Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 03:50:01 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #139 - 5 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Crappy Instructors (Federico Malibago) 2. Re: Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars (iPat) 3. Re: no "best" art? cant test the art? (gary hoptroff) 4. Re: Crappy Instructors (Mike Casto) 5. Re: no "best" art? cant test the art? (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 04:43:21 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Crappy Instructors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net As someone who has experienced crappy instructors first hand, and I gotta say, sadly the whole, well what if that is what you are looking for idea, doesnt really mesh with the crappy instructor. At least in my experience, these are the guys who promise the most, and give the least. The guys who claim to have done things, but of course cannot prove it, have no students who can prove it, and wont allow you to question it. These are the guys who's arts are too deadly ever to spar, who claim not to enter tournaments or anything that can show a chink in their training, because the rules are too biased. Sadly, I respect my son's TKD teacher far more than these guys. At least he never promised anything more than a fun way to exercise and learn more about Korean culture, and guess what he had olympic champs come out of his school. I dunno, I guess its my own experience that makes me like my current teacher when he said, fight of course you fight. You find every way you can to see if the skills you have trained come out. If your art is too deadly for the tournament, well fine, still compete but you should have lost because you got expelled for using your illegal deadly techniques, not because the other guy could dance around you hittin you at will with "inferior techniques". Real life or death is far more stressful than the comfy confines of a tournament with rules and safety gear, if the stress of that comfy safe environment is too much for your skill level, why do you expect to suddenly survive because now you can eye gouge or bite and use other non-tournament safe techniques. If you cant land or avoid a jab in a set of rules, why are you suddenly gonna survive and be able to implement an even more difficult technique once those rules dissappear? I guess, growin up in a Filipino community, saying I was a blackbelt or even just a martial artist meant I could fight. Anything less, would be considered a lie. Even today, at least amongst the Filipinos I know, saying I'm a black belt (e.g. martial artist or expert), is akin to saying I can kick butt and take names. Why would we promote any less of a standard in an art from our own culture? Then again, I suppose, I was born in the US, and perhaps the Filipinos I grew up with arent the norm, but I like the standard I grew up with, and respect the old men who expected this of me. Anyways, part of the reason I left the original question relatively vague, as in testing your art, was because I wanted to see what standards are out there amongst FMA practioners. I did not ask how do you know if the system you practice is the best, or if your system is the most effective. I simply asked as a practioner, what does testing mean to you, what standards do you have when you hear this question. I guess I wondered if I expect too much from FMA. I guess I wonder, if our ancestors of past waffled on the matters such as best tests of the intangible, whether or not one could truly embody the art, or if its a self expression or external expression. I would like to think they were more concerned about whether or not, they could survive against the unknown that has bad intentions towards them. Then again, like I said, I'm a Fil-Am, perhaps my family was just wierd in thinking a man with training should be able to stand up to the unknown and survive, particularly if that unknown has not spent time training. Sincerely Federico Malibago --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:08:18 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Theres a European event as well isnt there Marc? On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > Sorry if I come a bit late to this subject, but for those so inclined to > test themselves and their personal expression, the next Dog Brothers > Gathering of the Pack will be on September 20th. > http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/gathering.html  Please send in your > registration form in advance!  For additional conversation please see > http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1794.0 > To get a better sense of what might be entailed, please go to > http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html > and click on the relevant clips > > "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" (c) > Crafty Dog -- -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk http://twitter.com/ipat23 --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 00:32:49 -0700 (PDT) From: gary hoptroff Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Guys & Gals,   Come on I think it's all down to your physical ability, how well you understand your art your training, adapting the techniques/drills/methods so they work for you & you do need a techer that no the material. These sorts of points are always to open ended cause what works for a 5ft7 guy is not going to work for a 6ft5 guy.   Just enjoy your training, work hard & practice lots.   Look into what other people are doing MMA, Kali, Arnis, Muay Thai, BJJ, JKD, Eskrima, TKD, Karate, Judo or whatever may give you the edge to keep yourself safe, your loved ones & friends. Gary (UK) --- On Thu, 2/7/09, Mike Casto wrote: From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, 2 July, 2009, 2:38 AM It depends on what the person is looking for. For some people shopping center TKD is *exactly* what they want and need. "Good/better/best" is totally subjective. That's why there can't be one answer for everyone. Some people want and need the stuff you or I wouldn't touch ... but it's the "best" for that person. Ultimately it comes down to the overall dynamic between the student, instructor and material. Let's say, for example, that the best system for you is ... FMA (I know, it's a stretch :-D I'm guessing you had a good instructor. You probably got along with him good and he was skillful and a good instructor. You were a dedicated student and the material he taught you suited you. What if you had had a crappy instructor in the same system? Your system (a family system, right?) may not have any crappy instructors but some systems definitely do. Or what if you simply hadn't gotten along with your instructor? Or your instructor just wasn't very good at teaching? Or some combination of these? Chances are you wouldn't have trained for very long but even if you stuck it out you probably wouldn't have been as good as you are - even though the system you trained would have been the same. Make sense? Mike maurice gatdula wrote: > since when? > > someone said there is no best art, and no bad ones. but of course there are > best arts. what about shopping center tae kwon do vs kukkiwon tae kwon do? or > arnis in the province, vs arnis at "karate for kids". its up to the knowledge > base of the teacher and the amount and value of the techniques being taught. > so your a tough son of a gun at a mickey mouse karate school, but a regular > guy at a world class school with a strong, developed style will have more, > better tools and strategies to beat the big guy from TKD r Us. trust me, there > is nobody here that really believes that his art is not superior, i hope, at > least. if you are teaching or trying to master arts, no one is foolish enough > to study arts he things are not very good. this is why people cross train, to > make his art better isn't it? if not, why dont you just stick to your original > style and "train harder"? dont believe every clever saying you hear, my > brothers. > > things like "its not the style its the fighter" makes a little sense, because > sometimes, its true. but a teacher can add good observation and techniques to > a system that only has strikes kicks, and weak strategy and make it better. if > the teaching is weak, and the power mechanics is weak, this student can work > his butt off, but he is still training poor technique and poor style. the > bottom line is, some styles are not created the same. some founders knew what > they are doing, some did not. some earn respect because of their skill, some > earn it because they stayed alive long enough to get old. and not every old > master has good martial arts. just like not every muscular man is going to be > a good fighter. > > styles get better when the masters want to make them better. then they have to > test them to see if they are right, or if it needs more practice. testing arts > is like making good soup, you keep cooking and adding and tasting, and sooner > or later you have good soup (unless you are married to my ex wife). some > styles are throwed together, some came with a lot of changing, practice and > sparring. but you have to have the right things if an art is going to improve > through YOUR generation. > > a style has to have specialties. and what is a specialty but a group of > technique and skill that the founder *knows* will beat most opponents (he has > to know when it should be used, and what the weakness is), along with some > techniques that are just as good or not, but other students can use them to > defend themself. he done them thousands of times, and he is good at something > that most people are not. if there is nothing a master cant do better than > most people, he is no master, he is just some old guy been doing average > martial arts for a long time. they cant all be "champions of the philippines" > or suvivor of the death match. these are the same things as "i been in 500 > streetfights and one them all" of today. tough talk and fancy demos dont make > systems, only serious study, and years of practice and testing does. > > the style has to have strategy that the student can learn and use against > opponents. like, how to beat a stronger man, what about the different kinds of > fighters (brawlers, boxers, smotherers, etc.), or how to use the trap as > attack, how to take a stick while he is really trying to hit you. many styles > do not have strategy, only what if he does this or, what if he does that. > prearranged technique does not prepare students for fighting in realistic > timing. this is why i dont like most disarming, its not true disarming just > fight choreography. now make sure you stab me right, lol. > > the philosophy of a good style must be more than just "love your country/use > only for self defense/kill or be killed" bs. it has to give the student > guidance for his training and his thinking as a warrior. without good > philosophy, and art is only a skill, like basketball or shooting. the system, > has to have a way to teach even a beginner how to grow himself as a martial > artist, even if he quits your place in a year. > > and then finally, testing. there are four kinds of testing in the martial > arts: > 1. the new teacher has to develop his style, and try it out against many > opponents. they can be friends or enemies, in different gyms or in the > tournament. take your pick, but it has to be done. maybe you want to go from > dojo to dojo to challenge people (yeah right), but you cannot skiip this kind > of testing. the question is, do you do this to prove it to yourself? or prove > it to the community? the answer is, both. as a man, you have to prove it to > yourself that you can really fight, so when you talk to others (students, > teachers, or other fighters), you can look them in the eye, and talk the talk > like a man. as a teacher, you prove it to the community so your school will > have respect, and more than that, so that your students will have respect one > day when they decide they want to teach. > > 2. the new student has to test and spar as soon as he learns his basic skills. > soon as possible. if he quits in 6 months, at least you can know that this guy > will be able to defend himself and take care of business. if do not have this > confidence as a teacher, you are failing your students. even a beginner should > be able to knock a guy down in the street. but he will never feel confident > enough to use it, if he never did it before. as his teacher, you have the > responsibility to make sure he gets experience as soon as he learns his > basics. he won't be able to learn intermediate techniques, if he is afraid of > what he has not done. > > 3. you put your advance people to the fire as much as you can, and finally > before you qualify them as a teacher or expert. it is better to have them > test/spar on people who they do not know. hopefully with people that will not > treat them like brothers, only opponents. espcially when you are giving a > black belter exam. when you hold up your boys as teachers, you are saying to > the world, that this is best group of fighters i can put out, and i will put > my money on them, anytime, any place. if you cant make this kind of guarantee, > you shouldnt put anymore experts out there, we have too many "iffy" people out > here teaching. i have this confidence even in my advance students, and its > because they have been to this show many times. how many teachers out there > can say they never put a hurting on somebody, or ever been beatin in a match? > too many, thats how. as a teacher it is your duty to have only > fighters/teachers, that you have better confidence than even in >  your own skills. and it is not fair to them if you dont let them have that > experience. > > 4. your new teachers go out and test their skills on people, so they can have > their own experience and make new ideas and techniques. > > so, this is a circle, and this is how arts grow and get better. each > generation, the style should get better, more effective, more damaging, better > efficiency. if not, it will weaken. believe me, theres a lot of people who > break the circle, and they and there students are left holding inferior > martial arts. this is why we have some styles that are good, and some that are > not as good. some that are great, and some that are just sucks. > > > > > Visit my websites! > > www.typhoonma.comwww.filipinofightingsecretslive.com > Mabuhay! > > > --- On Mon, 6/29/09, eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net > wrote: > > From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net > > Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #134 - 3 msgs > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Monday, June 29, 2009, 5:48 PM > > Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to >     eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit >     http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to >     eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net > > You can reach the person managing the list at >     eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." > > > <<----   The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list   ---->> > > Serving the Internet since June 1994. > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > > The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. > 2700 members. > Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). > > See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine > for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com > > Mabuhay ang eskrima! > > > Today's Topics: > >    1. San Miguel Eskrima workshop in Greenlawn, N.Y. September 19 (Stephen > Lamade) >    2. Re: Testing Your Art (Al Sardinas) >    3. Re: Re: Testing Your Art (Mr KRS) > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 08:20:38 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Crappy Instructors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net The point is that not everyone is interested in fighting. There is a group of people who are - consciously or not - interested in getting a workout and *thinking* they can fight but who don't actually want to go through the effort & pain of learning to fight. For them a McDojo *is* the best place to train. Mike Federico Malibago wrote: > As someone who has experienced crappy instructors first hand, and I gotta say, sadly the whole, well what if that is what you are looking for idea, doesnt really mesh with the crappy instructor. At least in my experience, these are the guys who promise the most, and give the least. The guys who claim to have done things, but of course cannot prove it, have no students who can prove it, and wont allow you to question it. These are the guys who's arts are too deadly ever to spar, who claim not to enter tournaments or anything that can show a chink in their training, because the rules are too biased. Sadly, I respect my son's TKD teacher far more than these guys. At least he never promised anything more than a fun way to exercise and learn more about Korean culture, and guess what he had olympic champs come out of his school. > > I dunno, I guess its my own experience that makes me like my current teacher when he said, fight of course you fight. You find every way you can to see if the skills you have trained come out. If your art is too deadly for the tournament, well fine, still compete but you should have lost because you got expelled for using your illegal deadly techniques, not because the other guy could dance around you hittin you at will with "inferior techniques". Real life or death is far more stressful than the comfy confines of a tournament with rules and safety gear, if the stress of that comfy safe environment is too much for your skill level, why do you expect to suddenly survive because now you can eye gouge or bite and use other non-tournament safe techniques. If you cant land or avoid a jab in a set of rules, why are you suddenly gonna survive and be able to implement an even more difficult technique once those rules dissappear? > > I guess, growin up in a Filipino community, saying I was a blackbelt or even just a martial artist meant I could fight. Anything less, would be considered a lie. Even today, at least amongst the Filipinos I know, saying I'm a black belt (e.g. martial artist or expert), is akin to saying I can kick butt and take names. Why would we promote any less of a standard in an art from our own culture? Then again, I suppose, I was born in the US, and perhaps the Filipinos I grew up with arent the norm, but I like the standard I grew up with, and respect the old men who expected this of me. > > Anyways, part of the reason I left the original question relatively vague, as in testing your art, was because I wanted to see what standards are out there amongst FMA practioners. I did not ask how do you know if the system you practice is the best, or if your system is the most effective. I simply asked as a practioner, what does testing mean to you, what standards do you have when you hear this question. I guess I wondered if I expect too much from FMA. > > I guess I wonder, if our ancestors of past waffled on the matters such as best tests of the intangible, whether or not one could truly embody the art, or if its a self expression or external expression. I would like to think they were more concerned about whether or not, they could survive against the unknown that has bad intentions towards them. Then again, like I said, I'm a Fil-Am, perhaps my family was just wierd in thinking a man with training should be able to stand up to the unknown and survive, particularly if that unknown has not spent time training. > > Sincerely > Federico Malibago > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:38:06 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net yes.  something like, for every josephine, there is a napoleon, or was it the other way around? --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Mike Casto wrote: From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 6:38 PM It depends on what the person is looking for. For some people shopping center TKD is *exactly* what they want and need. "Good/better/best" is totally subjective. That's why there can't be one answer for everyone. Some people want and need the stuff you or I wouldn't touch ... but it's the "best" for that person. Ultimately it comes down to the overall dynamic between the student, instructor and material. Let's say, for example, that the best system for you is ... FMA (I know, it's a stretch :-D I'm guessing you had a good instructor. You probably got along with him good and he was skillful and a good instructor. You were a dedicated student and the material he taught you suited you. What if you had had a crappy instructor in the same system? Your system (a family system, right?) may not have any crappy instructors but some systems definitely do. Or what if you simply hadn't gotten along with your instructor? Or your instructor just wasn't very good at teaching? Or some combination of these? Chances are you wouldn't have trained for very long but even if you stuck it out you probably wouldn't have been as good as you are - even though the system you trained would have been the same. Make sense? Mike > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest