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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Fri Jul 24 17:28:23 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6OMSM021161 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2009 17:28:22 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5846CB2812A; Sat, 25 Jul 2009 02:49:04 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 02:48:21 +0200 Message-ID: <20090725004821.3379.32440.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #161 - 7 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Gun Argument (Ste Ormerod) 2. Re: The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility (iPat) 3. Re: The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility (Tyler Murphy) 4. Re: Re: training here vs home (adam babb) 5. Heading home (Ray) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Ste Ormerod To: eskrima digest Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 08:06:32 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Gun Argument Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hello, Pat I thank you for your statistics. I stand corrected, the figures I used were from 2006/7. However, you still note that handgun crime - the arms that are banned - remained at the level from the previous year. If the ban was successful, that figure would be zero right? You are right that the illegal weapons in the UK came from the Eastern Bloc countries. However they are still here. I must say that your implication that shooting was a class thing is wide of the mark. Perhaps in your part of the world. In our club there certainly were a number of middle - upper class people, and they certainly outnumbered us working class people. But my father worked bloody hard on motorway maintenance, he hardly drank, never smoked and instead spent his hard earned money on me, my brother and keeping us out of trouble. By the same token, martial arts could be seen as a class thing. I agree with you and I fully understand your point of view in should the law change back I would go back to shooting. I also agree that at the moment it is illegal and I can assure everybody that in this respect I am fully complying with UK legislation. It would appear that we are all in agreement at heart, which is a refreshing change! Kind regards, Ste _________________________________________________________________ Windows Live Messenger: Celebrate 10 amazing years with free winks and emoticons. http://clk.atdmt.com/UKM/go/157562755/direct/01/ --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:48:28 +0100 Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility From: iPat To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I think its inverted Marc! By that i mean that - in the nicest possible way - you are the experiment! We have been in the same state to which the pilgrim fathers left these shores in 1620 to set up in what is now the US something better or fairer to what was here. The control of the population to protect the interests of the establishment was clearly the case when Henry VII banned private armies and current legislation is all about the control of population. The banning of hand guns to stop the rogue slaughter of children merely is a step towards populist totalitarianism or what some blame as the nanny state. But it always existed so it is simply playing out a role. We had Cromwells New Model Army sieze control in 1645, but it was the equivelent of the Taliban with its Puritan crusade and merely repackaged the staus quo. We are subjects here, although the term citizen is now applicable in newspeak( An Orwelian term used in 1984), but the vast amount of wealth is controlled by a small percentage of the population. The two minute hate ( An Orwelian term used in 1984) is currently focussed on extreme Islamisists to keep us in check and subservient to greater proliferation of civil right busting technology in the name of a war on terror. We need figures of hate to make us feel righteous. In the UK the last few decades, whilst we have seen wealth created on an unprecedented scale , Wealth inequality has increased keeping the staus quo in control * 93% of all wealth in 1999 was held by the top 50 per cent of the population. * In 1999 the top 10% of the population own over half of personal wealth. * Between 1988 and 1999 the top 1% of the population have increased their share of personal wealth from 17% to 23%, suggesting that wealth inequality is worsening. [http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=2] But the will of those to go to a land which would be fairer maybe isn't the case anymore. In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the nation's wealth So while we politely bicker over the right to defend ourselves and what that means, we ignore the fact that we are simply serfs to the rulers of our respective lands or proles as Orwell preferred. We look at our neighbour with suspicion, frightened that they may steal what is ours, paying protection money to the Lords which subjegates us further and sounds like a protection racke t from The Sopranos. We see the Governments in both countries give a helping hand to the bowler hats (bankers) but turn their backs on the hard hats. If we are serious about self defence then we have to address the distribution of wealth as most crime has its roots in poverty. For that the founding fathers meant well but it got hijacked along the line. IMHO! I dont suggest this is the place for this type of discussion, so i hope we can go back to topics more relavent. Peace to you all! On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Marc Denny wrote: > I certainly wish you guys well in your experiment, but fear that you will > come to regret it (criminal issues, social chaos, group conflicts) -- and > will find that if and when you do change your minds you will not be allowed > by your State to reverse directions and it will be too late. > > -- Pat Davies To discuss freedom is the first step towards denying it. Freedom cannot be prescribed, cannot be defined and cannot be conditional, for when it is any of these, it ceases to be freedom. Freedom is not open to discussion. --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 05:41:20 -0700 (PDT) From: Tyler Murphy Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Mr. Denny, Most have been sheep for a long time. The rest have buried their heads in the sand rather than watch what's coming. Tyler ----- Original Message ---- From: Marc Denny To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 1:49:04 PM Subject: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: Freedom and Responsibility Woof All: Concerning warrior culture, guns, etc: As usual, Pat expresses himself well. Speaking for myself, I watch the British case with much interest.  We descended from you and received our legal system from you.  Therefore intuitively it seems to me that what results from your experiments is of particular relevance to us- and perhaps vice versa.  Furthermore, like most Americans (and like most Brits I hope) I think there is a feeling of--  pardon the expression-- a "special relationship" between our two countries. More than once we have stood together as brothers in arms; most recently in Iraq and currently in Afghanistan.  In other words, in some sense there is simply "we" of something larger than "America" and "Great Britain".  That said, of course it is "Your house, your rules." Forgive me for using an American conceptual framework here, but IMHO our inalienable rights come from our Creator, not from the state.  Amongst them are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happines (cf. Aristotle).    Freedom and responsibility are a complementary duality-- the yin and yang of each other.  Conceptually I have a hard time of understanding how a man can have the right to life, yet be denied the means to practically defend that right. Freedom and Responsibility are the complementary duality (Yin and Yang) of an essential dynamic (the Tao).  If The State seeks to deny me from taking Responsibility for my Freedom by denying me the practical means of doing so, then it seems to me the State seeks to deny me my Freedom. I certainly wish you guys well in your experiment, but fear that you will come to regret it (criminal issues, social chaos, group conflicts) -- and will find that if and when you do change your minds you will not be allowed by your State to reverse directions and it will be too late. Although it often tries, the State cannot repeal the Law of Gravity.  The State cannot repeal the Law of Supply and Demand.  And the State cannot repeal the Right to Self Defense. The Adventure continues, Marc "Crafty Dog" Denny PS:  In the recent hearings in Washington DC over the nomination of Sotomayor to our Supreme Court I was flabbergasted by an exchange wherein she was asked whether there was a Constitutional right to self-defense. There most certainly is-- it is found in the Ninth Amendment:  "All rights not otherwise enumerated remains retained by the people".  Instead, she simply answered that that was an open question!  That this did not excite much commentary in the main-stream media (which I now refer to as American Pravdas , , , but I digress , , ,) I found quite depressing.  Are the American people becoming a sheeple? _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2009 21:17:52 -0700 (PDT) From: adam babb Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net a lot of what you say is probly true but it also varies with the student and teacher --- On Thu, 7/23/09, Ruel Apostol wrote: From: Ruel Apostol Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Thursday, July 23, 2009, 4:34 PM Very well said!  As a Filipino who was also Philippine trained and now based in the US, I agree to all points mentioned! ________________________________ From: maurice gatdula To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2009 12:49:20 PM Subject: [Eskrima] Re: training here vs home i was not going to answer this post, because i know some people are sensitive to my comments about american/western habits with the FMA. but i was asked to comment by a few students and friends... i will leave alone the "attitude" of how the arts are treated by each group, and only talk about the practices and what i see. 1. Filipino fma did not change much over the years, so what we see back home, except for the large groups and schools, is pretty much what our fathers and grandfathers saw when they were young. the FMa here in the US is very young, and has its own culture and traditions. the older i get i realize this, that FMA means something different to the filipino vs. what it means to the american. FMA growth here came through karate/TKD/kanpo/JKD schools, so these arts colored everything (most everything) we see in the FMA. i believe this why we like (in the US) our FMA too look and sound "authentic/archipelago/ancient", where the filipino will pose for arnis in a t shirt and jeans, and use spanish words. hey it is what it is, no shame. 2. filipino students usually look at what can i do for my teacher and my style, but american students look at, what can it do for me. this explains the "loyalty to teacher" disagreement with the "loyalty is stupid, i am the customer" people 3. in the philippines, lineage means nothing, but it means everything. in the US, lineage means everything, but it means nothing. ;-) -- in case that confused you, this is what i mean. to the filipino lineage in the martial arts is almost as important as your family lineage, for pride, love and belonging. but for your martial arts and fighting, its a "who cares?" thing. but to the american student, the lineage is where most people get their credibility and reputation ("certified by master so - n - so", or "master so n so said it, so it must be true) instead of building his own through his own accomplishments. but for purpose of family, beloning, etc., lineage is no different than a woman to a playboy... its just another notch on your belt. 4. in the philippines, teachers take baby steps to teaching a student skill. class is patience, and a teacher might spend only a few minutes with you and you spend the rest of the time training yourself. here in the US, class is slam bam thank you man, teacher is only going to be in town for one day, so lets absorb what we can as much as we can (drinking from a water hose?)... did anybody tape that? outside of, again, big schools and big name teachers, i would say that most filipino teachers will teach a few techs in one class and do it hundreds of times, where in the US they will give you a hundred techniques in one class. again, this is a cultural difference. in america we are busy, no time to wait for that sandwich , just give me a number 6 supersized. in the philippines, they will cook your food and you better wait or go some place else. so the level of learning patience reflected in the teaching habits. 5. most filipino teachers do not have a black belt (he might wear one, tho) or a certificate. american teachers usually have several belts and certificates 6. most filipino teachers believe in "sport".... sparring and tournament. teachers here train "for street" 7. every filipino teacher i know has a rival. even filipino teachers here in the US. we all have our bad guy, and we are not too shy to dislike somebody in the open. american teachers have lots of friends and get along with everybody--or at least they are nice to everybody (except on the internet) 8. filipino teachers are usually not too sure about if he is going to accept that next new student (does anybody know him?). here in the west, we advertise and hope to reach everybody 9. hard training is not for everyone vs. anyone can learn it 10. in the philippines your teacher will tell you, this style will beat everybody. in the US, your teacher will try to learn everything under the sun... and respect all martial artists! no superior styles only individuals 11. in the philippines, the student will stay longer, long after he learned everthing the teacher has in his curriculum. in the US if you dont teach fast/interesting/entertaining enough, they move one. once he achieve his rank, most students are out to the next school or he starts teaching himself. 12. ongoing training vs seminar training 13. we do what we do vs we do everything 14. that wont work against me vs i gotta learn that 15. i am a master, let me prove it to you vs always a student 16. my art is superior to yours vs everybody has his own path Visit my websites! www.typhoonma.comwww.filipinofightingsecretslive.com Mabuhay! Date: Tue, 21 Jul 2009 04:50:13 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] Training in PI vs the West Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Figured Id stir the pot once again.  I've had a number of experiences training in FMA both in the US and PI, experienced different styles, and views towards training, though my start down this path of FMA training was started here in the US.  For a long time I read posts from players in PI, talking about how it was different there than the US, and thought to myself well maybe for some schools, but we're different.  We work hard, we keep true to the spirit so to speak.  And well lo and behold, going to PI and getting the chance to experience FMA there, and well it was different.  Perhaps its the water, the balut, or the rice, but well players in PI just seemed to approach and do the art differently than those with only US training.  For me it was a big change in paradigm over what I was used to with the idea of "martial arts training", and was wondering how training compared for others who have trained both in PI and in the West? Sincerely Federico Malibago _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 5 From: Ray To: Eskrima-Digest Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 11:15:28 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Heading home Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Leaving for the mainland in a few hours. Great time here in Maui. Did teach a little eskrima on the beach, but mostly just enjoyed the island. Ray Terry EskrimaDigest@sbcglobal.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest