From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #16 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 12 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 016 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: the other athlete the_dojang: Re: Condolences.... the_dojang: fighter vs. artist the_dojang: WTF tournament death the_dojang: Tradition Re: the_dojang: WTF tournament death the_dojang: Re: Joining new organization the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:15:18 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: the other athlete In a message dated 1/11/99 9:57:16 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << What about his opponent? How is he feeling? >> i heard that he is a korean national and that he felt awful in spite of the fact that it wasnt his fault. it was a freak occurrence. for those of you who dont know, michael strube took a turning back kick just under the chin and apparently fell and struck the floor at such an angle that the fall, not the kick, caused his subsequent death. i was not there, this information was recieved through internet sources so take it for what it's worth. our thoughts must not only go out to the friends and loved ones of michael, but also to the other, "unknown", athlete. can you imagine what internal struggle that young gentleman must be going through right now? i wouldnt hold that gentleman responsible for the accidental death of michael. melinda ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:20:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Condolences.... In a message dated 1/11/99 9:56:46 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: > > What about his opponent? How is he feeling? > > I can't imagine what it must be like for him to go on with his life > knowing he accidentally killed someone in a tournament. Imagine how it feels to step into the ring with the guy, knowing he killed his last opponent. This is part of the sport, and the best thing that could be done right now is to find out about the guy's family, and see if they have any financial needs that could be addressed by the TKD community. Usually in boxing a trust fund is set up for the family, or to help put the kids through school. I would be happy to contribute if someone set one up. ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:58:00 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: fighter vs. artist > From: "John Bennett" > Date: Sat, 9 Jan 1999 11:42:34 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: fighter vs. artist > > I don't want to be an artist. > > I train to be an effective fighter. > > I go to church to learn how to become a better person. > > Is that wrong? No, it's entirely up to you... but.. you're ignoring, or at least missing, a large chunk of what the martial arts _should_ (IMHO) be about. There is (or, again, _should be_) a lot of mental/spiritual development that accompanies the martial arts. I use the term 'spiritual' for lack of a better one - this has nothing to do with religion, we're not talking about the western (i.e. Judeo-Christian / Islamic) concept of 'soul'. We're talking about some difficult-to-define inner aspect of your personality. Unfortunately, much of this spiritual training comes from various traditions, which many Western practitioners have eliminated. I believe this to be a result of ignorance: "Sheesh, it's 20th century America, we don't have to bow all the time". I'm all in favor of bringing the arts into the 20th (and now almost the 21st) century. Right now I'm moderating a list discussing the physics of martial arts. But if you're going to eliminate some traditional part of the art, you'd damned well better understand _exactly_ what that tradition was for, and why it was adopted. For example: the constant display of respect to higher ranks (bowing, use of formal titles, and so on) can grate on American sensibilities. I used to dislike being called "Mr. Steffen" by my students outside of class - "My name's Dave, now will you just chill?" ;-) I left the school in the hands of someone who took this to an extreme, came back several years later, and the result was horrendous. No respect being shown by anyone toward anyone, instructors abusing students in a variety of ways, and an astounding injury rate. Nobody respects anyone else, so why not make some contact with the hook kick? I saw black belt instructors flirting with female students; students emotionally or physically hurt by careless testing procedures; and several colored belt students hospitalized with injuries. And the technique was so bad, that at one point a visiting student who was a green belt in Goju-Ryu Karate observed a newly-minted TKD black belt, came to me afterward and asked "Shouldn't he be doing X and Y and Z with his turning kick?", and was absolutely right. (Two weeks later, this black belt hospitalized another green belt with a hook kick to the face - I hear it took nearly $5000 to fix this kid's nose.) When a Karate green belt knows more about turning kicks than a TKD black belt, we're in _serious_ trouble. It took me nearly two years to undo the damage. The fact is that most of us study arts that teach us how to hurt people. I'm very up front about this: ITF TKD's goal is to kill your opponent. Our techniques are designed to break your opponent, and break him badly. This is a powerful tool, and like all powerful tools, a dangerous one, and one not one to be given out lightly. In the hands of ethical, moral, cultured people, it is a tool for great good. In the hands of thugs, it's tremendously destructive. The responsibility then falls to the instructors: not to pass this knowledge on to people of questionable moral character. But, even more importantly, to _create_ people of high moral character. As the student progresses to more and more destructive abilities, they _MUST_ also progress to higher levels of personaly responsibility and dicipline. How do we do this? We make our students study forms, not just to develop technique, but to develop focus and dicipline. We make them show an absurd amount (from a Western point of view) of respect to us - and we earn it from them by conducting ourselves appropriately. We teach them to meditate; we teach them history; we introduce them to alien (to Western eyes) cultures. Traditions! Perhaps you have another way of developing moral dicipline in your students or, at least, in yourself. Great. But if that way is _separate_ from the study of the martial art, you have essentially disconnected the ability to injure from the dicipline not to. I suggest that this is a dangerous thing to do. You say you go to church. If your religion is an ethical one (most are, some I regard with suspicion), then we're in great shape. But what of your fellow students who don't want to be artists, who _don't_ go to church? Are they allowed to develop damaging technique without any moral guidance? If we do not demand _inner_ development from our students as they gain rank, we are not producing martial artists - we are producing thugs. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:08:02 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: WTF tournament death > From: Greg Giddins > Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 12:02:24 -0700 > Subject: the_dojang: RE: Tragedy > > For thse of you that haven't heard already... > > The US Open tournament this weekend was visited by tragedy. One of the > competitors from Denmark (I believe) lost his life due to injuries sustained > in the ring. [SNIP] > Then I would hope that we could all take another moment to reflect > on the ideas of control, risk, and our destructive (and potentially > fatal) potential. This is AFAIK one of the continuing criticisms of Olympic TKD. At least, it's one of _my_ criticisms. I'm not against full-contact fighting - a friend of mine fights in the Sabaki every year (full contact, no pads) and I respect the hell out of him (and wish I was that good!) But Sabaki competition isn't marketed at families; at my friend's dojo it's pretty clear that the Sabaki fighters are the elite, and if you want to do that, fine, but here's what you're getting in to. Interesting comparison: I read recently that the injury rate in car accidents actually went _up_ with the introduction of seat belts. (The fatality rate went down, but the injury rate went up). If you remove the bad consequences of risky behavior (or, even worse, the _perceived_ consequences), people indulge in more risky behavior. > And thirdly, why hasn't the USTU and/or any of it's members > adressed this issue? I know there are a few USTU officials within > shouting distance... I am shocked and apalled that we were not > greeted with a condolence post this morning as we read all our > mail. > > Where are you guys? And where is your heart? A member lost his > life. Is this not worth a word or two? There is no way you are > all in the dark about this. Please tell me why I feel like the > only persn in the world mourning this loss of life. I'm with you.. but won't comment further, as I've probably already annoyed the WTF'ers on this list. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:18:20 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Tradition > > From: Chuck Sears > > From: Piotr Bernat [SNIP] > Well stated, Mr. Bernat. Far too often, people tend to look at > martial arts styles like religions. Catholics knock heads with > Fundamentalists, Baptists lock horns with the Witnesses, etc. Both > sides lose sight of the fact that it's just a different path to a > common goal. Agreed... if and _ONLY IF_ the different paths actually reach the same goal! What worries me is people dumping traditions they don't understand the value of. And, IMHO, there are a lot of misunderstood traditions out there. Making changes to the traditions of an art is fine, IF you know what you're doing. IMHO there are very few people out there who are qualified to do this. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 21:49:19 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: WTF tournament death > > And thirdly, why hasn't the USTU and/or any of it's members > > adressed this issue? I know there are a few USTU officials within > > shouting distance... I am shocked and apalled that we were not > > greeted with a condolence post this morning as we read all our > > mail. > > > > Where are you guys? And where is your heart? A member lost his > > life. Is this not worth a word or two? There is no way you are > > all in the dark about this. Please tell me why I feel like the > > only persn in the world mourning this loss of life. > > I'm with you.. but won't comment further, as I've probably already > annoyed the WTF'ers on this list. But what would you have the USTU do? Think about it. Today is Monday. The US Open was Thursday/Friday/Saturday. Given the tragedy, don't you think the USTU officials are just a little bit too busy right now to send e-mail to this list, other lists, rec.martial-arts, rec.m-a.m, etc? It isn't like there are dozens of USTU officials afterall. Shouldn't the focus be on the family, friends, and teammates of the competitor and not on us? Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 23:41:47 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Joining new organization > From: jberwin@sc45.dseg.ti.com (John Brett Erwin 972-952-3738 ERWN) [SNIP] > Now, for the doozy. Are there any school owners out there that > have X-ferred a school into a new organization? What was your > process? What incentives did the org give you? How were you > brought up to speed? To transfer a school - it must mean there are > no local schools in that organization to compete with you. So your > "new" organization contact/instructor would be some distance from > you in location. How was this handled? Oh, baby! Have we ever! ;-) We recently (1994) rejoined the ITF after many, many years away from the organization - we spent much of the intervening years in the WTF. The experience with the WTF was not, on the whole, pleasant, but was better than our previous experience with the ITF. (Don't ask... it's a loooong story) We rejoined the ITF under Master K. S. Hwang (recently promoted to Grand Master), and despite an occasionally bumpy ride, are very very happy to be where we are. Under GM Hwang our understanding of TKD has changed drastically, and much for the better. The process involved: 1) Meeting GM Hwang We brought GM Hwang out to our dojang (at considerable expense, worth every penny). He looked at us (they're misguided but they've got potential) and we looked at him (oh my God, we've got to learn this!). (As a side note, GM Hwang was not the first possible Master we 'interviewed'. Having decided to leave the WTF, we were looking around for an organization. Several months before GM Hwang came out, we brought a well-known and apparently well-respected Master out for a seminar, also at considerable expense. Not worth a single penny, we were very dissapointed and actually rather angry. Mr. Rhone and I refrained from physically throwing him out of the school because one isn't supposed to do that to 8th Dans. ;-) In retrospect, we probably _should_ have thrown him out. At least we wouldn't have had to buy him dinner. ;-) 2) Both parties were interested, so we began the long, bumpy, and (unfortunately) fairly costly process of transferring our rank over to the ITF. We also obtained an ITF plaque, which is essentially a school charter - we're registered with the ITF as a member dojang, etc. etc. GM Hwang was happy enough with our standards and abilities to let us transfer our WTF certification over directly - we essentially paid the certification fees. We was particularly generous with me, letting me transfer a WTF 4th Dan that was nonexistent (part of the WTF problems). 3) Over the following years, we worked hard to change over to ITF standards. Mainly this meant catching up on the changes to the forms that occured after 1981, and even more difficult, adopting the Sine Wave technique for generating power. I personally struggled mightily with this, until in 1996 I watched one of GM Hwang's student do a _fabulous_ rendition of Gae Beck Tul. Something about her technique clicked with what I knew, and bingo - my power doubled practically overnight. We've also made some minor changes to our curriculum - during our time in the WTF we tried to hold to the old ITF standards, so this was minor. We're still working on adopting ITF standard terminology, the Korean stuff in particular. As for the geography, it's a problem: GM Hwang's HQ is in Conneticutt. Basically my instructor and I have spent a _bunch_ of money traveling. Expensive, irritating, frustrating, and ultimately very much worth it. My long distance charges have gone up dramatically, too. Does that answer your question? - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 11 Jan 1999 22:05:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #16 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.