From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #6 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 7 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 006 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #5 the_dojang: e-mail addrs the_dojang: Enjoyed the story the_dojang: Class Size Limits the_dojang: ATA the_dojang: camoflauge belts/Mike Bradley the_dojang: Re: ATA ranks the_dojang: Standardization and Certification the_dojang: Re: ATA religion??? the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Chuck Sears Date: Wed, 06 Jan 1999 21:36:12 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #5 > ------------------------------ > > From: Mike Bradley > Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 14:39:44 -0800 (PST) > Subject: the_dojang: camoflauge belts > > >* Camoflauge belt - most outsiders think it's silly. Always a point > of conversation. But it doesn't really hurt anything. Kids like it.< > > Where in the ATA does a Camoflauge belt rank? What keup would that > be? > Our ranking system is: 9th (grade)White Orange through 2nd Black 8th Orange can be Recommended or Decided, 7th Yellow which is like a half-step between ranks. 6th Camo From 3rd Degree up, there are no 5th Green half steps. 4th Purple 3rd Blue 2nd Brown 1st Red 1st Degree Recommended Black (half red, half black) 1st Degree Decided Black (all solid Black Belts from here on) IIRC, they chose the color based upon a survey. A lot of people got really torqued about the Camo belt when it was introduced, some even to the point of leaving the organization. Hey, like it matters. ATA could have chosen a polka-dotted belt for all I care. The belt colors are simply a visual guide to the student's progress toward Black Belt, which is the ultimate goal. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 20:32:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: e-mail addrs Re the question about the missing addrs from some e-mail headers... Yes, we're still working on it. Several folks have looked into it (including me), but none have figured it out yet. One of these days... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 00:09:23 EST Subject: the_dojang: Enjoyed the story In a message dated 99-01-06 21:57:02 EST, you write: << Hi folks. OK...for those of you that missed it....take a look at this and then post your comments: http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/Pagoda/9536/chang.html John Hancock >> I enjoyed it John. Good job, and thanks for telling us about it! Alain Burrese ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:18:08 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Class Size Limits >Yeah I know you'll probably say - "you've got to be kidding!!," >but I'm serious. Do any schools/instructors put enrollment limits >to their classes or their more popular time slots - 20, 30, 80 >students??? Do you ever reach a saturation point where your teaching is >adversely affected because of too big classes or maybe not enough help >or are you able to accommodate everyone that enrolls. Yes, I currently have a limit on my class for very young kids (ages 4 and 5). The limit is six kids to one teacher, and currently, there is only one teacher (me). What really kills me is that I have had parents try to enroll kids as young as 2 (yes, TWO) years old in martial arts -- and they have gotten unbelievably argumentative when I tell them that I do not accept children that young! Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX, USA ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Wed, 6 Jan 1999 23:19:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: ATA > >* Now has a large collection of seminars/curriculum on weapons and > training suppliments such as: > - single and double escrima sticks > - single and double nunchaku > - long staff > - self-defense with a hooked cane (really cool and fun) > - knife throwing (??? this one is new to me ???) > - joint manipulation > - ground fighting (learned from Gracies) > - Sexual Harrassment Awareness and Rape Prevention (SHARP) > - Pressure Point Control Tactics (PPCT) > - cardio kickboxing aerobics > - Most of these (if not all) ATA developed as programs by learning > from Masters of other arts/orgnaizations > >* Recently added Tai-Chi clinics > >* Recently added Olympic-style sparring clinics (I wouldn't be surprised > to see Black Belts sparring this way in ATA tournys in the future) DISCLAIMER: I am not a TaeKwon-Do person of any flavor. While I find much of the above laudable, the problem in it that I see is that the ATA is trying to be all things to all people: (Korean) TaeKwon-Do... with newly-invented forms, Filipino weapons, Japanese weapons, Brazilian ground fighting, aerobics, Chinese Tai Chi... does this not sound like a problem? Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX ------------------------------ From: "Lasich, Mark D." Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 09:00:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: camoflauge belts/Mike Bradley In response to Mr. Bradley: The camoflauge belt in the ATA is the fourth belt (White, Orange, Yellow, CAMO, Green, Purple, Blue, Brown, Red)! It equates to 6 gup! ALSO, 9 is a very significant number in the ATA. The introduction of the Camo, Purple and Brown belts allow there to be 9 Gup belts to go along with the 9 Black Belt degrees! The color is significant in the life of the "Pine Tree" (it IS SongAhm TKD, Pine Tree TKD after all). The "sapling" is growing among other saplings and striving to grow taller (learn more) and rise above the current level of knowledge! FWIW: The entire belt spectrum is a chronology of the life of a pine tree from white, pure without knowledge - to red, the setting of the sun over a maturing pine tree that is on the verge of breaking through the darkness (black belt). Yes, I agree, ATA is very commercial. BUT do not ever doubt the sincerity of its practioneers and the wealth of symbolism that this Email can only begin to touch on! Few students are aware of the symbolisms, fewer yet even ask! Why isn't it taught more? Perhaps the ATA is only responding to what the student's have expressed they want to get out of their training! In the spirit of TKD... Mr. Lasich - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ - -------------------- Mark D. Lasich Email: Mark.Lasich@alcoa.com Phone: (724) 337-5702 Fax: (724) 337-2394 *** I asked for everything so I could enjoy life. Instead, He gave me life so I could enjoy everything. - Unknown author. *** ------------------------------ From: jberwin@sc45.dseg.ti.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:10:23 -0600 (CST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA ranks >Where in the ATA does a Camoflauge belt rank? What keup would that >be? 9 - White 8 - Orange 7 - yellow 6 - camoflauge 5 - green 4 - purple 3 - blue 2 - brown 1 - red 1st degree recommended black belt -- half-red/half-black 1st degree decided & up -- black ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 10:17:15 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Standardization and Certification Karla mentioned that: Again, it depends ont he organization. I had the opportunity to interview Joe Lewis, the kick-boxing champion, last summer. He was talking about how he is concerned that any yahoo (my word, not his) can open a martial arts school and was trying to establish a board of people that would "police" the martial arts. Instructors could go in for training and certification, there would be a complaint/investigative division, etc. I got the impression that he would like the industry to start policing themselves before the government steps in and does it for them. My personal opinion of Mr. Lewis and kick-boxing aside, he is on to something. My response: Personally, this sort of thing worries me. I know that the folks at _Martial Arts Professional_ are talking it up and it is all connected with EFC's efforts to turn martial arts into a predictable business. Unfortunately, and with due apology beforehand to the folks in the U.K., I've seen some of the black belts from Great Britain and I wasn't really pleased. Maybe I just haven't seen the right ones yet, but it seems to me that being state certified means that the biggest federations will dominate and when this happens, the bureaucracy of these organizations will make change very difficult. Who is in charge? In T'aekwondo is it the ITF, WTF, ATA, or another organization? If the ITF and WTF can't get together now, why would they do so on a certification board? How do you allow variation with groups like Choi Kwan Do and other smaller organizations? Each instructor has different aims in mind in his or her instruction, and standardization does not allow that. You simply CAN'T train for self-defense, competition, health, and spiritual well-being all at the same time. Sorry for this heresy, but it's true. If you train for self-defense, you train high risk techniques in a low risk environment. If you train for competition, you train low risk techniques in a high risk environment. If you train for health, you train low risk techniques in a low risk environment. Emphasize one, and you de-emphasize another. I think standardization and certification is good for large federations (good revenue builder) and for beginning students (not as many surprises), but I can also guarantee that it will not be the very best martial artists who run the certification board. The best martial artists will be too busy training and developing skill in technique. It will be the second echelon of martial artists, those who are skilled enough or simply have enough business and organizational savvy to put it together. Don't get me wrong, organization is very important (it's what I'm good at), but I would rather have an open market where you may have some really lousy instructors, but you will also still be able to find some incredible gems as well. No matter how long you train, there is always something you don't know and can learn in the martial arts. That's what makes the arts so much fun. But keeping that in mind, how will anyone be able to decide what is or is not important? Sorry to run on. This subject just worries me a lot -- I am very much an advocate of having the freedom to explore other arts, other styles, and other ideas. take care, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Paul Rogers Date: Thu, 07 Jan 1999 09:49:48 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA religion??? > From: jberwin@sc45.dseg.ti.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) > * Now has a large collection of seminars/curriculum on weapons and > training suppliments such as: > - [list snipped] I also saw an ATA school's website where the 3-section staff was mentioned. > * Recently added Tai-Chi clinics Oooh, tell me more (if you have additional info.)...! One thing about the ATA (for lower ranks, anyway) is that there is only emphasis on the external/conditioning/non-ki elements of martial arts. That's why I supplement my ATA practice with (Yang) Tai Chi. I hope the ATA version is not just the "Beijing 24". > * Recently added Olympic-style sparring clinics (I wouldn't be surprised > to see Black Belts sparring this way in ATA tournys in the future) I'm trying to incorporate a double kick in my sparring. I've already had one instructor remark that the first kick (round to the side or back) was illegal. I'm sure I could defeat a true Olympic-style opponent with this already; they'd be easy to dispatch, since they'd be rolling on the ground, laughing uncontrollably...8?). > * Formal instructor certification curriculum and training procedure I like this aspect of the organization, though it, too, can be pricey. > * Too easy to get to 1st degree black belt (in some schools). See > the above statement. I've worried about this, too. However, after 1st dan, the quality of practitioner seems to go way up. I just try not to worry about others, and just be sure that I feel good about my progress. Another advantage is the family-oriented atmosphere. The initial reason I chose an ATA school after moving to Texas was because they had no problem with, and, in fact, encouraged, kids training with their parents in the "Adult" classes. This probably dilutes the training, but it keeps my kid practicing (and enjoying it), and that's a high priority for me.... Paul Rogers, Round Rock, TX ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 7 Jan 1999 08:05:28 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #6 ****************************** Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.