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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Fri Jul 24 13:15:45 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6OIFiB12362 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 13:15:44 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7D68DB28280; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:36:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 22:35:01 +0200 Message-ID: <20090724203501.25986.91464.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #160 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (iPat) 2. Re: The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility (jhfischer@fuse.net) 3. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (jhfischer@fuse.net) 4. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West (jhfischer@fuse.net) 5. Re: Re: training here vs home (Ruel Apostol) 6. Re: training here and home, part 2 (maurice gatdula) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:55:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West From: iPat To: jhfischer@fuse.net Cc: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net : ) given with back of the hand towards the recipient. http://www.autosportsltd.com/Images/making_lemans/finger.jpg The two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of English and Welsh longbowmen fighting at the Battle of Agincourt (1415) during the Hundred Years' War. The French would cut off the arrow-shooting fingers of all the English and Welsh longbowmen if caught. But the English came out victorious and showed off their two fingers, still intact. Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the English side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle speech. -- Pat Davies www.amag.org.uk http://twitter.com/ipat23 --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:51:30 -0400 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility Cc: Marc Denny Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hey Mark , I fear with the current administration that we will all be questioning what has happened to are constitution in the near future.It has with stood constant abuse from liberal politicians and only hope that it can withstand another onslaught of attacks .If we as a people do not tread carefully we will vary soon be faced with some of the things are UK brothers and myself have been debating about in these past posts. I love the sheeple comment ....very clever verbiage sir.....very clever indeed. I am to also sad to see someone that liberal is going to be in power in this great country that so many men before her have fought and died for. STAY LOW AND CHECK 360 JOHN ---- Marc Denny wrote: > Woof All: > > Concerning warrior culture, guns, etc: > > As usual, Pat expresses himself well. > > Speaking for myself, I watch the British case with much interest. We > descended from you and received our legal system from you. Therefore > intuitively it seems to me that what results from your experiments is of > particular relevance to us- and perhaps vice versa. Furthermore, like most > Americans (and like most Brits I hope) I think there is a feeling of-- > pardon the expression-- a "special relationship" between our two countries. > More than once we have stood together as brothers in arms; most recently in > Iraq and currently in Afghanistan. In other words, in some sense there is > simply "we" of something larger than "America" and "Great Britain". That > said, of course it is "Your house, your rules." > > Forgive me for using an American conceptual framework here, but IMHO our > inalienable rights come from our Creator, not from the state. Amongst them > are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines (cf. Aristotle). Freedom > and responsibility are a complementary duality-- the yin and yang of each > other. Conceptually I have a hard time of understanding how a man can have > the right to life, yet be denied the means to practically defend that right. > > Freedom and Responsibility are the complementary duality (Yin and Yang) of > an essential dynamic (the Tao). If The State seeks to deny me from taking > Responsibility for my Freedom by denying me the practical means of doing so, > then it seems to me the State seeks to deny me my Freedom. > > I certainly wish you guys well in your experiment, but fear that you will > come to regret it (criminal issues, social chaos, group conflicts) -- and > will find that if and when you do change your minds you will not be allowed > by your State to reverse directions and it will be too late. > > Although it often tries, the State cannot repeal the Law of Gravity. The > State cannot repeal the Law of Supply and Demand. And the State cannot > repeal the Right to Self Defense. > > The Adventure continues, > Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny > > > PS: In the recent hearings in Washington DC over the nomination of > Sotomayor to our Supreme Court I was flabbergasted by an exchange wherein > she was asked whether there was a Constitutional right to self-defense. > There most certainly is-- it is found in the Ninth Amendment: "All rights > not otherwise enumerated remains retained by the people". Instead, she > simply answered that that was an open question! That this did not excite > much commentary in the main-stream media (which I now refer to as American > Pravdas , , , but I digress , , ,) I found quite depressing. Are the > American people becoming a sheeple? > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 18:09:31 -0400 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Cc: iPat Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net -wow.... you learn something everyday .I always thought that was started in the sixty's by the BEATLES to mean peace .I vaguely remember hearing something like that but it was put under the context of how the middle finger came about .If ever visiting there I wont flip you guys my two finger then ,:O) JOHN --- iPat wrote: > : ) > given with back of the hand towards the recipient. > http://www.autosportsltd.com/Images/making_lemans/finger.jpg > > The two-fingers salute and/or V sign derives from the gestures of > English and Welsh longbowmen fighting at the Battle of Agincourt > (1415) during the Hundred Years' War. > > The French would cut off the arrow-shooting fingers of all the English > and Welsh longbowmen if caught. But the English came out victorious > and showed off their two fingers, still intact. > > Historian Juliet Barker quotes Jean Le Fevre (who fought on the > English side at Agincourt) as saying that Henry V included a reference > to the French cutting off longbowmen's fingers in his pre-battle > speech. > > -- > Pat Davies > www.amag.org.uk > http://twitter.com/ipat23 > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 17:50:20 -0400 From: To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West Cc: Ste Ormerod Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net - Ste Ormerod, How are you doing ? I’m glad to hear from a really heads up guy like yourself in the UK. All of these points you bring up are all on target .We have some states in the US with very strict unconstitutional laws on firearms. If you look at the crime rates and murder statistics in these states you will see outlawing firearms only had a detrimental effect on crime as in your country.I’m sorry to hear that gun violence has steadily increased in your country after a gun ban and you government has tied your hands so that you cannot protect yourself and family . If you get a chance please read Mr. Denny's post on his view points on this subject.I think he has summarized it better than I have tried to in my past posts. I would have to say I would take my chances on carrying the knife but I would carry maybe 2 0r 3 in deep concealment but try to have fast acquisition .I don’t know about import restriction but my good friend John Benner at T.D.I. has a great line of deep concealment knives and would be perfect for your needs .They are not really expensive so if you have to leave them in something or someone you wont be out that many shillings. The web site is Tactical Defense Institute .com He is also the designer of the knife and K-Bar rep. STAY LOW AND CHECK 360 JOHN --- Ste Ormerod wrote: > Julian, > > I too like your anecdotes, and as a fellow UK Citizen I respect your views on > firearms. However, you do make some interesting points about firearms. > > 1. Abner Paser (sp?) successfully defended his students with a firearm > 2. Had your friend or his mate had a firearm, wouldn't that have deterred the > cab driver? > > I don't want to get on my soap box here, but I've a problem with my government > (the UK) taking away my rights to own a firearm. In 1997, right after the > Dunblane Nursery massacre, all hand guns were made illegal. I was forced to > give up my hand gun along with my brother and father. This was meant to > reduce gun crime. > > It didn't, gun crime has steadily risen in the UK, therefore my chances of > meeting an assailant armed with a firearm have risen too. The government has > also made it a lot more difficult for law abiding, responsible martial artists > to purchase swords and knives. Two of the main weapons of FMA! So now, the > only people who would be carrying a weapon are the criminals. Pair this with > some truly awful response times from the police here in the uk and I'm sorry, > I'm going to take my chance and risk the 5 year jail term for carrying a > knife. > > Also, another point about firearms - the Samurai also had guns. > > I'm not trying to provoke an argument, nor am I trying to disrespect anybody. > Just attempting to keep the blood pumping with serious discussion. > > Regards, > > Ste > > > > Celebrate a decade of Messenger with free winks, emoticons, display pics, and > more. Get Them Now > _________________________________________________________________ > With Windows Live, you can organise, edit, and share your photos. > http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/134665338/direct/01/ > _______________________________________________ > Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members > Eskrima@martialartsresource.net > Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource > Standard disclaimers apply > Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 15:34:25 -0700 (PDT) From: Ruel Apostol Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Very well said! As a Filipino who was also Philippine trained and now based in the US, I agree to all points mentioned! ________________________________ From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:49:20 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home i was not going to answer this post, because i know some people are sensitive to my comments about american/western habits with the FMA. but i was asked to comment by a few students and friends... i will leave alone the "attitude" of how the arts are treated by each group, and only talk about the practices and what i see. 1. Filipino fma did not change much over the years, so what we see back home, except for the large groups and schools, is pretty much what our fathers and grandfathers saw when they were young. the FMa here in the US is very young, and has its own culture and traditions. the older i get i realize this, that FMA means something different to the filipino vs. what it means to the american. FMA growth here came through karate/TKD/kanpo/JKD schools, so these arts colored everything (most everything) we see in the FMA. i believe this why we like (in the US) our FMA too look and sound "authentic/archipelago/ancient", where the filipino will pose for arnis in a t shirt and jeans, and use spanish words. hey it is what it is, no shame. 2. filipino students usually look at what can i do for my teacher and my style, but american students look at, what can it do for me. this explains the "loyalty to teacher" disagreement with the "loyalty is stupid, i am the customer" people 3. in the philippines, lineage means nothing, but it means everything. in the US, lineage means everything, but it means nothing. ;-) -- in case that confused you, this is what i mean. to the filipino lineage in the martial arts is almost as important as your family lineage, for pride, love and belonging. but for your martial arts and fighting, its a "who cares?" thing. but to the american student, the lineage is where most people get their credibility and reputation ("certified by master so - n - so", or "master so n so said it, so it must be true) instead of building his own through his own accomplishments. but for purpose of family, beloning, etc., lineage is no different than a woman to a playboy... its just another notch on your belt. 4. in the philippines, teachers take baby steps to teaching a student skill. class is patience, and a teacher might spend only a few minutes with you and you spend the rest of the time training yourself. here in the US, class is slam bam thank you man, teacher is only going to be in town for one day, so lets absorb what we can as much as we can (drinking from a water hose?)... did anybody tape that? outside of, again, big schools and big name teachers, i would say that most filipino teachers will teach a few techs in one class and do it hundreds of times, where in the US they will give you a hundred techniques in one class. again, this is a cultural difference. in america we are busy, no time to wait for that sandwich , just give me a number 6 supersized. in the philippines, they will cook your food and you better wait or go some place else. so the level of learning patience reflected in the teaching habits. 5. most filipino teachers do not have a black belt (he might wear one, tho) or a certificate. american teachers usually have several belts and certificates 6. most filipino teachers believe in "sport".... sparring and tournament. teachers here train "for street" 7. every filipino teacher i know has a rival. even filipino teachers here in the US. we all have our bad guy, and we are not too shy to dislike somebody in the open. american teachers have lots of friends and get along with everybody--or at least they are nice to everybody (except on the internet) 8. filipino teachers are usually not too sure about if he is going to accept that next new student (does anybody know him?). here in the west, we advertise and hope to reach everybody 9. hard training is not for everyone vs. anyone can learn it 10. in the philippines your teacher will tell you, this style will beat everybody. in the US, your teacher will try to learn everything under the sun... and respect all martial artists! no superior styles only individuals 11. in the philippines, the student will stay longer, long after he learned everthing the teacher has in his curriculum. in the US if you dont teach fast/interesting/entertaining enough, they move one. once he achieve his rank, most students are out to the next school or he starts teaching himself. 12. ongoing training vs seminar training 13. we do what we do vs we do everything 14. that wont work against me vs i gotta learn that 15. i am a master, let me prove it to you vs always a student 16. my art is superior to yours vs everybody has his own path Visit my websites! www.typhoonma.comwww.filipinofightingsecretslive.com Mabuhay! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:50:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Training in PI vs the West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Figured Id stir the pot once again. I've had a number of experiences training in FMA both in the US and PI, experienced different styles, and views towards training, though my start down this path of FMA training was started here in the US. For a long time I read posts from players in PI, talking about how it was different there than the US, and thought to myself well maybe for some schools, but we're different. We work hard, we keep true to the spirit so to speak. And well lo and behold, going to PI and getting the chance to experience FMA there, and well it was different. Perhaps its the water, the balut, or the rice, but well players in PI just seemed to approach and do the art differently than those with only US training. For me it was a big change in paradigm over what I was used to with the idea of "martial arts training", and was wondering how training compared for others who have trained both in PI and in the West? Sincerely Federico Malibago _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 6 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:10:42 -0700 (PDT) From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training here and home, part 2 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi i wanted to add a little more to this topic, which is answering some questions from a board member. "I know you've talked about it being different, but what exactly IS different?  Is it the students?  Is it the training?  Is it the fear of being sued by a student here in the states because he felt the training was unsafe and he got a bruise on his knuckle one night in class?  What's the answer?  How do we make training here in the states comparable to that of PI?  I'm sure a lot of it depends on the instructors, but we do have some quality instructors here in the states to." 1. what is different? i think the main difference is the emphasis on techniques development in the philippines, where here the emphasis is on drilling and pre arranged technique. but i know a lot of this is because the more popular eskrima styles here in the US come from teachers who do a lot of drilling and prearranged technique. not all eskrima uses the drill the same way, but i do know this is the favorite method of teaching with american teachers. and today, this is believed to be the best way to teach fighting. i disagree. 2. is it the training? yes, filipino schools spend more time on stroking practice, american schools spend more time doing the give and take, and working counter and disarms. i have been told many many times, that students will not return to a class where we are throwing strikes for 45 minutes. i dont agree either, i been in business 18 years, and even though we have high turnover, i have plenty of long term fighters in my school, so theres enough people who like this kind of training. most of them do come from jkd and modern arnis background, even though i prefer students with no FMA background, they are easier to teach. also, i dont remember if i said it before, but there is emphasis on learning here in the US, vs training in the philippines. learning is softer and less painful, training is painful. once you learn something your done, and you move on to other stuff. but when you are training, you are never done. 3. is it the fear of being sued? no i dont think so. but maybe during sparring practice. but i think most arnis teachers teaching today learned from schools that didnt spar, or didnt spar much, so their students dont spar. its just how they learned. here in the US, when a student gets hurt in class its a big thing, where your teacher in the philippines would laugh and tell you to get up (or even congratulate you, as boggs lao did to me once). getting hurt is part of training, and i am not talking about getting your knuckle cracked on sinawali practice. today more eskrima teachers are willing to do "unsafe" practice, which is good. better than how it was in the past. 4.  how do we make it comparable? i think the answer is to train with another teacher yourself in this method. i could tell you, but you will not understand unless you go through the training yourself. sure, once in a while you'll "get" a tip here in there, but its not the same as if you did this, week after week, for a couple years... or you can do it old-style! make your own method, test it out, make a name for it, and then just do it. too many people did this themself, and there is nothing wrong, as long as you proved it works to yourself, and to the public. 5. theres good teachers here too. yes, i agree, you will find good teachers everywhere. but there, we have a difference. define "good". filipino definition of "good" is different than american definition of "good". american definitions of good can go from, he is fit, fast and strong... to his techniques are impressive to look at... to i like him he's a nice guy... to he has muscles and in that demo of techniques, this looks like some stuff he will kill you with. a filipino teacher will call you good if he sees that you can fight. he will look at the muscle guy and think, i can beat him. he will look at the impressive demos and drills and think, that wont work on me, he will look at the nice guy and smile, but still think his hands are soft and his forearm is too little, i can beat him, he will look at the demo and think, that is his student, of course that crap worked. now this is not everybody, but it is most of the people i know. being on the internet i see more and more filipinos who think the same way american FMA think, so maybe me and my friends are a minority, or we are to old fashioned. so i'm talking from the little world i came from. i cant speak for the bigger schools and their traditions. i just thought of someone. has anyone heard of don bitanga? from the DC area? is he still teaching? he was a student of bo sayoc back in the 70s, and old friend of mine. shorin ryu, sayoc arnis, and pekiti tirsia, i think. if (self != top) {top.location.href = self.location.href;}if (self != top) {while (navigator.userAgent.toLowerCase().indexOf("khtml") > 0) {;}}var isBookmark = false;function positionOffscreen(flag) {var newStyles = document.getElementById("offscrId");if (!newStyles) {var head = document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0];newStyles = document.createElement("style");newStyles.type = "text/css";newStyles.id = "offscrId";newStyles = head.appendChild(newStyles);}if (!flag && top.location.hash != "") {if (newStyles.styleSheet) {newStyles.styleSheet.cssText = "body {left:-999px;top:-9999px; position:absolute;}";} else {newStyles.textContent = "body {left:-999px;top:-9999px; position:absolute;}";}isBookmark = true;}if (flag) {if (newStyles.styleSheet) {newStyles.styleSheet.cssText = "";} else {newStyles.textContent = "";}}}positionOffscreen();var mgProfiler = {timerEnabled: "1",rsBeaconUrl: ".",CT: 0,MT: 0,CL: 0,OC: 0,OM: 0,totalAdTime: 0}; var gLaunchStartTime = ( new Date() ).getTime();function Timer() {this.start = 0;this.total = 0;this.active = false;}function Stopwatch(name) {this._name = name; this._timers = {};this.start = function(name) {if (!mgProfiler.timerEnabled) {return;}var t = this._timers[name];if (!t) { t = new Timer(); }t.start = (new Date()).getTime();this._timers[name] = t;t.active = true;};this.stop = function(name, isAd) {if (!mgProfiler.timerEnabled) {return;}var t = this._timers[name];if (!t) {t = new Timer();t.start = gLaunchStartTime;}t.total += ((new Date()).getTime() - t.start);if (typeof(isAd) !== "undefined" && isAd === true) { mgProfiler.totalAdTime += t.total; }this._timers[name] = t;t.start = 0;};this.add = function(name, value) {if (!mgProfiler.timerEnabled) {return;}var t = this._timers[name];if (!t) { t = new Timer(); }t.start = 0;t.total = value;t.active = true;this._timers[name] = t;};}var gLaunchProfile = new Stopwatch("LaunchProfile");function getArgumentList(prefix) {var argList = "";prefix = (prefix == "MG2") ? 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important } .cnewsms { BACKGROUND-POSITION: 2px -998px; PADDING-LEFT: 20px! important } .mozdragel { } .dragel { CURSOR: url('http://mail.yimg.com/a/i/us/pim/open.bmp') } .mozdragdown { } .dragdown { CURSOR: url('http://mail.yimg.com/a/i/us/pim/close.bmp') } .dragup { CURSOR: default } #message1064193288 { PADDING-RIGHT: 0pt; PADDING-LEFT: 0pt; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.8em; MARGIN: 1em 0pt; COLOR: #000; PADDING-TOP: 0.8em; POSITION: relative } #message1064193288 DIV.basemsg { PADDING-RIGHT: 10px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-TOP: 0px } #message1064193288 DIV.plainMail { FONT-SIZE: 100%; MARGIN: 1em 0pt; FONT-FAMILY: monospace } #message1064193288 DIV.forwardmsg { BORDER-RIGHT: 2px solid; PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; BORDER-TOP: 2px solid; MARGIN-TOP: 8px; PADDING-LEFT: 0px; MARGIN-BOTTOM: 0px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: 2px solid; PADDING-TOP: 0px; BORDER-BOTTOM: 2px solid } #message1064193288 DIV.forwardmsgfname { PADDING-RIGHT: 0px; PADDING-LEFT: 10px; PADDING-BOTTOM: 0.5em; FONT: bold 13px arial; COLOR: #333333; PADDING-TOP: 0.5em } #top_move1064193288 { VISIBILITY: visible } #top_move_select1064193288 { VISIBILITY: visible } #1064193288top_reply { VISIBILITY: visible } #1064193288top_reply_all { VISIBILITY: visible } #bottom_move1064193288 { VISIBILITY: visible } #bottom_move_select1064193288 { VISIBILITY: visible } #1064193288bottom_reply { VISIBILITY: visible } #1064193288bottom_reply_all { VISIBILITY: visible } #top_move_select1064193288 { VISIBILITY: hidden } #bottom_move_select1064193288 { VISIBILITY: hidden } Visit my websites! 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