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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Wed Jul 22 15:59:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6MKxi817458 for ; Wed, 22 Jul 2009 15:59:44 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id C36ECB281E1; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:20:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 01:19:01 +0200 Message-ID: <20090722231901.27106.22304.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #157 - 8 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Cacoy Canete seminar (California Eskrima) 2. Training in the PI verses training in the West (Julian Gilmour) 3. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (Tyler Murphy) 4. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (Ray) 5. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (Jonathan Kessler) 6. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (Ray) 7. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West - to jullian (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 20:56:48 -0700 From: California Eskrima To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Cacoy Canete seminar Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net forwarding... ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Tue, Jul 21, 2009 at 12:32 PM To: california.eskrima@gmail.com Fellow Eskrimadors: If you have a demo team or would like to be involved in the tribute to the Grandmaster, please call Mark ASAP at 818.996.7180 or send him an email at mark-parra@sbcglobal.net and leave your name and telephone number. The tribute is Saturday, August 8th from 4:00-6:00pm. Dinner is from 6:00-8:00pm. Please RSVP before August 6th. Looking forward to seeing all of you there. Mark Parra --__--__-- Message: 2 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:11:53 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all I wasn't going to mention this at the time, but now it seems to fit in perfectly with Federico Malibago's recent post. A while back, John Fischer wrote: "....which is why I will continually train in FMA combatives because they are of simular aplication in firearms as well as eged and impact weapons ......take care and God bless America ,maybe America truly is the last great warrior culture." I agree with the first half of this wholeheartedly. I don't want to fall out John, and it is taken in isolation, but wouldn't the whole statement suggest maybe the PI would represent more of a warrior culture than the US? Actually I think there are warrior spirits everywhere. I am sure there are plenty in the US, one or two of which I have trained with myself, I've trained with them in Thailand and there are plenty here in the UK where I live. You don't need to carry a gun to be a true warrior as any samurai will tell you, and Chief Lapu Lapu also had his good days ;) Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many 'upstanding citizens' in the UK, but if I were cornered by armed or multiple oponents, I would be arming myself with incidental weapons faster than you can say "Give me your wallet." Anyhoo, back to Federico's point. The difference between the PI and the West as I see it, is well-illustrated by an FMA aquaintance of mine who was in the PI with Krishna Godhania to train with Master Abner Passer (sp?): They were doing hubud with sticks on the beach, Abner Passer had wandered off and a local Filipino turned up in a pick up truck and asked to join in their 'practice'. My aquaintance said OK and the local went back to the vehicle, picked up two barongs and headed swiftly toward my mate, ready to chop his arms off. Abner Passer luckily returned just at this point, and drew his firearm and shouted at the Filipino, telling him to leave. Then my mate got ONE HELL of a telling off for allowing a challenge from a local, without even realising it was a serious challenge. This simply would not happen like this in England, and I suspect not in the US either. The following also would not happen in England, although I suppose it might in the US: Another mate of mine, Pete, was in the PI for the world stickfighting championships in '97 or '98, in Manilla. Pete and another British kalista were outside their hotel and were carrying sticks, visibly. A Filipino taxi driver stopped and said: "You play stick! You want to play stick with me?" Pete's mate said "No" and the taxi driver said "Why not?" Pete's mate said "Because I'd beat you." Now Pete's mate was there to compete in the World Championship, so he was no slouch, but this was a little arrogant and confrontational, and the local just wandered back to his taxi. Pete and his mate were talking for a few seconds and the next thing they knew was the Filipino holding a pistol to the guy's head saying "Who win now huh? Who win now?!" They are both still alive, but as John Fischer said, "Keep low and watch your 360." Just my 2 pence worth. Strike from the void (anywhere in the world) Julian _________________________________________________________________ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:48:14 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Julian, Reading through your post I had some things I wanted to comment on. I find it funny that you talk about Samurai and Chief Lapu Lapu in your anti-gun argument. Regardless if you yourself are anti-gun or not the entire way you word everything you post is that way. The Samurai and the chief used the best things they could at the time which happened to be bladed weapons. When the samurai were faced, in all of their skill, on the open battlefield with guns they were destroyed. If he could have had the advantage I am sure the Chief would have used them as well. It seems to me that you have based yourself totally in the realm of a civilian mindset. Being a combat veteran I find it laughable that you could even think of coming to a modern battle without a firearm. As much as you and several others throughout this world would like guns to just go away, it will never happen. Criminals and other deviants do not want a fair fight. They do not want to train for years to get good at something. They get a gun, somewhat learn to use it and get what they want as easily as possible. At your expense I might add. So what if elites look down on weapons? None of them will ever have to use them. It is because of the elites in most of our western countries that there has been a fallout to the basic warrior mindset that all used to possess. Tyler ----- Original Message ---- From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:11:53 AM Subject: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Hi all I wasn't going to mention this at the time, but now it seems to fit in perfectly with Federico Malibago's recent post. A while back, John Fischer wrote: "....which is why I will continually train in FMA combatives because they are of simular aplication in firearms as well as eged and impact weapons ......take care and God bless America ,maybe America truly is the last great warrior culture." I agree with the first half of this wholeheartedly. I don't want to fall out John, and it is taken in isolation, but wouldn't the whole statement suggest maybe the PI would represent more of a warrior culture than the US? Actually I think there are warrior spirits everywhere. I am sure there are plenty in the US, one or two of which I have trained with myself, I've trained with them in Thailand and there are plenty here in the UK where I live. You don't need to carry a gun to be a true warrior as any samurai will tell you, and Chief Lapu Lapu also had his good days  ;) Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many 'upstanding citizens' in the UK, but if I were cornered by armed or multiple oponents, I would be arming myself with incidental weapons faster than you can say "Give me your wallet." Anyhoo, back to Federico's point. The difference between the PI and the West as I see it, is well-illustrated by an FMA aquaintance of mine who was in the PI with Krishna Godhania to train with Master Abner Passer (sp?): They were doing hubud with sticks on the beach, Abner Passer had wandered off and a local Filipino turned up in a pick up truck and asked to join in their 'practice'. My aquaintance said OK and the local went back to the vehicle, picked up two barongs and headed swiftly toward my mate, ready to chop his arms off. Abner Passer luckily returned just at this point, and drew his firearm and shouted at the Filipino, telling him to leave. Then my mate got ONE HELL of a telling off for allowing a challenge from a local, without even realising it was a serious challenge. This simply would not happen like this in England, and I suspect not in the US either. The following also would not happen in England, although I suppose it might in the US: Another mate of mine, Pete, was in the PI for the world stickfighting championships in '97 or '98, in Manilla. Pete and another British kalista were outside their hotel and were carrying sticks, visibly. A Filipino taxi driver stopped and said: "You play stick! You want to play stick with me?" Pete's mate said "No" and the taxi driver said "Why not?" Pete's mate said "Because I'd beat you." Now Pete's mate was there to compete in the World Championship, so he was no slouch, but this was a little arrogant and confrontational, and the local just wandered back to his taxi. Pete and his mate were talking for a few seconds and the next thing they knew was the Filipino holding a pistol to the guy's head saying "Who win now huh? Who win now?!" They are both still alive, but as John Fischer said, "Keep low and watch your 360." Just my 2 pence worth. Strike from the void (anywhere in the world) Julian _________________________________________________________________ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:51:27 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net That would be wrongly, at least to the informed. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Julian Gilmour wrote: > Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many > 'upstanding > citizens' in the UK, --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 09:56:28 -0700 (PDT) From: Jonathan Kessler Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I don't know if I agree, Ray, in context of the UK. There carrying arms is illegal. Your chances of encountering an armed opponent is (theoretically) lower, and there is a strong (perhaps stronger than here, from my experiences in the UK) tradition of "duke it out man to man". In that context, carrying arms could easily be seen as a cowardly way to make yourself superior to an unarmed opponent, rather than (as is the case here) to give you parity with a potentially armed opponent. Just sayin'. JK ________________________________ From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Wednesday, July 22, 2009 9:51:27 AM Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West That would be wrongly, at least to the informed. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jul 22, 2009, at 6:11 AM, Julian Gilmour wrote: > Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many 'upstanding > citizens' in the UK, _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 12:36:08 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net imho if one is silly enough to duke it out then simply don't pull the knife/palm-stick/pen/handgun/whatever. But far more likely is that one is defending themselves or family or friend or loved one from danger. In those situations being armed is by far the best way to go. Esp given that being armed will typically end the interpersonal encounter before it even begins. Yes, in some situations it can escalate the encounter, but more frequently it does not. I like my chances better being armed than not being armed. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jul 22, 2009, at 9:56 AM, Jonathan Kessler wrote: > I don't know if I agree, Ray, in context of the UK. > There carrying arms is illegal. Your chances of encountering an > armed opponent is (theoretically) lower, and there is a strong > (perhaps stronger than here, from my experiences in the UK) > tradition of "duke it out man to man". In that context, carrying > arms could easily be seen as a cowardly way to make yourself > superior to an unarmed opponent, rather than (as is the case here) > to give you parity with a potentially armed opponent. > > Just sayin'. > > JK --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 13:40:47 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West - to jullian To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi jullian:   interesting post and anecdotes.   just my dalawang centimos.   (1)  on the whole, i would tend to agree with that "warrior culture" that you posit.    (2)  having said that, there is something in the pinoy culture that is extremely dangerous, and it is more of a street mentality than a warrior mentality, although i teach it together with arnis.    the second incident involving pete illustrates that. street encounters in the philippines are very dangerous because of the element of "gulang."  "Gulang" loosely defined means an unfair advantage, and has the connotation of being sneaky, stealthy and underhanded.   in the pete incident, of course it was poor form to be arrogant.  but the biggest mistake there was tipping your hand, i.e., you are good with a stick.  do you think that filipino's mother raised a fool, and he would now test how good you are with that stick by getting his stick or even his barong?   of course not.  he ratchets up his advantage and gets his gun.  also be reminded, the filipino is as much in love with his gun as with his blade.   while i was never a street fighter like marc "animal" mcyoung, i was street savvy when i lived back there.   just some anecdotes:   (1)  college - when we partied, usually you run with a "barkada," more like frat brothers than a street gang. i was friends with a big group then, called the "Havocs". one night, they wanted to crash a party and i said, we only have 3 vehicles (2 cars and a private jeep). they laughed and said, don't worry.  we have security, pointing to the jeep, full of "junior" members who looked like they were 13 or 15 years old.  then they showed me.  one of the kids stepped out and brandished a tommy sub-machine gun, which we called "de plato."   (2)  i think i have told this story as an illustration before. my friend George and I used to double date.  his date lived in a real bad part of town.  not only that.  to get her, you need get out of your car and walk down an "eskinita" or alley, past a sari-sari store where the local toughies would drink every night.   since george drove, i had to get her.  as i walk past the sari-sari store, there would be the "ppsst.  want to have a drink?"  you do not want to be confrontational and give them the finger.  you do not want to be a pussy either and smile and say "waddup?"  you nod noncomittally without eye contact and keep on walking.  if two of them had gotten up to accost me, that's when george would have gotten out of the car with his fully loaded automatic.   my momma raised no fool either.   (3)  when i was in cotabato, i saw this multiple layers of defense or security all the time.  when i met the mayor of pigkawayan the first time, we met in an open "carinderia" or restaurant along the road.  he was a marked man because he was reputed to be an "ilaga" supporter (anti-muslim).   he was sitting at a table with an aide.  a few tables away, a group of his security men just chatted away.  across the street was a Land Rover with armed men in it.  half a mile down the street was a military checkpoint with soldiers in full battle gear.  good luck in pulling some stunt with the old guy.   (4)  we knew an acquaintance who was the son of a politician.  eventually he gained notoriety.  when he went to a nightclub, he would sit alone with a date or a "hostess," now euphemistically called a "GRO" or guest relations officer.  but several tables away, a couple of his bodyguards would be drinking quietly by themselves.  outside in the parking lot, in a separate vehicle, was another couple of bodyguards, with the heavy artillery.   so be careful who you pick a fight with in a club, street or hamlet.  and if you do, make sure you have the gulang/advantage, not the other way around.   one of my favorite theories is that lapu-lapu "gulanged" or suckered magellan somehow, who was probably expecting a fair fight. right...   jay de leon www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com   p.s.  it is GM abner pasa.    --- On Wed, 7/22/09, Julian Gilmour wrote: From: Julian Gilmour Subject: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West To: "Escrima Digest" Date: Wednesday, July 22, 2009, 6:11 AM Hi all I wasn't going to mention this at the time, but now it seems to fit in perfectly with Federico Malibago's recent post. A while back, John Fischer wrote: "....which is why I will continually train in FMA combatives because they are of simular aplication in firearms as well as eged and impact weapons ......take care and God bless America ,maybe America truly is the last great warrior culture." I agree with the first half of this wholeheartedly. I don't want to fall out John, and it is taken in isolation, but wouldn't the whole statement suggest maybe the PI would represent more of a warrior culture than the US? Actually I think there are warrior spirits everywhere. I am sure there are plenty in the US, one or two of which I have trained with myself, I've trained with them in Thailand and there are plenty here in the UK where I live. You don't need to carry a gun to be a true warrior as any samurai will tell you, and Chief Lapu Lapu also had his good days  ;) Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many 'upstanding citizens' in the UK, but if I were cornered by armed or multiple oponents, I would be arming myself with incidental weapons faster than you can say "Give me your wallet." Anyhoo, back to Federico's point. The difference between the PI and the West as I see it, is well-illustrated by an FMA aquaintance of mine who was in the PI with Krishna Godhania to train with Master Abner Passer (sp?): They were doing hubud with sticks on the beach, Abner Passer had wandered off and a local Filipino turned up in a pick up truck and asked to join in their 'practice'. My aquaintance said OK and the local went back to the vehicle, picked up two barongs and headed swiftly toward my mate, ready to chop his arms off. Abner Passer luckily returned just at this point, and drew his firearm and shouted at the Filipino, telling him to leave. Then my mate got ONE HELL of a telling off for allowing a challenge from a local, without even realising it was a serious challenge. This simply would not happen like this in England, and I suspect not in the US either. The following also would not happen in England, although I suppose it might in the US: Another mate of mine, Pete, was in the PI for the world stickfighting championships in '97 or '98, in Manilla. Pete and another British kalista were outside their hotel and were carrying sticks, visibly. A Filipino taxi driver stopped and said: "You play stick! You want to play stick with me?" Pete's mate said "No" and the taxi driver said "Why not?" Pete's mate said "Because I'd beat you." Now Pete's mate was there to compete in the World Championship, so he was no slouch, but this was a little arrogant and confrontational, and the local just wandered back to his taxi. Pete and his mate were talking for a few seconds and the next thing they knew was the Filipino holding a pistol to the guy's head saying "Who win now huh? Who win now?!" They are both still alive, but as John Fischer said, "Keep low and watch your 360." Just my 2 pence worth. Strike from the void (anywhere in the world) Julian _________________________________________________________________ Share your memories online with anyone you want. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest