Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:29:01 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #140 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Crappy Instructors (Henrik Horneber) 2. Re: Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars (Ruel Apostol) 3. Re: no "best" art? cant test the art? (Mike Casto) 4. Re: federico and mike c. (maurice gatdula) 5. Re: federico and mike c part 2 (maurice gatdula) 6. Testing your Art, the DB approach, part 3 (Marc Denny) 7. Re: Re: federico and mike c part 2 (Mike Casto) 8. testing the art with DB (Eskrima Digest) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 19:06:22 +0200 From: Henrik Horneber To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Crappy Instructors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mike Casto schrieb: > There is a > group of people who are - consciously or not - interested in getting a > workout and *thinking* they can fight but who don't actually want to go > through the effort & pain of learning to fight. For them a McDojo *is* > the best place to train. > And there is a group of people that are interested in their own security [1] who are probably better off [2] going to a class on safe driving than learning how to fight. You got to see the whole picture. [1] in the sense of 'no harm to their body' [2] in the sense of an economical investment of time, energy and money Henrik > Mike > > > > Federico Malibago wrote: >> As someone who has experienced crappy instructors first hand, and I gotta > say, sadly the whole, well what if that is what you are looking for idea, > doesnt really mesh with the crappy instructor. At least in my experience, > these are the guys who promise the most, and give the least. The guys who > claim to have done things, but of course cannot prove it, have no > students who > can prove it, and wont allow you to question it. These are the guys who's > arts are too deadly ever to spar, who claim not to enter tournaments or > anything that can show a chink in their training, because the rules are too > biased. Sadly, I respect my son's TKD teacher far more than these > guys. At > least he never promised anything more than a fun way to exercise and learn > more about Korean culture, and guess what he had olympic champs come out of > his school. >> >> I dunno, I guess its my own experience that makes me like my current >> teacher > when he said, fight of course you fight. You find every way you can to > see if > the skills you have trained come out. If your art is too deadly for the > tournament, well fine, still compete but you should have lost because > you got > expelled for using your illegal deadly techniques, not because the other > guy > could dance around you hittin you at will with "inferior techniques". Real > life or death is far more stressful than the comfy confines of a tournament > with rules and safety gear, if the stress of that comfy safe environment is > too much for your skill level, why do you expect to suddenly survive > because > now you can eye gouge or bite and use other non-tournament safe techniques. > If you cant land or avoid a jab in a set of rules, why are you suddenly > gonna > survive and be able to implement an even more difficult technique once > those > rules dissappear? >> >> I guess, growin up in a Filipino community, saying I was a blackbelt >> or even > just a martial artist meant I could fight. Anything less, would be > considered > a lie. Even today, at least amongst the Filipinos I know, saying I'm a > black > belt (e.g. martial artist or expert), is akin to saying I can kick butt and > take names. Why would we promote any less of a standard in an art from our > own culture? Then again, I suppose, I was born in the US, and perhaps the > Filipinos I grew up with arent the norm, but I like the standard I grew up > with, and respect the old men who expected this of me. >> >> Anyways, part of the reason I left the original question relatively >> vague, > as in testing your art, was because I wanted to see what standards are out > there amongst FMA practioners. I did not ask how do you know if the system > you practice is the best, or if your system is the most effective. I > simply > asked as a practioner, what does testing mean to you, what standards do you > have when you hear this question. I guess I wondered if I expect too much > from FMA. >> >> I guess I wonder, if our ancestors of past waffled on the matters such as > best tests of the intangible, whether or not one could truly embody the > art, > or if its a self expression or external expression. I would like to think > they were more concerned about whether or not, they could survive > against the > unknown that has bad intentions towards them. Then again, like I said, > I'm a > Fil-Am, perhaps my family was just wierd in thinking a man with training > should be able to stand up to the unknown and survive, particularly if that > unknown has not spent time training. >> >> Sincerely >> Federico Malibago >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:50:36 -0700 (PDT) From: Ruel Apostol Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi! Any schedules in the Illinois area soon? Thank you! ________________________________ From: Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, July 1, 2009 5:58:23 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars Woof All: Sorry if I come a bit late to this subject, but for those so inclined to test themselves and their personal expression, the next Dog Brothers Gathering of the Pack will be on September 20th. http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/gathering.html Please send in your registration form in advance! For additional conversation please see http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1794.0 To get a better sense of what might be entailed, please go to http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html and click on the relevant clips "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" (c) Crafty Dog PS: My seminar in the Fort Hood TX area on August 1-2 apparently is filling up quickly, as is the joint seminar with Sled Dog, Top Dog and me in Toronto Aug 21-23. See http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/seminars.html for contact info and see the relevant threads on our forum at http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?board=1.0 for additional info. _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:59:46 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net LOL. Yup. And even if we're strictly talking about "fighting" arts then that, at least in my head, rules out any that *aren't* (including the ones that think they are). Even at that level, you've got people who prefer Muay Thai and people who prefer Silat and people who prefer FMA etc. What suits one person and works well for them won't necessarily work well for someone else. Therefore there can't be one "best" martial art for everyone. Every system has people in it who aren't great fighters. In a fight it ultimately boils down to who is the best at using the tools they have. Period. Like I said, it's the dynamic of the whole thing - the individual, his/her training & instructor. It all ties together and in a fight all of those factors will come out. It's impossible to isolate the system/art from the individual so it's impossible to test "system vs. system" ... the systems can't actually fight. Also, just because Joe Schmo beats me today doesn't mean he's a better fighter than me (though he might be). All it means is that he beat me today. Tomorrow, who knows? Joe might have just gotten lucky when he beat me today so tomorrow I'll likely beat him. Even if Joe *is* better than me I might get lucky tomorrow. And if I can't beat Joe it just means I wasn't as good with my tools *in that fight* as he was. The next fight will be totally different. Maybe a different terrain or different weapons or maybe the only difference is that we're both in different moods than we were previously. Even if he beats me in a hundred fights it doesn't mean his training is better than mine. It might mean he has trained longer/harder but him beating me doesn't, in and of itself, mean his system is any better than mine. Can he beat everyone in my system? That's a slightly better indicator. Can every person in his system beat everyone in my system (of equivalent experience levels, of course)? If so then maybe it could be said that system is better. But such a situation is almost impossible just because of Murphy's Law. At some point in all those fights Murphy will play his tricks against the guys from Joe's system. It's practically a guarantee. Ultimately, all a single fight can *ever* prove is who was better or luckier in that one fight. Mike jay de leon wrote: > yes. something like, for every josephine, there > is a napoleon, or was it the other way around? > > --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Mike Casto wrote: > > > From: Mike Casto > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 6:38 PM > > > It depends on what the person is looking for. For some people shopping > center TKD is *exactly* what they want and need. > > "Good/better/best" is totally subjective. That's why there can't be one > answer for everyone. Some people want and need the stuff you or I > wouldn't touch ... but it's the "best" for that person. > > Ultimately it comes down to the overall dynamic between the student, > instructor and material. Let's say, for example, that the best system > for you is ... FMA (I know, it's a stretch :-D I'm guessing you had a > good instructor. You probably got along with him good and he was > skillful and a good instructor. You were a dedicated student and the > material he taught you suited you. > > What if you had had a crappy instructor in the same system? Your system > (a family system, right?) may not have any crappy instructors but some > systems definitely do. Or what if you simply hadn't gotten along with > your instructor? Or your instructor just wasn't very good at teaching? > Or some combination of these? > > Chances are you wouldn't have trained for very long but even if you > stuck it out you probably wouldn't have been as good as you are - even > though the system you trained would have been the same. > > Make sense? > > Mike > > > > >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >> > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:11:48 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i dont think the standard of black belt changed for the rest of the world. its just that in the business of martial arts, people lower the expectation of the black belter so that more people can get it. this hurts the martial artist, all of us, even the real ones, because it lowers everybodys opinion of what a black belter is. so, the response when you admit to somebody, that you are a martial artist, he will say, oh yeah, so is my 10 year old kid. this is one reason why i like the tournament, and i like the freelance martial artist.... the guys who dont go to school, but they know a little of this and little of that and train a lot. the same guys who come to your school wanting to spar. you see, they know where they can get away with it, and where they cannot. they keep the mcdojos afriad that one day, one will come through their doors. or one day, a student will go to a tournament and see better schools. this is why some schools hold the own tournment.   they are not all that bad, though, i actually have a couple guys who bounced around for 10 years, and now they train with me (one is my assistant instructor).   but, federico, the black belt is SUPPOSED to mean, you can kick butt and take names. only on the forums is when i heard somebody say, black belt is the beginning... uh, yeah, of a new "master club membership!" black belt i supposed to be the expert status, but if somebody got it in 2 years at McScrima r Us, then i guess it would be the beginning.   mike i want to say something about "good fit" for styles and teachers.   imagine your 10 year old son comes home, and says, dad, my report card is C's, because i dont like the school teaching style and me and my teacher, dont get alone. how do you handle this? let him transfer? of course you look into it, but probably, you will smack him in the head and say, study, do your homework, pay attention in class. make straight A and then we will talk about good fit.   for a beginning student to say, this style is no good, the school wasnt that good, the teacher is no good (or not a good fit), is the reason why so many martial artist are weak. they take too much control on his own training, and the teaching is no longer, teacher-student, it becomes business-customer. i am the customer, teach me some of those fancy drills the black belters are doing. i am the customer, 50 push ups is too much (in my seminar days, i had a TEACHER tell me dont have the students do 50). the "fit/get along" thing imo is a cop out for bad skill or quitting. okay so some serious student ends up in a mickey mouse school, and moves. no problem. but how many moves before the student gets blame for his skill?   i agree that the mcdojo has its place. i always say, we cant all be at the top of the food chain, some of the schools have to be the food.   but when i talk martial arts, i am talking about people who want the real thing, not day care, not jazzercise--excuse me, tae bo--not just add water mcGuroship.   Visit my websites! www.typhoonma.com www.filipinofightingsecretslive.com Mabuhay! --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 17:18:54 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c part 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net just remembered (i hit send and forgot my point) i did not have all good teachers. one of my teachers was a gangster/drug dealer. one was ex-con. none of them fit the "good teacher" belief. but i learned from them, and they are good at what they do. passing martial arts is more simple than people think it is. one of my teachers, in taiwan, didnt even speak english or tagalog, he only spoke chinese, and i spoke 9 year old chinese. if a person knows what he is doing, you can learn... you are going to learn... if you train long enough. so you not going to get lectures and fancy terms and names. maybe he doesnt explain it as good as your math teacher can. but what he knows, he knows. and only a lazy student is not going to put in the work to learn from a fighter-teacher. and he loses because he is not looking for someone who is teaching him to fight, but he is looking for certification and education. some of our best fighters (martial arts and boxing) come from uneducated, non-intelligent teachers. so they dont explain concepts very good. but a good fighter can teach you that, fighting, like a PHD. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 16:42:50 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Testing your Art, the DB approach, part 3 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Pat: Quite right! http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1858.0 Yip! Roadkill Dog! > Message: 2 > Date: Thu, 2 Jul 2009 10:08:18 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Testing your Art, the DB approach; seminars > From: iPat > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > > Theres a European event as well isnt there Marc? > > On Wed, Jul 1, 2009 at 11:58 PM, Marc Denny > wrote: >> Woof All: >> >> Sorry if I come a bit late to this subject, but for those so inclined to >> test themselves and their personal expression, the next Dog Brothers >> Gathering of the Pack will be on September 20th. >> http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/gathering.html Please send in your >> registration form in advance! For additional conversation please see >> http://dogbrothers.com/phpBB2/index.php?topic=1794.0 >> To get a better sense of what might be entailed, please go to >> http://www.dogbrothers.com/pages/multimedia.html >> and click on the relevant clips >> >> "Higher Consciousness through Harder Contact" (c) >> Crafty Dog --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 18:42:34 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c part 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I totally meant "good at what they do and good at communicating it" ... some "good instructors" are schmucks as people. Many are good people who've lived a rough life. Mike maurice gatdula wrote: > just remembered (i hit send and forgot my point) > > i did not have all good teachers. one of my teachers was a gangster/drug dealer. one was ex-con. none of them fit the "good teacher" belief. but i learned from them, and they are good at what they do. passing martial arts is more simple than people think it is. one of my teachers, in taiwan, didnt even speak english or tagalog, he only spoke chinese, and i spoke 9 year old chinese. if a person knows what he is doing, you can learn... you are going to learn... if you train long enough. so you not going to get lectures and fancy terms and names. maybe he doesnt explain it as good as your math teacher can. but what he knows, he knows. and only a lazy student is not going to put in the work to learn from a fighter-teacher. and he loses because he is not looking for someone who is teaching him to fight, but he is looking for certification and education. > > some of our best fighters (martial arts and boxing) come from uneducated, non-intelligent teachers. so they dont explain concepts very good. but a good fighter can teach you that, fighting, like a PHD. > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Thu, 02 Jul 2009 23:53:13 -0700 From: Eskrima Digest Organization: maelstrom Core To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] testing the art with DB Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Marc threw down that the Dog Brothers' Gathering is coming up (September). That's one way to test what you have. That may or may not be seen as the *the* way to test the art (or the practitioner). But it is certainly my way. Dog Brothers (our Sunday class) has been for me the crucible in which I test almost everything I learn and teach in all my arts - pencak silat, krabi krabong, grappling, as well as kali. DB (for me) is not the art but the expression of the art. And, as true as sigung Lee's vision of JKD, DB provides a path that the kalista can walk fruitfully without dictating the destination (or even which foot goes where or how to hit with a stick). And in good company too. Of course, DB doesn't encompass everything that is relevant to testing an art (or the practitioner) - there are certain ways the DB fights diverge from some ultimate reality. I'm not sure I need to go there in any case. Regardless I am forever grateful to my teachers Philip and Marc for the gift of harder contact. NOTE: Canadian Dog Brothers camp (featuring Top Dog, Crafty Dog and Sled Dog) Aug. 21-23 in Toronto!! See www.dogbrothers.ca -- maelstrom \ Loki Jorgenson martial _ \ Pekiti-Tirsia kali loki@maelstromcore.com arts / O_/ Dog Brothers MA www.maelstromcore.com \ Inosanto Academy (604) 250-4642 \ silat Jati Wisesa --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest