Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:16:00 +0200 From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #142 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Re: federico and mike c. (Beikoku Fighter) 2. Re: Crappy Instructors (Mike Casto) 3. Always a student (Ray) 4. Re: Always a student (realitycombat) 5. Fun 4th (Ray) 6. RE: Re: federico and mike c. (mark@mntalent.com) 7. Re: no "best" art? cant test the art? (jay de leon) 8. Re: Re: federico and mike c. (Mike Casto) 9. Re: no "best" art? cant test the art? (Mike Casto) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 16:28:56 -0700 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c. From: Beikoku Fighter To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Saying a BB is the beginning means that they are a forever student. If it was the end then that would mean that they stopped learning. Though I do agree that what a BB used to mean is very differant that what it means today. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:11 PM, maurice gatdula wrote: > > but, federico, the black belt is SUPPOSED to mean, you can kick butt and > take > names. only on the forums is when i heard somebody say, black belt is the > beginning... uh, yeah, of a new "master club membership!" black belt i > supposed to be the expert status, > > > Visit my websites! > > www.typhoonma.com > www.filipinofightingsecretslive.com > > Mabuhay! > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 16:16:21 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Crappy Instructors Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I agree. I have no problem with people teaching or training in whatever they want. I do have a problem with someone teaching what amounts to aerobics and claiming to teach self-defense or fighting or whatever. I think the analogy to medical school is a little extreme. The most these McDojo black belts are likely to do is to teach. They're not going to perform open heart surgery. I had a crappy instructor when I was a kid and I've met several others over the years. People who, like you say, probably learned what they know from watching some videos and sending their check in. Unfortunately, many of these types are also good at business and marketing which means they attract a lot of students. I have a philosophy, though, that in the martial arts everyone ends up with the instructor/system/art they *earn*. People may (and often do) have false starts because there is quite a bit of crap out there. If people keep their eyes & ears open, though, at some point they'll realize that the guy is a quack (either by that instructor's actions/words or by encountering people from other schools and realizing that this guy is missing something). That's why so many crap instructors discourage their students from getting exposed to any other instructors or whatever. At some point, though, one way or another, the crap instructor will tip his hand. At that point the student has a choice. They can either pay attention to their perception and leave or they can put on blinders and keep training with the person. In this way I think that, in the long run, *every* student ends up with the instructor they *earn* by action or inaction. Mike Federico Malibago wrote: > I guess I just have a dilema with McDojo's claimin to teach their students fighting. Of course every now and then a fighter can pop out of one, due to his own sheer innate skill, but places pumpin out 10 yr old black belts this is the abhoration rather than the norm. Now like I said before, if a McDojo wants to teach their students a cultural expression, a fun way to get fit and in shape, a social place, a place to lock up an hour of your kids time, etc... Fine and dandy. > > But for crappy teachers (when I say crappy I do not mean articulate or not I mean crappy in the sense that they got their black belt by watchin 2 tapes, and mailin in their $150, and have fought only in their fantasies), there are quite a large number who do promise their students that they will become a ninja in a week. Will be able to take on any surly biker 3 times bigger than them. That hard work and physical fitness is less important than thinking about fighting. Testing what they learned is impossible because surely people will die. On an on. And well surprise surprise, some of these guy's students get it into their head that yes, this guy is tellin me the truth, and I will pick that fight with a person I have no business ever messing with. To me, that is just pure dangerousness. > > I guess saying that some people like this, strikes me in the same way as me sayin its alright if some people go to crappy fake medical schools to get MDs, as long as they like getting false information about medicine. Would you want that guy out there practicin medicine holdin himself out as a medical doctor? Or workin on you? > > Sincerely > Federico Malibago > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 17:07:04 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Always a student Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net One of my favorite lines is... sometimes a teacher, but always a student. Kinda helps keep the ego in check. Ray --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 19:16:39 -0500 (GMT-05:00) From: realitycombat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Always a student Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net well said. -----Original Message----- >From: Ray >Sent: Jul 3, 2009 7:07 PM >To: Eskrima-Digest >Subject: [Eskrima] Always a student > >One of my favorite lines is... sometimes a teacher, but always a >student. > >Kinda helps keep the ego in check. > >Ray >_______________________________________________ >Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >Standard disclaimers apply >Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ________________________________________ PeoplePC Online A better way to Internet http://www.peoplepc.com --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Fri, 3 Jul 2009 18:28:24 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Fun 4th Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hope everyone in the USA has a safe and fun 4th. Please remember those who have and are currently fighting for our freedom and independence Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 21:48:06 -0400 From: mark@mntalent.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I remember talking to a dad who got his black belt with his two kids (2 years). At that time he was talking another art and progressing quickly towards black belt as well. He also mentioned that his instructor told him black belt your first black belt is "just the beginning". Sadly, the McDojo black belts have made a many false egos and given confidence to those who maybe should have avoided that back alley but instead they venture forth with the confidence their school has given them by sewing their name on their belt and pimping their gi with a thousand stripes and merit badges. "honey, we are running late for the show but smugglers alley is a short cut so lets take it, we will be safe cuz these guys with pipes and knives will take one look at my black belt club patch and clear the way!" Ok, so most of us will argue that it's the man wearing the belt not the art that is to blame. I will add this to that argument; if you take 50 students and they all look stiff and random, cannot or will not spar, do not enter tournaments, and their super deadly techniques fail cuz you are striking too hard, wrong angle, wrong speed whatever then their art or instructor plain sucks. If your kid tells you he wants' to play golf or tennis what do you do? Do you throw darts at the phone book and figure any guy with a "pro" next to his name is going to make little Billy a sports superstar? No, you want to see if this person can actually teach and what has he produced. Do you want Billy to spend 5 years on the driving range or hitting balls back over the net? Nonsense, you want his ass on the course or court learning how the game is played and refining the game on the practice area. Of course Billy may be better suited to playing Magic Cards or D&D and have no business trying any individual or team sports but the point is how the heck can you expect a guy who is sloppy, fat and unproven to really give yourself... or worse.... give your little Billy the skillz to kick ass and be confident for real. Anyway, I'm late for my D&D/Magic Card tournament...I'm a level 85 Ninja Paladin now so I can't be late or they will take a stripe off my belt :) Cheers and have a great 4th! -Mark Basel -----Original Message----- From: Beikoku Fighter [mailto:beikokufighter@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, July 03, 2009 6:29 PM To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c. Saying a BB is the beginning means that they are a forever student. If it was the end then that would mean that they stopped learning. Though I do agree that what a BB used to mean is very differant that what it means today. On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:11 PM, maurice gatdula wrote: > > but, federico, the black belt is SUPPOSED to mean, you can kick butt and > take > names. only on the forums is when i heard somebody say, black belt is the > beginning... uh, yeah, of a new "master club membership!" black belt i > supposed to be the expert status, > > > Visit my websites! > > www.typhoonma.com > www.filipinofightingsecretslive.com > > Mabuhay! > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sat, 4 Jul 2009 03:21:28 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i agree with your total analysis.  the only kicker is, in a lethal confrontation, it is literally a sudden-death game.  you better bring all your skills, luck and gulang in that one confrontation, because chances are, there ain't gonna be a rematch.   jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Mike Casto wrote: From: Mike Casto Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 4:59 PM LOL. Yup. And even if we're strictly talking about "fighting" arts then that, at least in my head, rules out any that *aren't* (including the ones that think they are). Even at that level, you've got people who prefer Muay Thai and people who prefer Silat and people who prefer FMA etc. What suits one person and works well for them won't necessarily work well for someone else. Therefore there can't be one "best" martial art for everyone. Every system has people in it who aren't great fighters. In a fight it ultimately boils down to who is the best at using the tools they have. Period. Like I said, it's the dynamic of the whole thing - the individual, his/her training & instructor. It all ties together and in a fight all of those factors will come out. It's impossible to isolate the system/art from the individual so it's impossible to test "system vs. system" ... the systems can't actually fight. Also, just because Joe Schmo beats me today doesn't mean he's a better fighter than me (though he might be). All it means is that he beat me today. Tomorrow, who knows? Joe might have just gotten lucky when he beat me today so tomorrow I'll likely beat him. Even if Joe *is* better than me I might get lucky tomorrow. And if I can't beat Joe it just means I wasn't as good with my tools *in that fight* as he was. The next fight will be totally different. Maybe a different terrain or different weapons or maybe the only difference is that we're both in different moods than we were previously. Even if he beats me in a hundred fights it doesn't mean his training is better than mine. It might mean he has trained longer/harder but him beating me doesn't, in and of itself, mean his system is any better than mine. Can he beat everyone in my system? That's a slightly better indicator. Can every person in his system beat everyone in my system (of equivalent experience levels, of course)? If so then maybe it could be said that system is better. But such a situation is almost impossible just because of Murphy's Law. At some point in all those fights Murphy will play his tricks against the guys from Joe's system. It's practically a guarantee. Ultimately, all a single fight can *ever* prove is who was better or luckier in that one fight. Mike jay de leon wrote: > yes.  something like, for every josephine, there > is a napoleon, or was it the other way around? > > --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Mike Casto wrote: > > > From: Mike Casto > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 6:38 PM > > > It depends on what the person is looking for. For some people shopping > center TKD is *exactly* what they want and need. > > "Good/better/best" is totally subjective. That's why there can't be one > answer for everyone. Some people want and need the stuff you or I > wouldn't touch ... but it's the "best" for that person. > > Ultimately it comes down to the overall dynamic between the student, > instructor and material. Let's say, for example, that the best system > for you is ... FMA (I know, it's a stretch :-D I'm guessing you had a > good instructor. You probably got along with him good and he was > skillful and a good instructor. You were a dedicated student and the > material he taught you suited you. > > What if you had had a crappy instructor in the same system? Your system > (a family system, right?) may not have any crappy instructors but some > systems definitely do. Or what if you simply hadn't gotten along with > your instructor? Or your instructor just wasn't very good at teaching? > Or some combination of these? > > Chances are you wouldn't have trained for very long but even if you > stuck it out you probably wouldn't have been as good as you are - even > though the system you trained would have been the same. > > Make sense? > > Mike > > > >    >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >>      > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Fri, 03 Jul 2009 17:35:14 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: federico and mike c. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Yup. I agree completely. Mike Beikoku Fighter wrote: > Saying a BB is the beginning means that they are a forever student. If it > was the end then that would mean that they stopped learning. Though I do > agree that what a BB used to mean is very differant that what it means > today. > > On Thu, Jul 2, 2009 at 5:11 PM, maurice gatdula wrote: > > >> but, federico, the black belt is SUPPOSED to mean, you can kick butt and >> take >> names. only on the forums is when i heard somebody say, black belt is the >> beginning... uh, yeah, of a new "master club membership!" black belt i >> supposed to be the expert status, >> >> >> Visit my websites! >> >> www.typhoonma.com >> www.filipinofightingsecretslive.com >> >> Mabuhay! >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >> > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 9 Date: Sat, 04 Jul 2009 07:17:13 -0700 From: Mike Casto To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Couldn't agree more, Jay, but even if I die it ultimately just means that he was better or luckier than me *in that fight.* It doesn't give any more than a *very* shaky hint that his system or training might have been better than mine. Mike jay de leon wrote: > i agree with your total analysis. the only kicker is, > in a lethal confrontation, it is literally a sudden-death > game. you better bring all your skills, luck and gulang > in that one confrontation, because chances are, there > ain't gonna be a rematch. > > jay de leon > www.tipunan.com > > --- On Thu, 7/2/09, Mike Casto wrote: > > > From: Mike Casto > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? > To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Date: Thursday, July 2, 2009, 4:59 PM > > > LOL. Yup. > > And even if we're strictly talking about "fighting" arts then that, at least > in my head, rules out any that *aren't* (including the ones that think they > are). > > Even at that level, you've got people who prefer Muay Thai and people who > prefer Silat and people who prefer FMA etc. > > What suits one person and works well for them won't necessarily work well for > someone else. Therefore there can't be one "best" martial art for everyone. > > Every system has people in it who aren't great fighters. > > In a fight it ultimately boils down to who is the best at using the tools they > have. Period. > > Like I said, it's the dynamic of the whole thing - the individual, his/her > training & instructor. It all ties together and in a fight all of those > factors will come out. It's impossible to isolate the system/art from the > individual so it's impossible to test "system vs. system" ... the systems > can't actually fight. > > Also, just because Joe Schmo beats me today doesn't mean he's a better fighter > than me (though he might be). All it means is that he beat me today. Tomorrow, > who knows? > > Joe might have just gotten lucky when he beat me today so tomorrow I'll likely > beat him. Even if Joe *is* better than me I might get lucky tomorrow. And if I > can't beat Joe it just means I wasn't as good with my tools *in that fight* as > he was. The next fight will be totally different. Maybe a different terrain or > different weapons or maybe the only difference is that we're both in different > moods than we were previously. > > Even if he beats me in a hundred fights it doesn't mean his training is better > than mine. It might mean he has trained longer/harder but him beating me > doesn't, in and of itself, mean his system is any better than mine. Can he > beat everyone in my system? That's a slightly better indicator. Can every > person in his system beat everyone in my system (of equivalent experience > levels, of course)? If so then maybe it could be said that system is better. > But such a situation is almost impossible just because of Murphy's Law. At > some point in all those fights Murphy will play his tricks against the guys > from Joe's system. It's practically a guarantee. > > Ultimately, all a single fight can *ever* prove is who was better or luckier > in that one fight. > > Mike > > > > > jay de leon wrote: > >> yes. something like, for every josephine, there >> is a napoleon, or was it the other way around? >> >> --- On Wed, 7/1/09, Mike Casto wrote: >> >> >> From: Mike Casto >> Subject: Re: [Eskrima] no "best" art? cant test the art? >> To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Date: Wednesday, July 1, 2009, 6:38 PM >> >> >> It depends on what the person is looking for. For some people shopping >> center TKD is *exactly* what they want and need. >> >> "Good/better/best" is totally subjective. That's why there can't be one >> answer for everyone. Some people want and need the stuff you or I >> wouldn't touch ... but it's the "best" for that person. >> >> Ultimately it comes down to the overall dynamic between the student, >> instructor and material. Let's say, for example, that the best system >> for you is ... FMA (I know, it's a stretch :-D I'm guessing you had a >> good instructor. You probably got along with him good and he was >> skillful and a good instructor. You were a dedicated student and the >> material he taught you suited you. >> >> What if you had had a crappy instructor in the same system? Your system >> (a family system, right?) may not have any crappy instructors but some >> systems definitely do. Or what if you simply hadn't gotten along with >> your instructor? Or your instructor just wasn't very good at teaching? >> Or some combination of these? >> >> Chances are you wouldn't have trained for very long but even if you >> stuck it out you probably wouldn't have been as good as you are - even >> though the system you trained would have been the same. >> >> Make sense? >> >> Mike >> >> >> >> >> >>> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >>> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >>> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >>> Standard disclaimers apply >>> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >>> >>> >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >> _______________________________________________ >> Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members >> Eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource >> Standard disclaimers apply >> Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net >> > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest