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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Sun Jul 26 14:32:07 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n6QJW6K28186 for ; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 14:32:06 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 7F05DB28140; Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:53:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 23:52:00 +0200 Message-ID: <20090726215200.5073.80861.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #163 - 10 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West - to jorge p. (jay de leon) 2. Pekiti Tirsia Intl. & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar Sunday 7/26 (Richie Acosta) 3. KATIPUNAN-2009 FLORIDA FREE FMA SEMINAR (gatpuno@aol.com) 4. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West - from someone who's never been to the west (Felipe Jocano) 5. Harmonization of Complementary Opposites Part 3 (Marc Denny) 6. RE: Harmonization of Complementary Opposites Part 3 (2@msfencing.org) 7. Re: Training in the PI verses training in the West - from someone who's never been to the west (jay de leon) --__--__-- Message: 1 Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 14:30:57 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West - to jorge p. To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net manong jorge:   very insightful post, as usual.  good points, especially the positive things to do when visiting the phil.   i also agree that your input is at least isang centimo (one cent) worth more than mine, but i doubt if anybody will fork over even limang centimo (5 cents) for either of our opinions.   for those that have the time, go read manong jorge's chronicle of his last philippine trip, and read how he practices what he preaches--pasalubongs (welcome gifts), deferential and respectful attitude toward fellow anisadors even if he is a master himself, etc.    http://www.filipinomartialartsmuseum.com/Articles/penafiel/fast-philippine-t rip.html     jay de leon www.tipunan.com --- On Fri, 7/24/09, jorge penafiel wrote: From: jorge penafiel Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West! To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Friday, July 24, 2009, 6:47 PM Greetings All !! Yup GREAT Thread/noteworthy points said about FMA Training in PI vs the West!! Specially picked Kapatid Maurice G. posts #1 & 2 as having the most candid coverage and comprehensive write up about the thread. It just about wisely covered and compared most things about FMA - the country and people, Culture/Norm,  the Art and it's multiple Systems, Lineage, Training, Teachers, Ranks, Purpose of venue, Applications, Weaponry to even include the modern firearms, legalities of the Art, and many more.  Well done and big applause to you Maurice!  You got me nodding and thinking more... Thus my take from the discussion and in imho, no doubt same as with any Martial Systems, guess the "Motherland"of the Art is by far the place to be and has the best to offer for those who seeks. There you go and so off to the Philippines for serious and fun training. Heck, you may even have the chance of a lifetime to "wrestle a Carabao"- lol!! By any chance though, bring Presents (pasalubong as a token of appreciation for having you there and first impression) and only the "Being nice, cordial, respectful, and humble baggage.  Don't even bring your school logo or sticks for that matter.  All things needed are there for your perusal. See, Pinoys are generally hospitable and nice up until a certain point, then it's big "problema Man" !! Just what my pal Jay de Leon had elucidated, be leary of the unknowns when visiting other places.  Usually,,,being nice begits nice returns as well!! My "tres centimos to Jay's dos centimos" to make it a whole sinko centimos!! Jorge Penafiel _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 2 From: "Richie Acosta" To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 17:11:17 -0500 Subject: [Eskrima] Pekiti Tirsia Intl. & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar Sunday 7/26 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Pekiti Tirsia Intl. & Kuntaw Kali Kruzada seminar Instructors: Tuhon Bill McGrath - Pekiti Tirsia International President/Chief Instructor Maestro Rico Acosta - Kuntaw Kali Kruzada Founder Seminar will cover: • SINGLE STICK • DOUBLE BASTON • ESPADA Y DAGA (SWORD AND DAGGER) • KNIFE TECHNIQUES • EMPTY HAND TECHNIQUES This seminar will provide a comparison of Filipino Kali techniques and applications as taught in Pekiti Tirsia International and Kuntaw Kali Kruzada respectively. All of the major aspects of Filipino Kali will be covered in this unique joint seminar with the heads of two internationally renowned systems of Filipino Martial Arts. Date: Sunday - July 26, 2009 Time: 12PM to 5PM Fee: $75 at the door $65 prepaid before July 1st (email kruzada@email.com for info) Location: Fighthouse 122 West 27th St. (between 6th and 7th Ave.) 2nd Floor Manhattan, NY Links: http://pekiti.com/ http://kuntawkali.com/ -- How Strong is Your Score? Click here to see yours for $0! By FreeCreditReport.com --__--__-- Message: 3 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sat, 25 Jul 2009 21:40:16 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] KATIPUNAN-2009 FLORIDA FREE FMA SEMINAR Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HELLO EVERYONE, KATIPUNAN 2009 (FILIPINO MARTIAL ARTS FLORIDA) SEPTEMBER 5-6, 2009(SATURDAY & SUNDAY) 8:OO AM – 5:00 PM T.Y. PARK at N. Park & Sheridan Hollywood,Florida   DON’T MISS THIS HISTORICAL EVENTS! “FREE SEMINAR FROM FLORIDA TOP FMA” Kombatan Arnis, Doce Pares, Defensor Method Kali, Inosanto Lacoste Kali, Talio System, Pambuan Arnis, CSSD, Modern Arnis, Pikiti Tirsia Kali, Serrada Eskrima, Garimot Arnis, & much more!!!   FILIPINO ARTS OF STICK & BLADES-KNIFE FIGHTING-KICKBOXING-WRESTLING/GRAPPLING, FORMS, & SELF DEFENSE   INSTRUCTORS: PG Roberto Torres, MG Nate Defensor, GM Bram Frank, Guro Lee Peacock, Guro John Malmo, Guro/Sifu Chad Bailey, Guro/SifuVictor Rivera, Guro Glenn Harris, Guro Libby Libbertucci, GP Abon “Garimot” Baet, and more   HOST: Gat Puno Abon”Garimot” Baet  Office: 954-432-4433    Mobile305-788-4403   E-mail:gatpuno@aol.com --__--__-- Message: 4 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 04:45:11 -0700 (PDT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West - from someone who's never been to the west To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Hi all. I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I think manongs Jay and Jorge and Maurice have made great points (and posts) about training here. I've never been to the west yet, so I can only share my limited viewpoint from someone who's never been out of his pond (but has email)... Manong Jay is right, the kind of awareness of many of the people I know who train in our local arts is the street kind of awareness - you prepare for the guy who ambushes you, who gets in your face, who wants to "play" with you.... well anyway, one of my friends told me of some guys he met once in Quezon Memorial Park, here in Quezon City...  they would practice their art in the park on weekend mornings and once in a while someone comes up and says, "Laro tayo." (Let's play). To which the answer is, "Ok. Anong gusto mo, palitan lang ng kaalaman o kanya-kanyang gamutan?" (OK. What do you want, exchange of knowledge or responsibility for your own injuries?) The first is friendly ( which can turn unfriendly quickly if you don't watch it), the second is all out fight until someone lands in the hospital or quits. Most of the time, people back down from the second option, but you never know. So for the non-natives here in this group, if you're visiting and a local asks you if you want to play, ask them what kind of play they want. Never never take for granted that what you guys there know as play is the same as play here. There's play that's like the playing kids do (for fun) and there's play that cats do with mice (which can be fun for the cat - better learn to be the cat). One of my teachers was in Luneta one morning when another eskrimador approached him and asked him about the style. His tone left a lot to be desired so the teacher showed him what it was about - the hard way (the stick is literally hard). The other guy was down on the ground before he knew what was happening. Moral of the story - watch your tone; do your best to find out the respectful way to ask questions. Maurice made some interesting points about how many eskrimadors will think to themselves I can take this guy. I will add that this applies even to practitioners of the same style but from different teachers. I had this happen to me once, a long time ago. I was visiting another branch of our association and I was told to do the two person exercise with one of the members there. The next thing I know he hit me on the hand. Later on, my teacher told me, "Hindi ka nila kilala, eh." (They don't know you). Better to get to know people first before playing with them.    Mentalities - I won't claim to be an authority...Over here, many people I know will train out of a perceived need for self-protection. It kind of shapes the way basic movements are approached. if the teacher will teach you to put the other fellow down with one stroke, then you train your stroke hundreds of times in the air, hundreds of times on the tire, hundreds of times with your partner (thousands is better, if you can avoid tennis elbow or other repetitive use injuries). The investment is worth it, because if you know what you are looking for in your training, you will see your stroke improving, especially with a partner. Plus, you remember your moves better. This kind of training is what will pull you through a situation if you find yourself in one. Going too fast through the curriculum and having a box mentality (I'm through with this box, let's move to the next) will not help you. After a while, it doesn't matter what style anymore, its who can deliver his/her strokes in an unstoppable manner. However, there are people who also train hard in FMA for stress relief. Makes me wonder why they they chose it, but hey different strokes for different folks ;-) I asked one of our university students and she gave this reason. For about a week. we were kidding her about "OK, imagine this is your teacher's face...now hit!" Wham!!!!! :-) talk about motivational enhancement... Competitions - this is a whole ''nother can of worms, but basically, the mentality in competitions is do unto others before they do unto you, do it better, do it where the ref don't see... One of my friends who was more active than I was in the competition scene showed us how to do legal moves that hurt like crazy. Which gives you an idea of how far the envelope is pushed in so-called "fair play." Another friend of mine was in a tournament and was facing a non-PInoy fighter. Now we were talking with this guy's group and basically the conversation was friendly enough until their names were called. Then the guy's girlfriend tells my friend, "I feel sorry for you, ____." My friend smiles, says nothing - and proceeds to beat the guy's hands, arms and elbows black and blue, with an occasional bash to the top of the helmet when his head went down. (we saw what they looked like afterwards. oh and there were stripes on his ribs too, from where the stick hit him between the flaps in the armor.) This was with live sticks, padded body armor, elbow and armguards and gloves. 3 minutes, 3 rounds. My friend won his match, and afterwards, the guys from the other side said, "wow, you hit hard." Later on, he told us (when it was just us) that he was pissed to put it mildly but kept his cool and played the game his way. Object lesson - keep your mouth shut or your friend pays the price.    Anyway, this is just my half-centavo's worth of comments. Bot --__--__-- Message: 5 From: "Marc Denny" To: Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 06:37:59 -0700 Subject: [Eskrima] Harmonization of Complementary Opposites Part 3 Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Woof Pat et al: My responses inserted below: > Message: 2 > Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2009 12:48:28 +0100 > Subject: Re: [Eskrima] The harmonization of completmentary opposites: > Freedom and Responsibility > From: iPat > I think its inverted Marc! > By that i mean that - in the nicest possible way - you are the experiment! In the sense you mean it, indeed we are the experiment -- and as long as we stay true to the American Creed upon which it is based all will be well I think. The experiment of yours to which I was referring though was that of unilateral disarmament. This is a separate matter entirely. > We have been in the same state to which the pilgrim fathers left these > shores in 1620 to set up in what is now the US something better or > fairer to what was here. The control of the population to protect the > interests of the establishment was clearly the case when Henry VII > banned private armies and current legislation is all about the control > of population. , , , > We are subjects here, although the term citizen is now applicable in > newspeak( An Orwelian term used in 1984), but the vast amount of > wealth is controlled by a small percentage of the population. The two > minute hate ( An Orwelian term used in 1984) is currently focussed on > extreme Islamisists to keep us in check and subservient to greater > proliferation of civil right busting technology in the name of a war > on terror. We need figures of hate to make us feel righteous. The reference to Orwell's two minutes of hate is apt. Unfortunately there seems to be a very real problem of religious Islamic fascism within the UK, Europe, and to a lesser extent the US. Maybe an armed free people would be of greater help than State cameras on every lamp post-- particularly with laws supportive of self-defense and stopping criminal activities? > In the UK the last few decades, whilst we have seen wealth created on > an unprecedented scale , Wealth inequality has increased keeping the > staus quo in control > * 93% of all wealth in 1999 was held by the top 50 per cent of the > population. > * In 1999 the top 10% of the population own over half of personal wealth. > * Between 1988 and 1999 the top 1% of the population have increased > their share of personal wealth from 17% to 23%, suggesting that wealth > inequality is worsening. > [http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=2] Maybe you need to another Margaret Thatcher? > But the will of those to go to a land which would be fairer maybe > isn't the case anymore. In the United States at the end of 2001, 10% > of the population owned 71% of the wealth, and the top 1% controlled > 38%. On the other hand, the bottom 40% owned less than 1% of the > nation's wealth My experience is that these numbers are often presented in highly misleading ways. For example, when President Reagan cut top tax RATES from 70% to 30% there was a tremendous uproar from the chattering classes about data that purported to show an increase in the concentration of wealth. However, upon examination it turned out that due to the lower tax rates "the rich" preferred to pull their money out of tax shelters and allowed it to be taxed. (e.g. A real estate tax shelter, which accelerated the non-cash expense of depreciation, now neutralized dollars that cost the taxpayer 70 cents per dollar under the 30% rate, instead of dollars that cost the taxpayer 30 cents per dollar under the 70% rate) > So while we politely bicker over the right to defend ourselves and > what that means, we ignore the fact that we are simply serfs to the > rulers of our respective lands or proles as Orwell preferred. We look > at our neighbour with suspicion, frightened that they may steal what > is ours, paying protection money to the Lords which subjegates us > further and sounds like a protection racke t from The Sopranos. We see > the Governments in both countries give a helping hand to the bowler > hats (bankers) but turn their backs on the hard hats. No argument from me that the liberal fascism of the Demogogues (a.k.a. Democrats) and the liberals (American use of the term here, not the correct Euro use) and the corporate fascism of the Patricians (a.k.a. the Republicans) both are contrary to free minds and free markets. What I don't follow though is how you get from this logic (e.g. paying protection money to the Lords) to opposing people having the tools to take responsiblity for protecting themselves! > If we are serious about self defence then we have to address the > distribution of wealth as most crime has its roots in poverty. For > that the founding fathers meant well but it got hijacked along the > line. IMHO! Disagree. Not only did our FF mean well, we DID well as long as we followed their wisdom. The pathologies of our underclass are not a result of poverty-- its poverty is a result of its pathologies. IMHO these pathologies have substantial roots in government meddling. Unfortunately it now appears we are in the process of throwing the baby out with the bath water. We got into our mess by government creating a massive credit bubble-- the Fed with negative interest rates (after inflation and taxes are calculated) and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac (which held some 60% of all mortgages at the time the bubble burst and now , , , who knows!!!) and with the mortgages thus guaranteed by the State, directing the private sector to lend to people who couldn't pay the loans back (the Community Reinvestment Act. So what is our current solution? Why, more of what got us where we are!!! More debt, more printing of money, more programs that separate people from the consequences of their own foolishness, fascist direction of business activity, taking over large swaths of the private sector, higher taxes, and a dollar soon to have banana republic status. > I dont suggest this is the place for this type of discussion, so i > hope we can go back to topics more relavent. Peace to you all! Ha! You started it! :-) I remember years ago Guro Inosanto saying that martial arts were routed in Love, starting with the belief that each of us was worthy of defending. When the State seeks to deny our fundamental human right to defend ourselves, it seems to me a subject well worthy and suitable for a list of people who seek the ability to take responsibility for defending themselves. It seems to me the very foundation of Freedom itself. Our rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness descend from our Creator, NOT the State. To pursue happiness, we must have freedom of choice. For the choice to be meaningful we must have freedom of speech. This is made real by separation of church and state--- and enforced by the arms of we the people. The Adventure continues! Marc/Crafty Dog > On Thu, Jul 23, 2009 at 6:49 PM, Marc Denny > wrote: > >> I certainly wish you guys well in your experiment, but fear that you will >> come to regret it (criminal issues, social chaos, group conflicts) -- and >> will find that if and when you do change your minds you will not be >> allowed >> by your State to reverse directions and it will be too late. --__--__-- Message: 6 From: <2@msfencing.org> To: Subject: RE: [Eskrima] Harmonization of Complementary Opposites Part 3 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 11:25:36 -0500 Organization: Mississippi Academy of Arms Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net >> Our rights to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness descend from our >> Creator, NOT the State. To pursue happiness, we must have freedom of >> choice. For the choice to be meaningful we must have freedom of speech. >> This is made real by separation of church and state--- and enforced by the >> arms of we the people. Separation of church and state, or separation of church from state? Blessings, Rez --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Sun, 26 Jul 2009 09:37:14 -0700 (PDT) From: jay de leon Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West - from someone who's never been to the west To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net hi bot:   good reminders from your side of the pond.   i notice a common theme from you and most everybody-- a little respect, awareness and common sense go a long way.    just one more anecdote.  you reminded me about tournaments.  they can be dangerous, too.  i was participating in a shorin-ryu tournament in manila in the very early 70's.  they were similar to the bare-knuckles, drag-out karate tournaments in the US Chuck Norris used to fight in.   anyway, one of our fighters was being outclassed. it was the break before the third and final round, and he was down like 5-0.  instead of the usual technical advice and exhortations, i heard the coach say, "tirahin mo na lang.  talo ka na naman."  "go ahead and hit (hurt) him.  you have lost the fight anyway."   jay de leon www.filipinofightingartsintl.com   --- On Sun, 7/26/09, Felipe Jocano wrote: From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] Training in the PI verses training in the West - from someone who's never been to the west To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Sunday, July 26, 2009, 4:45 AM Hi all. I've been reading this thread with great interest, and I think manongs Jay and Jorge and Maurice have made great points (and posts) about training here. I've never been to the west yet, so I can only share my limited viewpoint from someone who's never been out of his pond (but has email)... Manong Jay is right, the kind of awareness of many of the people I know who train in our local arts is the street kind of awareness - you prepare for the guy who ambushes you, who gets in your face, who wants to "play" with you.... well anyway, one of my friends told me of some guys he met once in Quezon Memorial Park, here in Quezon City...  they would practice their art in the park on weekend mornings and once in a while someone comes up and says, "Laro tayo." (Let's play). To which the answer is, "Ok. Anong gusto mo, palitan lang ng kaalaman o kanya-kanyang gamutan?" (OK. What do you want, exchange of knowledge or responsibility for your own injuries?) The first is friendly ( which can turn unfriendly quickly if you don't watch it), the second is all out fight until someone lands in the hospital or quits. Most of the time, people back down from the second option, but you never know. So for the non-natives here in this group, if you're visiting and a local asks you if you want to play, ask them what kind of play they want. Never never take for granted that what you guys there know as play is the same as play here. There's play that's like the playing kids do (for fun) and there's play that cats do with mice (which can be fun for the cat - better learn to be the cat). One of my teachers was in Luneta one morning when another eskrimador approached him and asked him about the style. His tone left a lot to be desired so the teacher showed him what it was about - the hard way (the stick is literally hard). The other guy was down on the ground before he knew what was happening. Moral of the story - watch your tone; do your best to find out the respectful way to ask questions. Maurice made some interesting points about how many eskrimadors will think to themselves I can take this guy. I will add that this applies even to practitioners of the same style but from different teachers. I had this happen to me once, a long time ago. I was visiting another branch of our association and I was told to do the two person exercise with one of the members there. The next thing I know he hit me on the hand. Later on, my teacher told me, "Hindi ka nila kilala, eh." (They don't know you). Better to get to know people first before playing with them.    Mentalities - I won't claim to be an authority...Over here, many people I know will train out of a perceived need for self-protection. It kind of shapes the way basic movements are approached. if the teacher will teach you to put the other fellow down with one stroke, then you train your stroke hundreds of times in the air, hundreds of times on the tire, hundreds of times with your partner (thousands is better, if you can avoid tennis elbow or other repetitive use injuries). The investment is worth it, because if you know what you are looking for in your training, you will see your stroke improving, especially with a partner. Plus, you remember your moves better. This kind of training is what will pull you through a situation if you find yourself in one. Going too fast through the curriculum and having a box mentality (I'm through with this box, let's move to the next) will not help you. After a while, it doesn't matter what style anymore, its who can deliver his/her strokes in an unstoppable manner. However, there are people who also train hard in FMA for stress relief. Makes me wonder why they they chose it, but hey different strokes for different folks ;-) I asked one of our university students and she gave this reason. For about a week. we were kidding her about "OK, imagine this is your teacher's face...now hit!" Wham!!!!! :-) talk about motivational enhancement... Competitions - this is a whole ''nother can of worms, but basically, the mentality in competitions is do unto others before they do unto you, do it better, do it where the ref don't see... One of my friends who was more active than I was in the competition scene showed us how to do legal moves that hurt like crazy. Which gives you an idea of how far the envelope is pushed in so-called "fair play." Another friend of mine was in a tournament and was facing a non-PInoy fighter. Now we were talking with this guy's group and basically the conversation was friendly enough until their names were called. Then the guy's girlfriend tells my friend, "I feel sorry for you, ____." My friend smiles, says nothing - and proceeds to beat the guy's hands, arms and elbows black and blue, with an occasional bash to the top of the helmet when his head went down. (we saw what they looked like afterwards. oh and there were stripes on his ribs too, from where the stick hit him between the flaps in the armor.) This was with live sticks, padded body armor, elbow and armguards and gloves. 3 minutes, 3 rounds. My friend won his match, and afterwards, the guys from the other side said, "wow, you hit hard." Later on, he told us (when it was just us) that he was pissed to put it mildly but kept his cool and played the game his way. Object lesson - keep your mouth shut or your friend pays the price.    Anyway, this is just my half-centavo's worth of comments. Bot _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest