it a valid conclusion that the Inayan style is superior to the Sayoc style?" The answers to your questions are that it depends on the test. If it's a simple test like fighting each other then the conclusion is based on the individual and not the system. If it is a sophisticated test that involves penetrations, economy of motion, speed, angles and other factors that do not depend on the individual itself then the conclusion is based on the system. "(2) Regarding testing FMA against other non-FMA arts, did you have a current event, tournament or similar occurence that would serve as a valid venue for the test? Assuming one does not currently exist, do you have a suggestion as to what that format might be?" Presently, I do not know of an event or tournament that would test the full spectrum of FMArts against other non-FMArts but maybe the Dog Brothers or some other organization can develop something. As far as a suggestion as to what the format would be is that my first suggestion is to obtain a consensus and blessing from all the major players of what it should be. . Federico Malibago "Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting?" My answer to that question - Day One. Mike Casto "Personally I think it's *always* the expression of the individual. The system of training is just a vehicle to get the individual to a particular destination. It's a method of helping the student find what they need.I make these distinctions in words: art = a group of systems, usually from a specific region and usually (though not always) sharing similarities in focus and training (i.e.: Kung Fu, Karate, FMA, Pentjak Silat) system = a specific curriculum style = an individual's expression of the material he's learned from the system/art" I agree with your distinctions and therefore I must correct my original subject from RE: Testing of Your Art to Testing of Your System. Karl R. Swass "I also believe a system becomes yours once you begin to alter it to fit your body type, limiitations, prefernces etc. By adding or removing techniques that do and do not work for you. I think the problem with this is some FMA practitioners make changes to systems but still promote the orginal names of the system as if no changes were made. Once you make major changes to the system it is no longer in it's original state and has been taylored to you therefore it is perfectly logical to say it is yours." I'ts alright to alter it to fit your body type and limitations, it may be alright to remove or add techniques but when you say it yours you better call it: John Doe's Original But Diluted and Maybe Screwed Up By my Own Fault FMA Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of the Garimot System of Arnis --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 14:51:39 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Art and the individual Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yup. I personally feel that the personal expression is what makes them martial "arts." Same as any other form of art - writing, painting, sculpting, dancing, singing, etc. It's all about self expression. The "martial" "arts" then are about self expression through martial media (i.e.: fighting). If someone never finds their own self expression then they are just mimicking (like I said, everyone has to start there). To put it into musical terms, someone who hasn't found their own self expression is probably still a young piano student learning to play by rote memory. Unfortunately some people get stuck there. Self expression leads to pianists like Elton John or Billy Joel or Liberace (not that I'm comparing them to each other but they all have "self expression" through their piano playing). If the three of them chose to play the same arrangement of the same song there would still be subtle differences because each would express it in a different way. In my estimation that's what the "art" aspect of "martial arts" is all about. Mike jay de leon wrote: > Very good distinction, sir. > > The external art was and will never be yours. In my case, > it would be the Modern Arnis system with its body of knowledge, > principles, techniques and warrior spirit developed by Remy Presas. > > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind his system worked for him > and for the dozens of hardy and dedicated disciples who followed in his > footsteps, some of whom still walk the earth. It would be superfluous > and foolhardy on my part to test his external art, either against other > FMA systems or non-FMA systems, not to mention way beyond > my capabilities (smile when you agree with that one.) > > The internal art is a different story. It is our task to internalize the > art as much as we are able to, and if we have the gumption and > insight to do so, even modify, add, subtract to it without destroying > its essence, and even test it as often or as infrequently as we want to. > That is indeed the essence of being an arnisador, and his particular > martial arts quest. > > Jay de Leon > www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com > > > > > --- On Tue, 6/30/09, Federico Malibago > wrote: > > > From: Federico Malibago > Subject: [Eskrima] Art and the individual > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Tuesday, June 30, 2009, 1:06 AM > > > Given some of the turns of the thread, it begs to question further where does > FMA sit with the individual? What is the relationship of the two? Is it > external, so testing the art, the individual is only the means by which to > execute the art (e.g. substitute any individual in). Or is it internal, e.g. > instead of testing an art that is external to the individual (e.g. Modern > Arnis, Doce Pares, etc...), you are testing the individuals expression of a > personal art (e.g. the whole JKD thing). Particularly given systems named > after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external > mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own > expression of fighting? Or if it truly is always case of external art, as an > individual are you absolved from testing your art, since it can never truly be > yours? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. 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