Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 02:48:21 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #137 - 3 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re:Testing of Your Art (Mr KRS) 2. Re: Re:Testing of Your Art (Mike Casto) 3. NYC Pekiti-Tirsia & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar 7/26 (Richie Acosta) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 15:54:08 -0700 (PDT) From: Mr KRS Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re:Testing of Your Art To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike, I Agree with you 100% and hopefully my earlier posts have reflected that same sentiment. Al, I believe you may have misunderstood the last quote you took from me. In saying, "I think the problem with this is some FMA practitioners make changes to systems but still promote the original names of the system as if no changes were made", I am implying if you make changes to a system you have made it yours or at least altered the original in some way and the name should also be changed to reflect this. You can call it Floating Log Eskrima doesn't matter all that matters is you make the distinction between your interpetation of the system and the original. Regards, Karl R. Swass Martial Blade Concepts Damithurt Silat Sobadowan Eskrima “Do not conquer the world with force, for force only causes resistance. Thorns spring up when an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to be done without using violence.†Lao Tsu (Tao Te Ching) ________________________________ From: Al Sardinas To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:14:57 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Testing of Your Art Karl R Swass "Some may disagree because in the JKD mindset you "become" the art which is more or less the stance I take. The knife is an extension of me, the stick is an extension of me etc. We all know, or should know, there is no such thing as "the best system". At the end of the day it is all based on an individuals own capabilities and limitations." I can agree with the above statement but then your art would be limited by your own capabilities. Also there has been much discussion before on the "best system" so no need to start up another controversy. However, if a person had the opportunity to attend free of charge a college of his or her choice - Breezeby Community College or Harvard, what would be the choice? The answer depends on that person's education. Mike Casto "I would actually say that all that can *ever* be tested is oneself - and one's grasp of their art. IMO, there's no such thing as "Art X" is better than "Art Y." There is no "best" martial art. There might be a "best" one for me and a "best" one for someone else but they often won't be the same one." I can agree with 2 of the 4 sentences above. I can not agree with a "IMO.....There....art. Because as you indicated in your first sentence an individual's analysis is limited by their grasp of their art. Jay de Leon "(1) Assuming somebody does come up with the criteria, and you test the arts, how do you distinguish the arnisador and his style? Meaning, if a Sayoc guy goes up against an Inayan practitioner, are they testing each other as arnisadors, or are they testing their art? if the Inayan arnisador wins against the Sayoc guy, is it a valid conclusion that the Inayan style is superior to the Sayoc style?" The answers to your questions are that it depends on the test. If it's a simple test like fighting each other then the conclusion is based on the individual and not the system. If it is a sophisticated test that involves penetrations, economy of motion, speed, angles and other factors that do not depend on the individual itself then the conclusion is based on the system. "(2) Regarding testing FMA against other non-FMA arts, did you have a current event, tournament or similar occurence that would serve as a valid venue for the test? Assuming one does not currently exist, do you have a suggestion as to what that format might be?" Presently, I do not know of an event or tournament that would test the full spectrum of FMArts against other non-FMArts but maybe the Dog Brothers or some other organization can develop something. As far as a suggestion as to what the format would be is that my first suggestion is to obtain a consensus and blessing from all the major players of what it should be. . Federico Malibago "Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, and truly the practioners own expression of fighting?" My answer to that question - Day One. Mike Casto "Personally I think it's *always* the expression of the individual. The system of training is just a vehicle to get the individual to a particular destination. It's a method of helping the student find what they need.I make these distinctions in words: art = a group of systems, usually from a specific region and usually (though not always) sharing similarities in focus and training (i.e.: Kung Fu, Karate, FMA, Pentjak Silat) system = a specific curriculum style = an individual's expression of the material he's learned from the system/art" I agree with your distinctions and therefore I must correct my original subject from RE: Testing of Your Art to Testing of Your System. Karl R. Swass "I also believe a system becomes yours once you begin to alter it to fit your body type, limiitations, prefernces etc. By adding or removing techniques that do and do not work for you. I think the problem with this is some FMA practitioners make changes to systems but still promote the orginal names of the system as if no changes were made. Once you make major changes to the system it is no longer in it's original state and has been taylored to you therefore it is perfectly logical to say it is yours." I'ts alright to alter it to fit your body type and limitations, it may be alright to remove or add techniques but when you say it yours you better call it: John Doe's Original But Diluted and Maybe Screwed Up By my Own Fault FMA Respectfully, Al Sardinas Student of the Garimot System of Arnis _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 30 Jun 2009 17:27:08 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re:Testing of Your Art Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree completely. Only question I have about this - and I've given it quite a bit of thought without coming up with an answer I like - is: Where is the line? For instance, in our Sikal curriculum we start with the 12 angles from Balintawak and later we use some other angling systems (from Inosanto or Doce Pares primarily) depending on what we're doing. Now, if I decide to teach *everything* from the Balintawak 12 angles or maybe put together my own 12 angles and use it for all the drills (something I actually did for a while because I thought it would be easier on students). Is that change enough to constitute a re-label? Personally, I don't think so. My instructor told me that as far as he's concerned I can set up my own curriculum and teach it to my heart's content in my own classes. When I visit/teach at his school, of course, he expects me to know his curriculum and keep up with changes he's made but in my classes I can teach the material any way I want - including modifying, dropping, creating elements. If they are valid at a principle level and they fit within the conceptual framework he has defined as "Sikal" then it's Sikal. When I'm teaching something outside of that I cite my source (i.e.: I have some locking methodology from Shen Chuan so when I'm teaching that methodology in my classes I tell my students where I got it - which also implies that it's not specifically part of Sikal). So ... at what point of change in expression or whatever is a relabel required? If I swap a few angles around in the 12 angles and call it "Casto Combatives" then I think I fall into the category that Al was talking about where people change one thing simply so they can relabel it. It's a hard question to answer intellectually. The only conclusion I've reached at all is that it has to be a gut level thing. At some point I might look at what I'm doing and go, "You know, this isn't really Sikal anymore. Maybe I should relabel it." I don't think it would ever be a conscious decision on my part of, "Well, I've changed this, this and that so I'm going to make up a name for it." Mike Mr KRS wrote: > Mike, > > I Agree with you 100% and hopefully my earlier posts have reflected > that same sentiment. Al, I believe you may have misunderstood the last quote > you took from me. In saying, "I think the problem with this is some FMA > practitioners make changes to > systems but still promote the original names of > the system as if no > changes were made", I am implying if you make changes to a > system you have made it yours or at least altered the original in some way and > the name should also be changed to reflect this. You can call it Floating Log > Eskrima doesn't matter all that matters is you make the distinction between > your interpetation of the system and the original. > > Regards, > > > Karl R. Swass > Martial Blade Concepts > Damithurt Silat > Sobadowan Eskrima > > > > “Do not conquer > the world with force, for force only causes resistance. Thorns spring up when > an army passes. Years of misery follow a great victory. Do only what needs to > be done without using violence.†> > > Lao Tsu (Tao Te Ching) > ________________________________ > From: Al Sardinas > To: > eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 1:14:57 PM > Subject: [Eskrima] Re:Testing of Your Art > > Karl R Swass > "Some may disagree > because in the JKD mindset you "become" the art which is more or less the > stance I take. The knife is an extension of me, the stick is an extension of > me etc. We all know, or should know, there is no such thing as "the best > system". At the end of the day it is all based on an individuals own > capabilities and limitations." > > I can agree with the above statement but then > your art would be limited by your own capabilities. Also there has been much > discussion before on the "best system" so no need to start up another > controversy. However, if a person had the opportunity to attend free of charge > a college of his or her choice - Breezeby Community College or Harvard, what > would be the choice? The answer depends on that person's education. > > Mike > Casto > "I would actually say that all that can *ever* be tested is oneself - > and one's grasp of their art. IMO, there's no such thing as "Art X" is better > than "Art Y." There is > no "best" martial art. There might be a "best" one for > me and a "best" one for someone else but they often won't be the same one." > > I > can agree with 2 of the 4 sentences above. I can not agree with a > "IMO.....There....art. Because as you indicated in your first sentence an > individual's analysis is limited by their grasp of their art. > > Jay de Leon > "(1) Assuming somebody does come up with the criteria, and you test the arts, > how do you distinguish the arnisador and his style? Meaning, if a Sayoc guy > goes up against an Inayan practitioner, are they testing each other as > arnisadors, or are they testing their art? if the Inayan arnisador wins > against the Sayoc guy, is it a > valid conclusion that the Inayan style is > superior to the Sayoc style?" > > The answers to your questions are that it > depends on the test. If it's a simple test like fighting each other then the > conclusion is based on the individual and not the system. If it is a > sophisticated test that involves penetrations, economy of motion, speed, > angles and other factors that do not depend on the individual itself then the > conclusion is based on the system. > > "(2) Regarding testing FMA against other > non-FMA arts, did you have a current event, tournament or similar occurence > that would serve as a valid venue for the test? Assuming one does not > currently exist, do you have a suggestion as to what that format might be?" > Presently, I do not know of an event or tournament that would test the full > spectrum of FMArts against other non-FMArts but maybe the Dog Brothers or some > other organization can develop something. As far as a suggestion as to what > the format would be is that my first suggestion is to obtain a consensus and > blessing from all the major players of what it should be. . > > Federico Malibago > "Particularly given systems named after a famous founder, at what point does > the art cease to be, and external mother art, indpendent of the practioner, > and truly the practioners own expression of fighting?" > > My answer to that > question - Day One. > > Mike Casto > "Personally I think it's *always* the > expression of the individual. The system of training is just a vehicle to get > the individual to a particular destination. It's a method of helping the > student find what they need.I make these distinctions in words: art = a group > of systems, usually from a specific region and usually (though not always) > sharing similarities in focus and training (i.e.: Kung Fu, Karate, FMA, > Pentjak Silat) system = a specific curriculum style = an individual's > expression of the material he's learned from the system/art" > > I agree with > your distinctions and therefore I must correct my original subject from RE: > Testing of Your Art to Testing of Your System. > > Karl R. Swass > "I also believe > a system becomes yours once you begin to alter it to fit your body type, > limiitations, prefernces etc. By adding or removing techniques that > do and do > not work for you. I think the problem with this is some FMA practitioners make > changes to systems but still promote the orginal names of the system as if no > changes were made. Once you make major changes to the system it is no longer > in it's original state and has been taylored to you therefore it is perfectly > logical to say it is yours." > > I'ts alright to alter it to fit your body type > and limitations, it may be alright to remove or add techniques but when you > say it yours you better call it: > John Doe's Original But Diluted and Maybe > Screwed Up By my Own Fault FMA > > Respectfully, > Al Sardinas > Student of the > Garimot System of Arnis > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright > 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: "Richie Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wed, 1 Jul 2009 12:35:32 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] NYC Pekiti-Tirsia & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar 7/26 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pekiti Tirsia Intl. & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar Instructors: Tuhon Bill McGrath - Pekiti Tirsia International President/Chief Instructor Maestro Rico Acosta - Kuntaw Kali Kruzada Founder Seminar will cover: • SINGLE STICK • DOUBLE BASTON • ESPADA Y DAGA (SWORD AND DAGGER) • KNIFE TECHNIQUES • EMPTY HAND TECHNIQUES This seminar will provide a comparison of Filipino Kali techniques and applications as taught in Pekiti Tirsia International and Kuntaw Kali Kruzada respectively. All of the major aspects of Filipino Kali will be covered in this unique joint seminar with the heads of two internationally renowned systems of Filipino Martial Arts. Date: Sunday - July 26, 2009 Time: 12PM to 4PM Fee: $75 at the door $65 prepaid before July 15th (email kruzada@email.com for info) Location: Fighthouse 122 West 27th St. (between 6th and 7th Ave.) 2nd Floor Manhattan, NY Links: http://pekiti.com/ http://kuntawkali.com/ -- Be Yourself @ mail.com! Choose From 200+ Email Addresses Get a Free Account at www.mail.com --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest