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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Thu Jul 23 16:02:48 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6NL2lR31866 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:02:47 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 45259B28251; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 01:23:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 01:22:00 +0200 Message-ID: <20090723232200.12471.1723.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #159 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. 5th East Coast FMA Gathering - SAT 8/15 (Richie Acosta) 2. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (iPat) 3. More clarification (Julian Gilmour) 4. The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility (Marc Denny) 5. Re: training here vs home (maurice gatdula) 6. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (jhfischer@fuse.net) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: "Richie Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 13:19:09 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] 5th East Coast FMA Gathering - SAT 8/15 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net 5th East Coast FMA Gathering This is an informal gathering of Kali Eskrima Arnis practitioners in Manhattan, to help build comraderie in the local FMA community and increase general awareness and appreciation of other FMA styles/systems. No fighting or Politics. The gathering will be held at Fighthouse, a martial arts studio located near MSG/Penn Station Fighthouse DATE: Saturday, August 15th TIME: 12AM-7PM LOCATION: Fighthouse 122 West 27th St. (2nd Flr.) Manhattan COST: $10 entrance fee to cover cost of hourly rental. There will be 6 1/2 hrs of instruction from different styles. The following is a list of confirmed instructors that will be teaching at the Gathering (listed in alphabetic order according to style/system represented). Updates will be posted as we receive more confirmations; Amara Arkanis - Mataw Guro Lou Lledo Balintawak - Master Zack Taco Kuntaw Kali Kruzada - Maestro Rico Acosta Pananandata - Master Spencer Gee Pananandata - Guro Rob Mulligan To be confirmed; Modern Arnis Pekiti Tirsia Intl. Ultimate Eskrima (Decuerdas) Mataw Guro Lou Lledo, the founder of Amara Arkanis hosted the first three East Coast FMA Gatherings in New Jersey. Regular gatherings will be scheduled in different venues and locations on the East Coast. Instructors and practitioners from all styles are welcome. All FMA gatherings are non-profit events. The entrance fees will go towards the cost of rental space and misc. expenses. -- How Strong is Your Score? Click here to see yours for $0! By FreeCreditReport.com --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:18:49 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Handgun bans in the UK affected an estimated 57,000 people - 0.1% of the population. I shot from the age of 7 to 13, but my parents couldn't afford it after that and i never knew anyone who shot except farmers kids. I was able to shoot again in the school's cadet force but in my area of growing up I guess it was more a class activity, which i do not suggest was the case elsewhere in the country. Based on the latest results: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs08/hosb0708.pdf: Contrary to public perception, the overall level of gun crime in England and Wales is very low – less than 0.5% of all crime recorded by the police. * The number of overall offences involving firearms fell by 2% in 2007-08 compared to the previous year * Firearms were involved in 455 serious or fatal injuries, compared to 468 the previous year - a drop of 3% * Offences involving handguns effectively held steady, those involving shotguns were down 3% * The number of reported crimes involving imitation guns effectively held steady (Source: Crime in England and Wales 2007-08) In my personal experience, There were more guns after the breakdown of the USSR and there was a direct link in the UK with the Klondikes, Liverpool drug lords and the IRA. That led to major drug cases and stemmed the worst of that. I see media sensationalism, but the statistics seem to counter that. If it were legal, I would have an active interest in the area and have traveled outside the UK for training. It's not legal though. Might it change? Soccer was once banned in England by King Edward III in 1314. He wanted the men to practice their archery in their spare time. you never know On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 9:50 AM, Ste Ormerod wrote: > > I don't want to get on my soap box here, but I've a problem with my government > (the UK) taking away my rights to own a firearm.  In 1997, right after the > Dunblane Nursery massacre, all hand guns were made illegal.  I was forced to > give up my hand gun along with my brother and father.  This was meant to > reduce gun crime. > > It didn't, gun crime has steadily risen in the UK, therefore my chances of > meeting an assailant armed with a firearm have risen too.  The government has > also made it a lot more difficult for law abiding, responsible martial artists > to purchase swords and knives.  Two of the main weapons of FMA!  So now, the > only people who would be carrying a weapon are the criminals.  Pair this with > some truly awful response times from the police here in the uk and I'm sorry, > I'm going to take my chance and risk the 5 year jail term for carrying a > knife. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk http://twitter.com/ipat23 --__--__-- Message: 3 From: Julian Gilmour To: Escrima Digest Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:02:05 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] More clarification Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all For further clarification, I’ve just sent this back to John Fischer, and I now see it was an open post, so here was my response. >High Julian How is everything in the UK? < Me: Good thanks, apart from a very sore collar bone. Heavy Muay Thai session on Monday night. >When I was speaking of firearms vs another form of combative's I was speaking of the superiority of a firearm as a whole . If knives and sticks were better than guns we would still be using them as are primary weapon in war .Why the training for firearm is very involved it takes less time to train someone to be tactically proficient than it does to train them in edge and impact weapons .I have done both and can say first hand it takes months to train someone to be proficient with edge and impact weapons,but only a week to get the same person very provident at firearms .< Me: Agree with everything you say. >I to think that there are warriors in every culture ,not just the US.I was only referring to my view point on arming yourself being superior to a wooden stick and that the US citizens have a modern warrior point of view on combative's. I couldn’t understand someone making a statement that firearms are inadequate for protection .I also couldn’t understand the fact that UK citizens aloud their government to dictate to them that they cannot arm themselves ,if they are law abiding citizens.We live in the modern age and a firearm is a modern weapon .< Me: This is a difficult one, and I put some detail in my post to Eskrima Digest today. It has always been like this, and I want to stay out of prison. >To summarize what I’m trying to say ,if you do not train in modern warfare your are not a modern warrior and do not have a modern warrior culture .Therefore you are fundamentally inadequate when it comes to modern battle .In the US this is understood and a great many of citizen train this way.You guys are not a gun culture and have lost the right to bare arms .Ididnt understand that at the time of my first post ....now I do .If you weren’t raised around firearms and everything you heard about them was looked down upon and made politically incorrect to talk about ...then I can see how your view point as a culture would see firearms as bad thing .As I stated before We have a fundamentally different points of view in are cultures on this subject and I’m not speaking for everyone in the US.Thats the great thing about it is that everyone here has a choice ....legally < Me: Agree with all this. >Let me ask you a question .Lets take out the bad guy robbing you scenario that is so comely trained in MA studios and posted as a example as why not to arm yourself.Let talk about civil unrest or natural disasters .Do you guys have these in the UK? I can tell you first hand that when civil unrest is around you or in a city or state the electric and water is shut down ,you will want to be armed ....heavily .I don’t know maybe you guys are lucky when it come to these kind of things ....maybe your government does a better job at responding to these kind of things.You tell me ...I don’t know < Me: We don’t really have the kind of civil unrest you are talking about, and only fairly mild natural disasters, and they don’t result in looting and New Orleans Katrina behaviour…. SO FAR. This is a genuine worry though, as, like everyone in London, I am not far from nasties with guns. There are few legal solutions: One would be to live on a farm and register with a shotgun, another would be to join a gun club, but this is very difficult in practice, and the process would take a long time and require contacts that aren’t immediately available too me. >As far as arming yourself being cowardly ....that doesn’t make much sense to me < Me: Personally I don’t think it cowardly, but many do. I am a martial artist, and I’m all for giving myself the edge. There is no such thing as a fair fight, and to quote Marc McFann, “if I am in a fight I am going to bite, scratch, eye gouge and pull hair, and if that doesn’t work, I’ll cheat ;) >.Speaking again from personal experience It still takes alot of nerve to employ a firearm and be prepared to use it in a dynamic situation .As I stated in a past post a firearm is a great equalizer but to be trained and carry a firearm is the main objective.< Me: Agree. >The two examples of the confrontation between men were great examples that you stated on your post .I have ran into this working with the Latino community .I think you will find that in alot of cultures that struggle to live on a day to day basis .There is a hardness or a gamely like quality that is developed when just day to day survival is the name of the game.I will finish by saying that on the last example that you stated even though you friend sounds like a expert competing in a world championship he got caught with his preverbal stick in his hand ....pun intended. Ill bet you if you asked him if we wished he had a gun back then he would have said.... YES! I believe that guns are outlawed in PI which also proves my final point Good guys cant have guns there,but a nutcase taxi driver can get one .< Me: Agree, and read my ED post before replying, but I would go to prison for firearms here, so it’s just a judgement call, given the lack of UK gun crime (again, so far, but it is rising rapidly). Currently I would be risking prison and the wrath of a seriously feisty French girlfriend! >I thank you for pointing this story of your friend out to me as I will be going to PI again this winter .< Me: Glad to be of service! I think you need to get some FMA brothers to organise a local guide when over there. This is important. >I will acquire a firearm legally or illegally when I arrive to arm myself while visiting .To be forewarned is to be forearmed ....thank you .< Me: I don’t know whether you’ve travelled much, I may be preaching to the converted, but try not to shoot anyone with an illegal firearm in the orient. Here is an example of Thai customs from my cousin who spends a lot of his time there. To English ears, this is insane…. If a westerner is in a parked vehicle, and a Thai drives into him, while drunk and speeding, it is still considered to be the westerner’s fault by all Thais. Why? Because if the westerner hadn’t come to Thailand in the first place, this would never have happened as the car would not have been parked there. This sounds like a joke but it isn’t. Anything that goes wrong is simply the foreigner’s fault automatically. You can imagine how a dead or injured local would look by the same logic, and I don’t fancy 20 years to life in a Filipino jail. Just a heads up – I would ask on the digest for advice on getting a guide. >STAY LOW AND CHECK 360 JOHN< Me: Good advice. Take care and good training. Cheers Julian PS BTW Ste Ormerod, I am inclined to agree with your views, mate. _________________________________________________________________ Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and more. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 4 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:49:04 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof All: Concerning warrior culture, guns, etc: As usual, Pat expresses himself well. Speaking for myself, I watch the British case with much interest. We descended from you and received our legal system from you. Therefore intuitively it seems to me that what results from your experiments is of particular relevance to us- and perhaps vice versa. Furthermore, like most Americans (and like most Brits I hope) I think there is a feeling of-- pardon the expression-- a "special relationship" between our two countries. More than once we have stood together as brothers in arms; most recently in Iraq and currently in Afghanistan. In other words, in some sense there is simply "we" of something larger than "America" and "Great Britain". That said, of course it is "Your house, your rules." Forgive me for using an American conceptual framework here, but IMHO our inalienable rights come from our Creator, not from the state. Amongst them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines (cf. Aristotle). Freedom and responsibility are a complementary duality-- the yin and yang of each other. Conceptually I have a hard time of understanding how a man can have the right to life, yet be denied the means to practically defend that right. Freedom and Responsibility are the complementary duality (Yin and Yang) of an essential dynamic (the Tao). If The State seeks to deny me from taking Responsibility for my Freedom by denying me the practical means of doing so, then it seems to me the State seeks to deny me my Freedom. I certainly wish you guys well in your experiment, but fear that you will come to regret it (criminal issues, social chaos, group conflicts) -- and will find that if and when you do change your minds you will not be allowed by your State to reverse directions and it will be too late. Although it often tries, the State cannot repeal the Law of Gravity. The State cannot repeal the Law of Supply and Demand. And the State cannot repeal the Right to Self Defense. The Adventure continues, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny PS: In the recent hearings in Washington DC over the nomination of Sotomayor to our Supreme Court I was flabbergasted by an exchange wherein she was asked whether there was a Constitutional right to self-defense. There most certainly is-- it is found in the Ninth Amendment: "All rights not otherwise enumerated remains retained by the people". Instead, she simply answered that that was an open question! That this did not excite much commentary in the main-stream media (which I now refer to as American Pravdas , , , but I digress , , ,) I found quite depressing. Are the American people becoming a sheeple? --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 10:49:20 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net i was not going to answer this post, because i know some people are sensitive to my comments about american/western habits with the FMA. but i was asked to comment by a few students and friends... i will leave alone the "attitude" of how the arts are treated by each group, and only talk about the practices and what i see. 1. Filipino fma did not change much over the years, so what we see back home, except for the large groups and schools, is pretty much what our fathers and grandfathers saw when they were young. the FMa here in the US is very young, and has its own culture and traditions. the older i get i realize this, that FMA means something different to the filipino vs. what it means to the american. FMA growth here came through karate/TKD/kanpo/JKD schools, so these arts colored everything (most everything) we see in the FMA. i believe this why we like (in the US) our FMA too look and sound "authentic/archipelago/ancient", where the filipino will pose for arnis in a t shirt and jeans, and use spanish words. hey it is what it is, no shame. 2. filipino students usually look at what can i do for my teacher and my style, but american students look at, what can it do for me. this explains the "loyalty to teacher" disagreement with the "loyalty is stupid, i am the customer" people 3. in the philippines, lineage means nothing, but it means everything. in the US, lineage means everything, but it means nothing. ;-) -- in case that confused you, this is what i mean. to the filipino lineage in the martial arts is almost as important as your family lineage, for pride, love and belonging. but for your martial arts and fighting, its a "who cares?" thing. but to the american student, the lineage is where most people get their credibility and reputation ("certified by master so - n - so", or "master so n so said it, so it must be true) instead of building his own through his own accomplishments. but for purpose of family, beloning, etc., lineage is no different than a woman to a playboy... its just another notch on your belt. 4. in the philippines, teachers take baby steps to teaching a student skill. class is patience, and a teacher might spend only a few minutes with you and you spend the rest of the time training yourself. here in the US, class is slam bam thank you man, teacher is only going to be in town for one day, so lets absorb what we can as much as we can (drinking from a water hose?)... did anybody tape that? outside of, again, big schools and big name teachers, i would say that most filipino teachers will teach a few techs in one class and do it hundreds of times, where in the US they will give you a hundred techniques in one class. again, this is a cultural difference. in america we are busy, no time to wait for that sandwich , just give me a number 6 supersized. in the philippines, they will cook your food and you better wait or go some place else. so the level of learning patience reflected in the teaching habits. 5. most filipino teachers do not have a black belt (he might wear one, tho) or a certificate. american teachers usually have several belts and certificates 6. most filipino teachers believe in "sport".... sparring and tournament. teachers here train "for street" 7. every filipino teacher i know has a rival. even filipino teachers here in the US. we all have our bad guy, and we are not too shy to dislike somebody in the open. american teachers have lots of friends and get along with everybody--or at least they are nice to everybody (except on the internet) 8. filipino teachers are usually not too sure about if he is going to accept that next new student (does anybody know him?). here in the west, we advertise and hope to reach everybody 9. hard training is not for everyone vs. anyone can learn it 10. in the philippines your teacher will tell you, this style will beat everybody. in the US, your teacher will try to learn everything under the sun... and respect all martial artists! no superior styles only individuals 11. in the philippines, the student will stay longer, long after he learned everthing the teacher has in his curriculum. in the US if you dont teach fast/interesting/entertaining enough, they move one. once he achieve his rank, most students are out to the next school or he starts teaching himself. 12. ongoing training vs seminar training 13. we do what we do vs we do everything 14. that wont work against me vs i gotta learn that 15. i am a master, let me prove it to you vs always a student 16. my art is superior to yours vs everybody has his own path Visit my websites! www.typhoonma.comwww.filipinofightingsecretslive.com Mabuhay! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:50:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Training in PI vs the West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Figured Id stir the pot once again.  I've had a number of experiences training in FMA both in the US and PI, experienced different styles, and views towards training, though my start down this path of FMA training was started here in the US.  For a long time I read posts from players in PI, talking about how it was different there than the US, and thought to myself well maybe for some schools, but we're different.  We work hard, we keep true to the spirit so to speak.  And well lo and behold, going to PI and getting the chance to experience FMA there, and well it was different.  Perhaps its the water, the balut, or the rice, but well players in PI just seemed to approach and do the art differently than those with only US training.  For me it was a big change in paradigm over what I was used to with the idea of "martial arts training", and was wondering how training compared for others who have trained both in PI and in the West? Sincerely Federico Malibago --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 16:28:18 -0400 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Cc: iPat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net -iPat , This maybe off point ....but why wouldn’t you raise your two fingers in a peace sign if in the UK? --- iPat wrote: > I have one instructor who was training with the late Herman Suwanda > and went for a cigar outside the house. He stood there watching, with > his arms crossed, someone working the land. He watched, in his relaxed > state, as the man walked to wards him with a machete and didnt even > think that he was coming over to him. > > Suwanda came out and shouted something and slapped the offenders arms > from their crossed position. It was only later did my good friend > learn that his manner was considered arrogant and insulting to the > local. Lesson - dont smoke! ; ) > > I watched a student of a senior Thai boxing instructor 'theep' a > student standing with his hands on his hips and start screaming at > him. He saw it as a challenge. I saw an official get upset with > tourists sitting in a temple in Thailand with their bare feet facing > the Buddha although it didn't go further, but the admonished tourists > were unaware of their insult. > > When in Brazil, when you say hello do not connect the forefinger to > the thumb in the recognised worldwide symbol. Just raise your thumb > instead. it is true that I encouraged my boss to do it on a business > trip there once. > > In the UK, do not raise two fingers in an inverted peace sign > > anymore? > > On Wed, Jul 22, 2009 at 9:40 PM, jay de leon wrote: > > > > > in the pete incident, of course it was poor form to be > > arrogant.  but the biggest mistake there was tipping > > your hand, i.e., you are good with a stick.  do you > > think that filipino's mother raised a fool, and he would > > now test how good you are with that stick by getting > > his stick or even his barong? > > > -- > Pat Davies > www.amag.org.uk > http://twitter.com/ipat23 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest