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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Thu Jul 23 11:21:56 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6NGLt407343 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:21:55 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 70913B28224; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:42:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 20:41:02 +0200 Message-ID: <20090723184102.1893.12736.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #158 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (iPat) 2. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (jhfischer@fuse.net) 3. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (Ray) 4. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (iPat) 5. Training in the PI verses training in the West (Ste Ormerod) 6. (no subject) (Nate Defensor) 7. Arms, cans, worms (Julian Gilmour) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:57:31 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net fwiw, in his (Julians) original earlier mail he clearly stated that if he lived in a country where the laws were different then he would adapt to that environment, which led me to understand his mail was not anti gun. At the same time you can't enforce the same mindset onto another culture and expect the solution to be the same. What works in your environment is for you to determine, in mine (UK) i use what is necessary. In my case, I simply don't accept that I will walk into danger. It may be that i will put myself in the way to help protect others, but I am a civilian and therefore have to understand what limitations there might be legally and know how to use that to my advantage. Im not fighting in Afghanistan. Im in a country with a long history that has sculptured our culture and yes, it is not our way to carry firearms. if i go to Brazil i find the difference in their culture interesting. I dont want it to be like mine, I enjoy the variety. If i want to 'duke' it out, then it's an act of consent to fight the person. At my age i have no desire to do that anymore, but many gang type issues i was involved in were dealt with predominately the fist. I think - using Julians quoted comment of it being more 'manly' - its mainly a romantic notion far from my upbringing. We fought with the empty hand mainly because we didn't have weapons as we were likely to be targeted by police at any moment. Some fights involved bats and blades (even - dare i say - tables and chairs), but the mindset is different because our environment is different. It doesn't make one better or worse, simply different. It doesn't make me anti gun but I tire of the blinkered view that the gun is right and all else is wrong argument and find it patronising and ignorant much of the time. And it doesn't make me any less of warrior not that i'll lose sleep over that accusation! If i want to travel the globe and go to countries where firearms are more prevalent, then - because of the fields we all train in here - i have made sure i am aware of what it entails and I am gun trained in simple fundamentals. if i say something derogatory about the US you will all stand up and take me to task. it goes both ways. i live here because i think its the best place to live. You have a different perspective no doubt. The sooner you are brought back under the realm the better if you ask me - rotflmao! On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 8:36 PM, Ray wrote: > imho if one is silly enough to duke it out then simply don't pull the > knife/palm-stick/pen/handgun/whatever.  But far more likely is that one is > defending themselves or family or friend or loved one from danger.  In those > situations being armed is by far the best way to go.  Esp given that being > armed will typically end the interpersonal encounter before it even begins. >  Yes, in some situations it can escalate the encounter, but more frequently > it does not.  I like my chances better being armed than not being armed. > > Ray Terry > EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net -- -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk http://twitter.com/ipat23 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 22:22:46 -0400 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Cc: Julian Gilmour Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net High Julian How is everything in the UK? When I was speaking of firearms vs another form of combative's I was speaking of the superiority of a firearm as a whole . If knives and sticks were better than guns we would still be using them as are primary weapon in war .Why the training for firearm is very involved it takes less time to train someone to be tactically proficient than it does to train them in edge and impact weapons .I have done both and can say first hand it takes months to train someone to be proficient with edge and impact weapons,but only a week to get the same person very provident at firearms . I to think that there are warriors in every culture ,not just the US.I was only referring to my view point on arming yourself being superior to a wooden stick and that the US citizens have a modern warrior point of view on combative's. I couldn’t understand someone making a statement that firearms are inadequate for protection .I also couldn’t understand the fact that UK citizens aloud their government to dictate to them that they cannot arm themselves ,if they are law abiding citizens.We live in the modern age and a firearm is a modern weapon . To summarize what I’m trying to say ,if you do not train in modern warfare your are not a modern warrior and do not have a modern warrior culture .Therefore you are fundamentally inadequate when it comes to modern battle .In the US this is understood and a great many of citizen train this way.You guys are not a gun culture and have lost the right to bare arms .Ididnt understand that at the time of my first post ....now I do .If you weren’t raised around firearms and everything you heard about them was looked down upon and made politically incorrect to talk about ...then I can see how your view point as a culture would see firearms as bad thing .As I stated before We have a fundamentally different points of view in are cultures on this subject and I’m not speaking for everyone in the US.Thats the great thing about it is that everyone here has a choice ....legally Let me ask you a question .Lets take out the bad guy robbing you scenario that is so comely trained in MA studios and posted as a example as why not to arm yourself.Let talk about civil unrest or natural disasters .Do you guys have these in the UK? I can tell you first hand that when civil unrest is around you or in a city or state the electric and water is shut down ,you will want to be armed ....heavily .I don’t know maybe you guys are lucky when it come to these kind of things ....maybe your government does a better job at responding to these kind of things.You tell me ...I don’t know As far as arming yourself being cowardly ....that doesn’t make much sense to me .Speaking again from personal experience It still takes alot of nerve to employ a firearm and be prepared to use it in a dynamic situation .As I stated in a past post a firearm is a great equalizer but to be trained and carry a firearm is the main objective. The two examples of the confrontation between men were great examples that you stated on your post .I have ran into this working with the Latino community .I think you will find that in alot of cultures that struggle to live on a day to day basis .There is a hardness or a gamely like quality that is developed when just day to day survival is the name of the game.I will finish by saying that on the last example that you stated even though you friend sounds like a expert competing in a world championship he got caught with his preverbal stick in his hand ....pun intended. Ill bet you if you asked him if we wished he had a gun back then he would have said.... YES! I believe that guns are outlawed in PI which also proves my final point Good guys cant have guns there,but a nutcase taxi driver can get one .I thank you for pointing this story of your friend out to me as I will be going to PI again this winter .I will acquire a firearm legally or illegally when I arrive to arm myself while visiting .To be forewarned is to be forearmed ....thank you . STAY LOW AND CHECK 360 JOHN ---- Julian Gilmour wrote: > Hi all > > > > I wasn't going to mention this at the time, but now it seems to fit in > perfectly with Federico Malibago's recent post. > > > > A while back, John Fischer wrote: > > > > "....which is why I will continually train > in FMA combatives because they are of simular aplication in firearms as well > as eged and impact weapons ......take care and God bless America ,maybe > America truly is the last great warrior culture." > > I agree with the first half of this wholeheartedly. I don't want to fall out > John, and it is taken in isolation, but wouldn't the whole statement suggest > maybe the PI would represent more of a warrior culture than the US? > > Actually I think there are warrior spirits everywhere. I am sure there are > plenty in the US, one or two of which I have trained with myself, I've trained > with them in Thailand and there are plenty here in the UK where I live. You > don't need to carry a gun to be a true warrior as any samurai will tell you, > and Chief Lapu Lapu also had his good days ;) > > Arms (rightly or wrongly) are considered a little cowardly by many 'upstanding > citizens' in the UK, but if I were cornered by armed or multiple oponents, I > would be arming myself with incidental weapons faster than you can say "Give > me your wallet." > > Anyhoo, back to Federico's point. The difference between the PI and the West > as I see it, is well-illustrated by an FMA aquaintance of mine who was in the > PI with Krishna Godhania to train with Master Abner Passer (sp?): > > They were doing hubud with sticks on the beach, Abner Passer had wandered off > and a local Filipino turned up in a pick up truck and asked to join in their > 'practice'. My aquaintance said OK and the local went back to the vehicle, > picked up two barongs and headed swiftly toward my mate, ready to chop his > arms off. Abner Passer luckily returned just at this point, and drew his > firearm and shouted at the Filipino, telling him to leave. Then my mate got > ONE HELL of a telling off for allowing a challenge from a local, without even > realising it was a serious challenge. > > This simply would not happen like this in England, and I suspect not in the US > either. The following also would not happen in England, although I suppose it > might in the US: > > Another mate of mine, Pete, was in the PI for the world stickfighting > championships in '97 or '98, in Manilla. Pete and another British kalista were > outside their hotel and were carrying sticks, visibly. A Filipino taxi driver > stopped and said: "You play stick! You want to play stick with me?" Pete's > mate said "No" and the taxi driver said "Why not?" Pete's mate said "Because > I'd beat you." Now Pete's mate was there to compete in the World Championship, > so he was no slouch, but this was a little arrogant and confrontational, and > the local just wandered back to his taxi. > > Pete and his mate were talking for a few seconds and the next thing they knew > was the Filipino holding a pistol to the guy's head saying "Who win now huh? > Who win now?!" > > They are both still alive, but as John Fischer said, "Keep low and watch your > 360." > > Just my 2 pence worth. > > Strike from the void (anywhere in the world) > > Julian > > > > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > Share your memories online with anyone you want. > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Ray To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 19:40:28 -0700 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Agreed. Which is why in my post, which was quoted, I listed a firearm in the weapons listed, but last. If you can't freely 'carry', sad imho, but no reason to go unarmed. And no reason for an informed person, again imho, to see carrying a weapon as cowardly. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net On Jul 22, 2009, at 2:57 PM, iPat wrote: > fwiw, in his (Julians) original earlier mail he clearly stated that if > he lived in a country where the laws were different then he would > adapt to that environment, which led me to understand his mail was not > anti gun. --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 09:19:31 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I have one instructor who was training with the late Herman Suwanda and went for a cigar outside the house. He stood there watching, with his arms crossed, someone working the land. He watched, in his relaxed state, as the man walked to wards him with a machete and didnt even think that he was coming over to him. Suwanda came out and shouted something and slapped the offenders arms from their crossed position. It was only later did my good friend learn that his manner was considered arrogant and insulting to the local. Lesson - dont smoke! ; ) I watched a student of a senior Thai boxing instructor 'theep' a student standing with his hands on his hips and start screaming at him. He saw it as a challenge. I saw an official get upset with tourists sitting in a temple in Thailand with their bare feet facing the Buddha although it didn't go further, but the admonished tourists were unaware of their insult. When in Brazil, when you say hello do not connect the forefinger to the thumb in the recognised worldwide symbol. Just raise your thumb instead. it is true that I encouraged my boss to do it on a business trip there once. In the UK, do not raise two fingers in an inverted peace sign anymore? On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM, jay de leon wrote: > > in the pete incident, of course it was poor form to be > arrogant.  but the biggest mistake there was tipping > your hand, i.e., you are good with a stick.  do you > think that filipino's mother raised a fool, and he would > now test how good you are with that stick by getting > his stick or even his barong? -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk http://twitter.com/ipat23 --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ste Ormerod To: eskrima digest Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 08:50:18 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Julian, I too like your anecdotes, and as a fellow UK Citizen I respect your views on firearms. However, you do make some interesting points about firearms. 1. Abner Paser (sp?) successfully defended his students with a firearm 2. Had your friend or his mate had a firearm, wouldn't that have deterred the cab driver? I don't want to get on my soap box here, but I've a problem with my government (the UK) taking away my rights to own a firearm. In 1997, right after the Dunblane Nursery massacre, all hand guns were made illegal. I was forced to give up my hand gun along with my brother and father. This was meant to reduce gun crime. It didn't, gun crime has steadily risen in the UK, therefore my chances of meeting an assailant armed with a firearm have risen too. The government has also made it a lot more difficult for law abiding, responsible martial artists to purchase swords and knives. Two of the main weapons of FMA! So now, the only people who would be carrying a weapon are the criminals. Pair this with some truly awful response times from the police here in the uk and I'm sorry, I'm going to take my chance and risk the 5 year jail term for carrying a knife. Also, another point about firearms - the Samurai also had guns. I'm not trying to provoke an argument, nor am I trying to disrespect anybody. Just attempting to keep the blood pumping with serious discussion. Regards, Ste Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. Get Them Now _________________________________________________________________ With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2009 23:11:52 -0700 (PDT) From: Nate Defensor To: Eskrima Digest Subject: [Eskrima] (no subject) Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi All, Check out this recent content published by a classy website that recently went live: http://www.fmapulse.com =========== 1. My training with Suro Mike Inay and Punong Guro Jeff Espinous Published Article by FmaAdmin [ http://www.fmapulse.com/content/my-training-suro-mike-inay-and-punong-guro-je ff-espinous ] --- 2. A Japanese Stylist’s View on Kali Majapahit Published Article by FmaAdmin [ http://www.fmapulse.com/content/japanese-stylist%E2%80%99s-view-kali-majapahi t ] --- 3. A Lesson in Kali-Escrima (2009) Published Article by FmaAdmin [ http://www.fmapulse.com/content/lesson-kali-escrima-2009 ] ====================== Hope you enjoy. It is free to set up an account here, it is ala facebook but not a NING site like MySpace or MyFma.net.  It has other features you might like. And the operative word is, it is FREE to setup an account. Peace, Nate Defensor Defensor Method of Filipino Martial Arts http://www.defensormethod.com --__--__-- Message: 7 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 11:59:55 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Arms, cans, worms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all Who’s idea was it to stir this pot? ;) I’ll try and put these worms back in the can, but there’s a helluva lot of them, and it’s only an average size can. Tyler Murphy said: >Reading through your post I had some things I wanted to comment on. I find it funny that you talk about Samurai and Chief Lapu Lapu in your anti-gun argument. < Me: Respectfully, it wasn’t an anti gun argument, I am not anti gun, I just have certain legal practicalities here in the UK. As I said in a recent post, firearms possession in the UK would likely land me in jail, where I cannot defend my family, and would not feel comfortable picking up the soap. I am not condoning this, I am just reporting it. I have trained with the US instructor Sifu Marc McFann on many occasions. He is a huge gun nut, teaches their use, and last time I spoke to him, he owned 103 firearms. I really like the idea of going to his place in Arkansas and training empty hand, stick, knife and definitely firearms. I do feel like my hands are seriously tied over here. John Fischer has emailed my privately and mentioned civil unrest and natural disasters. He was absolutely right, as if it does hit the fan, like everyone in London, I am 10 minutes away from bad areas where many of the criminals are armed, and how do you get something as simple as fresh water with mob rule, if martial law fails to cope? That’s a lot to ask of Sammo Hung ;) I am aware of my limitations in this country and I do not find my situation ideal at all. All I am doing is reporting the UK situation as I see it, not appraising whether it works and I am not or trying to sell it to the US. That would be a pointless exercise, even if I did agree with it. Allowing the government to dictate arms laws is a separate and hugely complicated issue, and I don’t have the time or energy to go into it here. Suffice to say that we are in different countries, citizens in the UK generally have a different mindset to that of the US, and we also different governments. >Regardless if you yourself are anti-gun or not the entire way you word everything you post is that way. The Samurai and the chief used the best things they could at the time which happened to be bladed weapons. When the samurai were faced, in all of their skill, on the open battlefield with guns they were destroyed. If he could have had the advantage I am sure the Chief would have used them as well. It seems to me that you have based yourself totally in the realm of a civilian mindset. Being a combat veteran I find it laughable that you could even think of coming to a modern battle without a firearm. < Me: I am a civilian, but try my best to strengthen my position as best I reasonably can. ‘In times of peace, prepare for war’ – Sun Tzu. Like you lot, ideally I would like to be well-armed, and the bad guys to have bananas. ‘Modern battle’ is extremely rare here, but if I was in it, I would definitely want firearms. >As much as you and several others throughout this world would like guns to just go away, it will never happen. Criminals and other deviants do not want a fair fight. They do not want to train for years to get good at something. They get a gun, somewhat learn to use it and get what they want as easily as possible. At your expense I might add. So what if elites look down on weapons? None of them will ever have to use them. It is because of the elites in most of our western countries that there has been a fallout to the basic warrior mindset that all used to possess.< Me: I know guns won’t go away and I am fully aware of, and agree with, the rest of this paragraph. Ray said: >imho if one is silly enough to duke it out then simply don't pull the knife/palm-stick/pen/handgun/whatever. But far more likely is that one is defending themselves or family or friend or loved one from danger. In those situations being armed is by far the best way to go.< Me: Obviously. But not everyone over here agrees with you, as they generally are ill-informed, as you say. >Esp given that being armed will typically end the interpersonal encounter before it even begins. Yes, in some situations it can escalate the encounter, but more frequently it does not. I like my chances better being armed than not being armed.< Me: I don’t disagree, but I think you guys are really struggling to understand how it is in the UK. I have never been shot, I have only had a gun pointed at me abroad, I do not know anyone who has been shot, (armed forces aside) I do not know anyone who knows anyone who has been shot (unless you do, Pat). I have never even seen an illegal firearm. I am from just outside Liverpool, and have lived in central London for over 10 years and I have never even HEARD one single illegal gunshot fired, ever, in all my 40 years. Yes, gunfights happen, yes I need to be aware. I have trained with ex-SAS Bob Spour and, like Pat Davies, I employ his commentary walking techniques, so I am not a complete mug, but gunfights are really very rare here. Please don’t try and quote stats at me, because they wouldn’t change my mind or personal experience. Remember I am not anti-gun. I would want one in the states where they are allowed, and would definitely like to learn how to use them properly. I would probably arrange one if they were only ‘slightly’ illegal here, like, say possession of Cannabis, that would only give me a police caution or a small fine, but they are highly illegal, and would land me in jail. Not a price I am prepared to pay As for Jay de Leon’s post: Me: Great examples sir, as usual. I would not travel in the PI without a proper guide, and would not want us to be under-armed. Absolutely no disrespect to GM Abner Pasa or his affiliates. I attended a Tuhon Bill McGrath seminar in south London a while ago, and he did not carry a gun or a knife, because of the legal framework here. He did however carry a very heavy writing implement, and a Mag-light torch with him, and if this non-gun approach is good enough for the chief instructor of Pekiti Tirsia, then it’s good enough for me. Any more issues, maybe you should all take them up with him. (On second thoughts, NO! DO NOT DO THIS! Sorry for any time wasted Tuhon.) Cheers Julian _________________________________________________________________ Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest