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From eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net Wed Oct 21 08:08:25 2009 Return-Path: Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (tarsus.bollow.ch [82.195.230.222]) by plus11.host4u.net (8.11.6/8.11.6) with ESMTP id n9LD8Oa15107 for ; Wed, 21 Oct 2009 08:08:24 -0500 Received: from tarsus.bollow.ch (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by tarsus.bollow.ch (Postfix) with ESMTP id 15C90B28185; Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:43:03 +0200 (CEST) Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:42:09 +0200 Message-ID: <20091021154209.17001.22653.Mailman@tarsus.bollow.ch> From: eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net Subject: Eskrima digest, Vol 16 #231 - 9 msgs X-Mailer: Mailman v2.0.13.cisto1 MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Errors-To: eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net X-BeenThere: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.0.13.cisto1 Precedence: bulk Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net X-Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net List-Unsubscribe: , List-Id: Eskrima-FMA discussion forum, the premier FMA forum on the Internet. List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , Status: O X-Status: X-Keywords: Send Eskrima mailing list submissions to eskrima@martialartsresource.net To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to eskrima-request@martialartsresource.net You can reach the person managing the list at eskrima-admin@martialartsresource.net When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Eskrima digest..." <<---- The Sudlud-Inayan Eskrima/Kali/Arnis/FMA mailing list ---->> Serving the Internet since June 1994. Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. The Internet's premier discussion forum devoted to Filipino Martial Arts. 2700 members. Provided in memory of Mangisursuro Michael G. Inay (1944-2000). See the Filipino Martial Arts (FMA) FAQ and the online search engine for back issues of the Eskrima/FMA digest at http://MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! Today's Topics: 1. Knife Fight in Bacalod (Stephen Lamade) 2. Re: History of sparring in FMA (james jr. sy) 3. Re: History of sparring in FMA (Felipe Jocano) 4. sparring in FMA old way/GAT-Seminar in Chicago this weekend. (gatpuno@aol.com) 5. Re: History of sparring in FMA (Talibung Antike) 6. Re: sparring in FMA old way/GAT-Seminar in Chicago this weekend. (blillylou3@aol.com) 7. RE: How effective is it? (Eric Taimanglo) 8. A Glimpse of a real Knife Fight in Bacolod (Talibung Antike) --__--__-- Message: 1 From: Stephen Lamade To: Eskrima Digest Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 22:42:44 +0000 Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Fight in Bacalod Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net James wrote: "These individuals are not necessarily schooled in FMA. What fuels them is their guts and their willingness to kill and survive." Agreed. He'd already taken one hit (was that a rock or a piece of concrete?) and didn't pause to pick up his knife. Did you see the lady hand off the 2x4 (?) to her friend at 0:34? Nice duck under the strike at 0:38 though. He got lucky though: if he'd used a little footwork he'd have angled out altogether. (But I'm just armchair quarterbacking; whose to say my feet would move if someone swung a 2X4 at my head.) Hard to see if he thrust or slashed right after at 0:39 - 0:40. If he'd thrust tight and low at 0:39 he would have gutted the guy. Interesting to see "village elders" intercede at 0:43 - 0:50 and spin the kid around. Best, Steve --__--__-- Message: 2 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 17:16:32 -0700 (PDT) From: "james jr. sy" Subject: Re: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Based on my research and training and association with the different eskrimadores in the Visayas and to a little extent in Luzon:   1.  The original training method was outright sparring.  The old man gives you a stick, he strikes, and you defend.      2.  When the arnisador is already proficient, he "visits" other eskrimadors and "plays" with them.  The intensity and rules of these plays were established by the parties involved.    NOTE:  There were no protective gears used in nos. 1-2.    3.  As far as can be determined from records, Doce Pares started sparring with protective gear, which was later introduced in the first NARAPHIL tournaments.  4.  Flow drill type or prearranged sparring were also started/popularized by the Cebuanos. This becomes apparent when one inspects the training methods of the many Visayan teachers of Guro inosanto.    5.  The last phase is the evolution of the various padded sticks and protective gears used in FMA sparring.    I have these in more detail in my unpublished book.  Hope this helps.    James U. Sy Jr. Conceptual Martial Arts Society (CMAS), Inc.   --- On Tue, 10/20/09, Federico Malibago wrote: From: Federico Malibago Subject: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, October 20, 2009, 3:49 PM I was just curious, since there are many eskrimadors from many differing styles on this list, what is the history of sparring in FMA?  Ive read in some books, that true full contact free sparring (e.g. not a simple back and forth or give and take style drill such as flow sparring or sumbrada), is a newer innovation to FMA (e.g. not present in olden times). I've always been curious about this, given the great benefits of sparring, particularly regular sparring, and was wondering if anyone on the list had more information about when sparring, namely non-drill sparring, became a regular component in FMA circles. Sincerely Federico __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com --__--__-- Message: 3 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 00:29:06 +0000 (GMT) From: Felipe Jocano Subject: Re: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net HI, As far as I know, (which may not be much), free sparring in eskrima using armor and helmet goes back to around the late 1960s or 1970s (oldtimers help me out with the dates). Key people involved in this modality were the late GM Remy Presas and the Canetes of the Doce Pares (back in the Naraphil days). In particular, GM Presas believed that having protection was a great way to make spread eskrima, especially within the educational system, because then tournaments could be made safer. Again, other people here, especially those active during those times I mentioned, may know more. What I do remember and I think this was mentioned here in the group, was that during the prewar period, the closest thing to free sparring (and from there to tournament) was that both participants wore white and their sticks were blackened with ashes. Movement was controlled, and you knew who won or lost by the number of smudges left by the blackened stick (white clothes do not lie). Bot ----- Original Message ---- From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, October 20, 2009 3:49:19 PM Subject: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA I was just curious, since there are many eskrimadors from many differing styles on this list, what is the history of sparring in FMA? Ive read in some books, that true full contact free sparring (e.g. not a simple back and forth or give and take style drill such as flow sparring or sumbrada), is a newer innovation to FMA (e.g. not present in olden times). I've always been curious about this, given the great benefits of sparring, particularly regular sparring, and was wondering if anyone on the list had more information about when sparring, namely non-drill sparring, became a regular component in FMA circles. Sincerely Federico _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 4 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 19:52:30 -0400 From: gatpuno@aol.com Subject: [Eskrima] sparring in FMA old way/GAT-Seminar in Chicago this weekend. Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Frederico, History is start way back before Spanish arrive in the Philippines. This one of the reason why the Spanish authority forbids of the practice of any Recreational arts, 1610 they forbids the practice of this recreational arts gathering. They never mention Filipino Martial arts, yet Filipino understood these act from Spanish authority. To control the chances of revolts from the native against them Spaniards. Back on the days, Sparring is not a drills, the sparring is the what they call Laro or Play. When two skilled Eskirmador or Arnisador is start Zoning each other weather it will be Corto or Largo Mano. There not Pre-arrange drill, attack and I am defending, or vice versa. Up to this day the Sparring in Laguna are the same, if you come to a gathering of Eskrimador and you ask if you can play, get ready its a playtime, not drill times. Drill is done only during training. The sparring varies degree of toughness or lightness, if you like to play light, they will match you with lightness strike, but if you decide to be hard on them, the response is harder than you will ever expected. Take Note its No-padded live stick and no gear or body armor used up to this day back home in Laguna. Anyway, take this opportunity to invite everyone in Chicago area on my Seminar this weekend. Fonseca Martial Arts in Skokie, Il. E-mail me if you need more info. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Global Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation gatpuno@aol.com Cel. 305-788-4403 Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:49:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was just curious, since there are many eskrimadors from many differing styles on this list, what is the history of sparring in FMA? Ive read in some books, that true full contact free sparring (e.g. not a simple back and forth or give and take style drill such as flow sparring or sumbrada), is a newer innovation to FMA (e.g. not present in olden times). I've always been curious about this, given the great benefits of sparring, particularly regular sparring, and was wondering if anyone on the list had more information about when sparring, namely non-drill sparring, became a regular component in FMA circles. Sincerely Federico - --__--__-- Message: 5 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 17:36:34 +0800 (SGT) From: Talibung Antike Subject: Re: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Different categories of Eskrima Sparring or "Eskrimahay" here in our region of Panay: Friendly sparring between practitioners from the same system is a standard test of skill within the group, no protective pads and usually skinned rattan sticks are used until accuracy and control is mastered such that hardened rattan sticks are allowed. Bruises and welts are common but that is part of the exercise to get used to the pain and the fear of being hit. It can be situational or free flowing to get the real feel of timing, entries, feints, distancing, accuracy and control. No bone breaking strikes are employed although disarms, locks, and take downs to submission usually ends up the whole exercise. A wine liniment with herbs and concoctions to soothe the bruises must be handy and the teacher or an advanced student who has been taught of basic bone setting and hilot must be around. Hard sticks like, bahi, yaming, wooden blades then eventually live blades are also used as the practitioner gets advanced especially in disarming. Why live blades? The old masters always insist that it is only through the realization that one false or wrong move can get you wounded or get killed will one be able to understand and appreciate the true meaning of guts and courage in dealing with blades as well as accuracy, speed, timing and most importantly respect of the blade. Friendly sparring between eskrimadores who are friends from different systems are always welcome and usually over a "bol" of coconut wine or "tuba". Usually it starts with "muestrahanay" demonstration of each others techniques to solve a specific scenario or situational problem... sort of problem solving and exchange of ideas/techniques and learning experience not much of pride and ego trips. Usually this is between eskrimadores who know each other very well and have gained the respect and trust of each other. It is through these friendly sparrings that techniques common to different systems are transmitted and copied especially locks "tranka", "dakup" disarms and unlocks "lubad". Bruises and welts are not uncommon but since the nature is more of a friendly learning experience normally the one who surrenders or admits the superiority of the other's skill pays the bill of the "tuba" drink and the "sumsuman" Arranged challenge fights/sparring from different systems. Usually arranged by each other's students and followers, by common friends or common enemies and the bottomline is always a war of ego and pride of who is the best. It can be in ones turf, neutral ground or during an occasion like barangay or town fiesta arranged by an organizer or local executives such that the monetary reward/ pot money or trophy is just secondary to publicity mileage. Normally, the one who surrenders first is the loser otherwise a knockout, a submission or a bloody strike/s ends the fight. In some occasions, the bet can be a home lot, carabao, sacks of rice or chickens/sumsuman. But most often than not it is just a matter of pride and ego Duel - Eskrima fights. There are various factors that trigger these duels. Some by just pride, ego trip. But some are simply triggered by petty gossips, verbal altercation during a drinking session, land disputes, farm irrigation water supply, strayed pets,  or family feud and the like. Usually if not bahi or yaming, bladed weapons are used either a Talibung, Ginunting, Lantip or Lugod knife. These duels are still common in the interior towns and hinterlands of Panay even in this modern day and age and some do it in the name of honor, pride, justice and dignity. The advent of padded sticks and armors used in the sportive setting and environment are the recent development 1970s as the government and some well organized Arnis/Eskrima Organizations take active roles in the propagation of Arnis/Eskrima en mass as a competitive sport among the children and youth alike locally and globally. It has its own merits especially in the earlier stage of ones journey in FMA but it has its demerits too as one progresses beyond sportive competition. Anyhow Eskrima Tradionalists still believe that the age old traditional way is still irreplaceable for serious Eskrima enthusiasts if Eskrima is to be practiced and perpetuated as a "Filipino Warriors Arts and Science"- (FMAS) "Filipino Mandirigmang Agham at Sining". Bow, Talibung Antike --- On Tue, 10/20/09, Federico Malibago wrote: From: Federico Malibago Subject: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Tuesday, 20 October, 2009, 7:49 AM I was just curious, since there are many eskrimadors from many differing styles on this list, what is the history of sparring in FMA?  Ive read in some books, that true full contact free sparring (e.g. not a simple back and forth or give and take style drill such as flow sparring or sumbrada), is a newer innovation to FMA (e.g. not present in olden times). I've always been curious about this, given the great benefits of sparring, particularly regular sparring, and was wondering if anyone on the list had more information about when sparring, namely non-drill sparring, became a regular component in FMA circles. Sincerely Federico _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net New Email addresses available on Yahoo! Get the Email name you've always wanted on the new @ymail and @rocketmail. Hurry before someone else does! http://mail.promotions.yahoo.com/newdomains/ph/ --__--__-- Message: 6 To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: Re: [Eskrima] sparring in FMA old way/GAT-Seminar in Chicago this weekend. Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 03:43:09 -0400 From: blillylou3@aol.com Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Aloha Bradda.My name is Brent Cash I am a student of GM Bandalan ,Bandalan Doce Pares I would be honored to play and share knowledge -Brotherhood. My 16 year old son Branden also will participate. It is GM's Bandalans teaching that we must cross sticks to be an escrimadore I respectfully understand what you are looking for not many understand the beauty in play .To many drills good for our curriculum but small part in the end. Any way I am a police officer in Monee IL #101 and I work afternoons with fri sat off. Please send directions as we would love to participate. Mahalo and Aloha Brent Kualoha Cash -----Original Message----- From: gatpuno@aol.com To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Sent: Tue, Oct 20, 2009 6:52 pm Subject: [Eskrima] sparring in FMA old way/GAT-Seminar in Chicago this weekend. Frederico, History is start way back before Spanish arrive in the Philippines. This one of the reason why the Spanish authority forbids of the practice of any Recreational arts, 1610 they forbids the practice of this recreational arts gathering. They never mention Filipino Martial arts, yet Filipino understood these act from Spanish authority. To control the chances of revolts from the native against them Spaniards. Back on the days, Sparring is not a drills, the sparring is the what they call Laro or Play. When two skilled Eskirmador or Arnisador is start Zoning each other weather it will be Corto or Largo Mano. There not Pre-arrange drill, attack and I am defending, or vice versa. Up to this day the Sparring in Laguna are the same, if you come to a gathering of Eskrimador and you ask if you can play, get ready its a playtime, not drill times. Drill is done only during training. The sparring varies degree of toughness or lightness, if you like to play light, they will match you with lightness strike, but if you decide to be hard on them, the response is harder than you will ever expected. Take Note its No-padded live stick and no gear or body armor used up to this day back home in Laguna. Anyway, take this opportunity to invite everyone in Chicago area on my Seminar this weekend. Fonseca Martial Arts in Skokie, Il. E-mail me if you need more info. Gat Puno Abon "Garimot" Baet Garimot Arnis Training Global Laguna Arnis Federation International Harimaw Buno Federation gatpuno@aol.com Cel. 305-788-4403 Message: 3 Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2009 03:49:19 -0400 (EDT) From: Federico Malibago To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] History of sparring in FMA Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net I was just curious, since there are many eskrimadors from many differing styles on this list, what is the history of sparring in FMA? Ive read in some books, that true full contact free sparring (e.g. not a simple back and forth or give and take style drill such as flow sparring or sumbrada), is a newer innovation to FMA (e.g. not present in olden times). I've always been curious about this, given the great benefits of sparring, particularly regular sparring, and was wondering if anyone on the list had more information about when sparring, namely non-drill sparring, became a regular component in FMA circles. Sincerely Federico - _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net --__--__-- Message: 7 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 09:16:07 +0300 From: "Eric Taimanglo" To: Subject: [Eskrima] RE: How effective is it? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Message: 1 From: Andrew Maddox To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Date: Mon, 19 Oct 2009 19:12:43 -0400 Subject: [Eskrima] Re: How effective is it? Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net On Oct 19, 2009, at 4:35 AM, Eric Taimanglo wrote: > -----Original Message----- > Hi Darcy, > > Let's establish your baseline and go from there. > > Respectfully, > > Eric > Taji Kali Group/Kitchen Sink Combatives Hey, Eric - stayin' safe over there? Keep it up, I used to wear the tree suit myself back in another century. But yes, we have to know what Darcy means by everything to even start to answer. Me, I'd just say "no, it's totally useless, you should go study karate at your closest mcDojo." Love the name, by the way - Kitchen Sink Combatives, very nice! --------------------------------------------------- Hey, Andrew, thanks for the concern, all is well here in Wonderland. For now, anyway. Shudders at the McDojo comment; when I was on leave a few months ago, went shopping for a good school for my nephew, who's a pretty smart kid, straight A's and all, and I wanted to get him started on martial arts to round him out; showed him a few basic stick movements, then figured out that I'm not going to be around to show him everything, so we went dojo shopping; found a place that did "brand X", mostly because it was close to the house. Dude. Kids (all 7-8 graders, I think) hitting each other with pool noodles blindfolded. The instructor talking about how, in the Black Belt club, they started learning the language of Brand X's country of origin. So, now my nephew is learning Krav Maga from a local LEO. I hope Darcy isn't turned off by the replies here; hell, I used to have the same questions, I think most of us did when we first started out. Glad you like the name! Guess I need to trademark the thing now before it's too late =) Eric Taimanglo MWR Coordinator KBR Unit 6012 APO AE (713) 445 4857 This e-mail, including any attached files, may contain confidential and privileged information for the sole use of the intended recipient. Any review, use, distribution, or disclosure by others is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient (or authorized to receive information for the intended recipient), please contact the sender by reply e-mail and delete all copies of this message. --__--__-- Message: 8 Date: Wed, 21 Oct 2009 13:10:45 +0800 (SGT) From: Talibung Antike To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Subject: [Eskrima] A Glimpse of a real Knife Fight in Bacolod Reply-To: eskrima@martialartsresource.net Here's a live footage of real life knife fight (among teens) in Bacolod City Philippines http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TY1kpFRCTvg Mind you these are kids are not formally trained in FMA but armed and dangerous... Last February 2009 in the High School Junior-Senior Prom of the school where I use to attend in Northern Antique my cousin who was in-charged with the security confiscated more than 40 assorted knives/blades and ice pick from out of about 120 participants who attended the Prom of which about 50% are boys. I was not surprised but alarmed by the percentage. That's a reality to us here in this part of the Philippines, a not so good environ that we've to accept and deal with gracefully everyday. Regards, Talibung Antike --- On Tue, 10/20/09, Stephen Lamade wrote: From: Stephen Lamade Subject: [Eskrima] Knife Fight in Bacalod To: "Eskrima Digest" Date: Tuesday, 20 October, 2009, 10:42 PM James wrote: "These individuals are not necessarily schooled in FMA.  What fuels them is their guts and their willingness to kill and survive." Agreed.  He'd already taken one hit (was that a rock or a piece of concrete?) and didn't pause to pick up his knife.  Did you see the lady hand off the 2x4 (?) to her friend at 0:34? Nice duck under the strike at 0:38 though.  He got lucky though:  if he'd used a little footwork he'd have angled out altogether. (But I'm just armchair quarterbacking; whose to say my feet would move if someone swung a 2X4 at my head.) Hard to see if he thrust or slashed right after at 0:39 - 0:40.  If he'd thrust tight and low at 0:39 he would have gutted the guy.  Interesting to see "village elders" intercede at 0:43 - 0:50 and spin the kid around. Best, Steve _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list, 2,700 members Eskrima@martialartsresource.net Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry and Martial Arts Resource Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net ____________________________________________________________________ _____ Try the new Yahoo! Messenger 10 Beta. Now with real-time updates, enhanced video-calls and more! Check it out at http://ph.messenger.yahoo.com/ --__--__-- _______________________________________________ Eskrima mailing list Eskrima@martialartsresource.net http://martialartsresource.net/mailman/listinfo/eskrima Subscribe or Unsubscribe: http://eskrima-fma.net Old digest issues @ ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com/pub/eskrima Copyright 1994-2009: Ray Terry, MartialArtsResource.com, Sudlud.com Standard disclaimers apply. Creative Commons Attribution-Noncommercial-Share Alike 3.0 United States License. Remember September 11. End of Eskrima Digest