From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #12 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 11 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 012 In this issue: the_dojang: GM Takeda Interview the_dojang: Re Mr Chuck Sears the_dojang: Kuk Sool sparring competition the_dojang: fighter vs artist the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #11 the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #10 the_dojang: Re: Color of the Month the_dojang: Re: ATA/Kukkiwon connection the_dojang: Too controlled in kicks the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Eduardo Miranda Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:34:53 -0200 Subject: the_dojang: GM Takeda Interview Hapkido stilysts may enjoy this, a very comprehensive interview with GM Takeda's son talking about his father and the daito-ryu aikijitsu art. Although he didn't say anything about GM Choi, or Hapkido it's interesting to know more about GM Takeda, which teach both GM Choi and GM Ueshiba (Aikido father) Take a look! ------------------------------ From: Eduardo Miranda Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 17:41:10 -0200 Subject: the_dojang: Re Mr Chuck Sears > Now I have to believe that this message was posted with a true lack of knowledge about the ATA, other than what Mr. Miranda and > others have read in this newsgroup and the conclusions that have been jumped to. The Amway wisecrack is a perfect demonstration of > this. > > The ATA is a VERY traditional martial arts organization > > I don't want to be an artist. > > I train to be an effective fighter. > > I go to church to learn how to become a better person. > > Is that wrong? > > Well, the key to both those questions is the same. The first A stands for > "American." > This is what we Americans do best. Take what is useful, regardless of > "tradition" (which is usually considered a four letter word here in the > states) and pull it out and turn it to our benifit. > I am really sorry about Mr. Sears, I've never meant to diminish ATA or your Teakwondo. What you posted really differ from the others guys of your organization, maybe I am assuming these opinions are ATA and not from the person himself. I apologize if I've said something wrong. ------------------------------ From: Eduardo Miranda Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 18:54:28 -0200 Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sool sparring competition Does someone in this list is a Kuk Sool stylist? I've read in a mag about a Kuk Sool sparring competition, there isn't Kuk Sool in Brazil and I got curious about how can a such comprehensive art have sparring competition. Any one could tell me the rules of these competition? Are kicks, punches, throws and joint locks aloud? Eduardo Miranda ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 11:44:51 PST Subject: the_dojang: fighter vs artist I don't want to be an artist. I train to be an effective fighter. I go to church to learn how to become a better person. Is that wrong? John Bennett +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ It's not wrong because it's not a matter of right or wrong, only a matter of personal preference which some may choose to have a philosophical and even spiritual debate on. Actually some people would even challenge that fighting is an art as well as a sport. But then that's another debate on linguistics. Although I am very spiritual I in no way think that church is the only medium available to become a better person any more than I think the martial arts is the only way to achieve growth or effective fighting techniques. The only thing I would hope we could provide to each other as we strive to find our own truths is respect. I don't need to understand why you are in the martial arts although I may want to because I find it fascinating and it may help increase my own knowledgebase; any more than you need to explore my reasoning for my participation in the arts. And what my reasonings were when I first started the arts are now completely different as I have learned and aged. Freedom of choice is a great thing to have is it not? I wish you well in your quest to become a great fighter. Jamaica ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 15:23:14 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #11 > From: Chuck Sears > Date: Sat, 09 Jan 1999 12:16:45 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #10 > To re-explain the seniority fees that led to the Amway crack about pyramid schemes - please go back and re-read the original post. > Seniority fees are paid to the instructor who taught you how to be an instructor, no one else. Amway has a kickback scheme where > you get credits for people developed by people developed by people that you developed; ATA doesn't. If I, running school A, > develop one of my Black Belt students into a certified instructor, who opens his own school (B) and develops a student into a > certified instructor who then opens his own school (C), I do not receive seniority fees for testings in school C. Keep in mind > that the seniority fee is an honorarium, nothing more. Well...it seem the ATA has taken a bashing lately on the Digest. And, obviously, my jest has added fuel to the discussion. Should I apologize? No...I think not...but not for the reasons you may suspect. I made the comment in jest because on the surface the ATA does appear to have a pyramid reward system. But...as Mr. Sears points out....this is misleading. If you are an ATA black belt and you open a school...when you submit your fees for cerfication and testing...a small amount is paid to your immediate instructor. Then if you train 5 black belts that go on to open their own schools...they in turn pay in their fees and you get a small amount as a return upon your investment in these black belts. Now when each of these 5 black belts trains a black belt themselves and they open schools...they in turn pay in fees and they receive the same from those under them...however, you receive nothing. Because you were not directly responsible for their development. I have to admire the wisdom of this concept to break the chain in this way. I myself have been criticized for my research and questions into the past of Grandmaster Hwang Kee (I'm a TSD guy). The criticism is that I am an ingrate and disrespectful to the Grandmaster who gave me soooo much. But...I never studied under GM Hwang. In fact...even though I trained in dojang in Korea where he kept his office (Huam Dong), I was never there when he was there (just worked out that way...our schedules were different). SO I never even met the man. But...as a researcher...I cannot exclude question or areas of examination simply because of his placement in the organization. Actually, under Kibun...he and I are non-persons to one another...and I really have no such obligation except under the Confucian rules of organizations (which don't apply nowadays). But...I digress. The point here is...there is really nothing wrong with the ATA's reward system. If someone was directly responsible to your own training and development...you honorably do have an obligation to that person...and a small kick back to them is not inappropriate. However...just because your instructor may have this obligation...does not mean you do. Your obligation is to your OWN instructor. Even if your knowledge and skill come indirectly from HIS teacher. You can't follow two Masters. Anyone who has been in the Military knows the chaos that can come from having a Sergeant give you an order, then have some Lt. come along and change it, then some Capt. changes that...then the Sergeant comes back and find the task is not done yet and goes bullistic! So..should I apologize for stirring the hornets nest with my comment? NO! It got people to examine the area of inquiry. Tell the truth....how many of you even knew the ATA had such a reward system in place before this discussion took place on the Digest?! The Digest...once again....serves its funtion (wink-n-nod to Ray). > ATA seems to get a lot of negative postings like the one I'm responding to, and they are from people who do not understand what we > are about. Might I respectfully suggest that you join the organization and learn about it before you badmouth it? OK Mr. Sears...I will put you to the test on this. How can I...Master John Hancock...join the ATA? Further....what will I obtain from this membership? Will you actually allow me to come in...ask questions...get answers...study your practices...examine your forms? The ball is tossed back to you. John Hancock 4th Dan, TSD ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:25:56 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #10 >When someone look for a martial art he is usually looking for tradition also, >not only workout and self-defense. If you don't >train wishing to reach a higher level as humam being you're not a martial >artist, you a only a figther. If is that you guys are >looking for (I sincerely doubt) you better stop using "DO" in your name, >because this is a way to nowhere. What is a tradition in martial arts? Should we still use for example old training methods because they have been used for years? Should we not be allowed to look for things supplementing our style because they are not a part of its tradition? I agree that we should look not only for physical fitness, but also for spiritual development. But will adding some Eskrima practice to our Taekwondo training destroy our spiritual development? I doubt so. To me, lack of respect to each other, poorly organized tournaments, political wrangles in the art are much more dangerous than adding weapons classes or ground fighting seminars to our TKD. We are traditional because there is a mutual respect between student and teachers, we still do classical patterns, be it Chon Ji, SongAhm or Taegeuk, we wear our doboks, but we are human beings and we just can`t say "don`t learn this because it`s not a part of Taekwondo tradition". My school host seminars for Hapkido and Aikido, I use Eskrima drills during classes since I feel they are great for coordination, though being WTF affiliated we still enter ITF styled or open tournaments. And we are still Taekwondo students... - -- Piotr Bernat - ------------------ [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Popieraj tansze rozmowy - kup zestaw POP dzialajacy w sieci IDEA Promocyjna sprzedaz w naszym sklepie internetowym: http://sklep.centertel.pl - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 21:30:38 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Color of the Month >As we're talking about camo colored belts which I didn't know about I >now wonder what the color of preference is for uniforms. Are black and >white still the norm??? In my country (Poland), the only TKD organisation allowing coloured doboks on the tournaments is the Global Taekwondo Federation (GTF). When you are competing in ITF or WTF events (no more groups in Poland), you have to wear the prescribed ITF or WTF style suits. In my school (WTF), most students wear WTF uniforms and so do I. There are also some wearing Karate gis or ITF doboks from their previous schools, but they are not allowed on the national level events. I also allow to wear coloured pants because some of the gyms we rent from schools are not especially clean, and black pants are simply more practical (in Poland, most clubs rent the gyms for hours in public schools and there are veeeery few ones with own dojangs). Sometimes I also wear my old "traditional style" uniform (black edged Moo Duk Kwan sang-i and black ha-i) from my old school which I especially like (and it`s better for Hosinsul for it`s heavy fabric:-). - -- Piotr Bernat - ------------------ [ REKLAMA / ADVERTISEMENT ] ----------------- Popieraj tansze rozmowy - kup zestaw POP dzialajacy w sieci IDEA Promocyjna sprzedaz w naszym sklepie internetowym: http://sklep.centertel.pl - ---------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 10 Jan 1999 16:00:40 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: ATA/Kukkiwon connection Mr. Miranda: In the last issue of Taekwondo Times, GM Lee stated the ATA has no relationship with the WTF but has a relationship with the Kukkiwon. This was not explained in the article. Could you explain this? I do not have the article in front of me, but recall that GM Lee has set up an organization in Korea to help Korean instructors with running a business. Thank you in advance, Peter M. ------------------------------ From: "Graham Hills" Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 08:04:37 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Too controlled in kicks I am hoping someone on the list can suggest some drills to help a student. The student does all her techniques very well except that their is no explosive force in them. They are performed as if they were dance moves. I have tried many things and am unable to change this manner. Any input will be most welcome. Thanks Graham ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 10:16:23 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #12 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.