From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #22 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 13 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 022 In this issue: the_dojang: Do You Have The Right Forum?? the_dojang: Response to Ray the_dojang: In Defence of Amway the_dojang: Let us not forget what we do. Re: the_dojang: Response to Ray the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #21 the_dojang: US Open Tragedy the_dojang: T'aekwondo Ring Death the_dojang: State-of-Our-Art the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! 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Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 12:29:54 PST Subject: the_dojang: Do You Have The Right Forum?? >>At a time when we in the TKD community should be coming together-should be extending support to one another-should be praying for broken families-and should be sharing condolences, we have chosen to use forums such as the Dojang Digest for wild speculation and blame. This has got to end. Now. Unless you were there, sitting as we were, fifteen feet from the ring, you have no right to speculate on what WE SAW. You have no right to pass along, as fact, comments that a friend of a friend heard. And you have no right to blame anyone. G. London>>>> Mr. London: I find your post very accusatory that unless we are you we don't know the truth and we therefore have "no right" to talk about it. I found this very harsh for I have read the posts on this forum and have found nothing that has been rude or inflmmatory. I don't think people should have the right to trash the family but they have every right to discuss the match as they would any other match... Everyone on this forum has been above board in their discussions. While you might have been 15 feet from the incident might I remind you that in every match they have 3 corner judges and one center referee for a reason, all in close proximity, because nobody sees the same thing from the same angle. You could have been looking straight at the incident, your back could have been turned, there could have been people in front of you and on and on. Seeking the truth is also part of healing and grieving. Individuals and TKD community members have the right to heal and to discover what happened. Yes, we have the right. Have you ever seen an auto accident and then asked the many eye witnesses what they saw. You won't get the same answer from any of them. Have you ever been to a football game like the SuperBowl. I dare say the couch potatoes at home see much more detail up close and personal on their TV sets then people at the game. Discussion is healthy and healthy discussion brings out truths and enables all of us to move forward with some semblance of sanity and the ability to cope and to make changes to hopefully lessen the chances of this ever happening again. This is a very civil forum on all threads and Ray is to be complimented for keeping it that way. Jamaica ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Mark Herrick Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 13:22:21 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Response to Ray Ray, you wrote: >>It was a freak accident. Not sure we need to know all the exact details. I know that I don't really care to. Would it really make a difference to the competitor and his family & friends?<< 1) I do not believe in accidents. We practice a deadly art/sport. When we throw a kick we are responsible for it. "Oops I didn't meqn to hurt you." "Oops sorry I didn't know the gun was loaded." BS! Control, control, control. Intent, intent, intent. 2) You may not care to know the details, but in this case ignorance is not bliss. We can only learn frrom our mistakes by being candid and frank in our self reflection. A death is the most serious consequence. One worth much consideration and deliberation. You run this list as a forum for TKD. If you dont want to use the forum to improve the art and reflect on the good and bad points of TKD then I am not sure what value the Dojang Digest serves other than self aggrandizement. 3) It would certainly make a difference to his family and friends if they knew changes would be made to prevent future deaths like his. Small comfort but some. >>For the wrong person in the wrong position at the wrong time, most any blow could be a killing blow. What would you teach, especially given that 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time there will not be a problem?<< So he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Shame on you. That was a cold heartless comment. My Master teaches that the spinning hook kick is the most devastating and the most difficult to control kick in TKD. He willl not let any of his students, even BB, use the kick in competition until they can demonstrate that they can control the blow. Until then, it can not be used. Certainly a very responsible practice. Andy Grove of Intel wrote a book, "Only the Paranoid Survive." Meaning you plan, and train for the worst possible contingency regardless of how unlikely it may be. Because S*^T DOES Happen! You may not run your own school, or be an instructor, but those who do have a responsibility to teach TKD to their students so that they are responsible practitioners. >>And what makes you claim that? I've seen otherwise in every situation that I've been involved with.<< I see it all the time in Northern California. I hear supporters in the stands, friends, family and 'masters,' commenting, "knock him out" "put him on a stretcher." etc. I also wrote about the Master who did nothing when his competitor knock his opponent unconscious with uncontrolled kicks. I see poor referreeing al the time. I see competitors who are over aggressive all the time. I no longer allow my son to compete for very clear reasons. It has become too dangerous. >>Accidents happen. S*^t happens. A handful of high school football players die every few years during practice or a game. Are all first string football players and their coaches then responsible for those tragedies? Of course not...<< Coaches are ALWAYS absolutely rsponsible for their players actions on the field. And, why do you think safety equipment has become mandated and is even under consideration to be upgraded? What do you think liability suits are all about? Again, we have a responsibility to ourselves, our students and the Art to make it as safe as possible. If we neglect to do even one thing to make the Art safer then we are responsible for any future death. >>Regarding equipment. Well, perhaps details might help out a little here. From what little I've heard, equipment limitations were not a problem here so that is not a concern.<< No? Might as well go in without any pads then if this is how you feel. And, Ray. Care to comment why with several documented deaths due to hard wood floors TKD still sanctions tournaments without mats? Regards, Mark Herrick 1st Dan, WTF whtlotus@nichiren.org ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 09:30:39 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: In Defence of Amway >For the record: I have had an Amway dealership. I can't complain about their products...but I personally found no gain in their program. But I never professed to be any kind of a salesman either....and sales is the name of that game (whether it be selling the products or selling the distributorships). John Hancock< >Good point, Jeremy. Since I sold Amway products for four years, I feel that I do know what I'm talking about.< I know that this may not be the most appropriate place to take this issue up, but since we are talking about speaking without knowledge, I thought I might as well bring this up in here. Please understand that I can joke about Amway just like the next guy. (That is why I thought it was funny about the crack about the A in ATA stood for Amway.) Knowing that it was said in fun. However when hearing people linking the word Amway to words such as pyrimad schemes or kick back schemes, I get just as offended as those who badmouthed the ATA without really knowing. Now I was told that the people who made the comments have been in the business in way or another. If they are still in it great, if not, that is too bad. Please let us keep something in perspective regardless of what you know or might know about Amway. Amway is a legitimate business. It is regulated by the FTC (Federal Trade Commission) and has provided more people with a way to financially free themselves than any other vehicle out there. Does it work for everyone? No. Can it work for everyone? Yes. So those who have never been in the business before and think you know what it is about, then prove yourself right and find someone to sponsor you and go to one of the meetings. Those who don't know anything about it, then do the same as the people who think they know and go to one of the meetings. Besides if you want to look at a pyrimad scheme, just take a look at the job you're at now. This is the same thing as those people who don't know anything about the ATA. Go find out for yourself, don't let anyone give you your opinoin make it for yourself. Those who have never been in the ATA, but think they know everything about it, then again, prove yourself right and visit an ATA school and see for yourself. Ok. I'll step off my soapbox (before I'm kicked off of it.) Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 10:56:35 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Let us not forget what we do. Do to the recent death at the US Open, a lot of controversy has started to arise; Should we have more safety precautions? Should we go to less contact in the USTU? Should there be more control taught? Though it is a tragedy that someone lost their life during the competition, we must not forget what we do in the martial arts. Regardless of why you are in martial arts, you are learning how to fight. The moves that we learn can be lethal. Though it was not the strike itself that caused the death at the recent competition, it could have been. Unfortunately it takes something like this to bring us back to reality of what the martial arts are; A systemized form of combat. We like to cover up, whether consciencely or unconsciencely, the fact that we learn to fight. We tell ourselves that we do it for the art of it, or we are only in it as a form of excersise. Ladies and Gentlemen wake up! Those who train in the martial arts, whether they be weekend warriors or hard core athletes, carry the responsibility like that of the person who carries a loaded gun. We toy with it, we show our friends and we keep it in a controled enviroment in the dojang/dojo/kwoon. If we abuse that responsibility or disrespect it, then someone gets seriously hurt or killed. We all assume risk when we train in any sport. Martial arts just has a little more than others. My thoughts and prayers go out to the athlete who has passed on, but his death is a reminder of what we do. It is a humbling point to know that we as martial artist have the power to destroy or build with what we learn. The choice is ours. If the recent death at the US Open has got you wondering about what you are doing, then good. Realize what type of training you are receiving. Respect that training. If you are fooling yourself in thinking this is just a form of exercise, then perhaps you should join a health club. The heart of martial arts is not to keep you trimmed or make you "one with yourself" or even help you gain more trophies and medals. The heart of martial arts is to help you defend yourself and, if need be, kill. Martial means MILITARY. Let us remember that. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 14:46:13 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Response to Ray > >>It was a freak accident. Not sure we need to know all the exact details. > I know that I don't really care to. Would it really make a difference to > the competitor and his family & friends?<< > > 1) I do not believe in accidents. I guess we disagree. I've seen too many freak accidents to not believe in their existence. > 3) It would certainly make a difference to his family and friends if they knew changes would be made to prevent future deaths like his. Doubtful. From what I know it was simply a freak accident and they can occur in a contact sport like boxing, football, rugby, TKD, etc. A true story. A friend of mine was an allstar football player that eventually played in the NFL. He played very hard, but very clean. One of the nicest guys you'd ever want to meet... But in a game one day he hit a guy that had just caught a pass and he broke the guy's back. That guy is still in wheelchair, he never walked again. My friend was very very deeply hurt. He knew he hadn't hit this guy any differently or any harder that he had hit 5000 other guys over the years, but on this day that guy's spine could not take it and it snapped. Bad horrible evil things happen... > So he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time? Shame on you. That > was a cold heartless comment. Sorry, but see above. A fine young competitor lost his life. A horrible tragedy. Isn't it sufficient to leave it at that, a horrible tragedy? For some it will, for some it will not. For me it is and yes my card to the family is on its way to the USTU for them to forward. I hope everyone elses is too. USTU 1 Olympic Plaza Ste 405 Colorado Spgs, Colorado 80909 Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 17:50:40 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #21 Ray....I have stayed out of this one mainly because I tend to keep my mouth shut on subjects I can't definitively speak upon....but...I want to commend you for your comments. And I also concur that perhaps it is time to re-evaluate the quality of safety equipment being used in sport martial arts today. There is actually an old argument here. One aspect has to do with exactly what we should or should not pad or protect...and the other has to do with the materials used. First, two camps have existed for some years over Pad the Weapon vs Pad the Target. One school of thought is...put pads on the striking tools, ie. the hands and feet so that this instrument of attack is nullified. This concept comes from boxing...which is where we go our first ideas on using safety equipment from. The other camp says pad the target and this lead to head gear, groin cups and chest protestors. I have sparred both methods (full contact mind you) and I have to admit...the protect the target camp is really the best and most feasable way to go for a number of reasons. The main reason being the age old complaint that has always come from the use of hand/foot pads. They (1) interfere with proper technique (2) they minamize the the ability to use certain technique (such as grabbing and trapping skill) (3) they don't provide full coverage of all areas (the best example is the lack of coverage on the bottom of the foot which means they serve a moot point for any side kick and many kicks utilizing the ball of the foot...and I might add, often the heal is not well cushioned either and does little to minamize the deadliness of an axe or spinning kick). For all these reasons, due mainly to how a human body is constructed and works...padding the weapon doesn't work as well as padding the target. It is much more feasable to pad the targets...which would be the head and the body. There are two areas however that so far no one has really paid much attention to. One is the groin. Well...there have been some advancements with the creation of tuck under groin protectors and the new exterior wear cups (which once again came from boxing camps...believe it or not). But beyond this...there hasn't been any development. I can live with that as we really do not need to return to the days when groin strikes were legal targets (how many of us remember that). Sure it is a valid target for street use....but for crying out loud...this is a sport we are talking about. You want to go bullistic on someone...put them in the Red Man suits Law Enforcement trainers use first. So...we can sort of write off the groin issue. This leaves the area of the neck...specifically the throat. Has anyone but me ever been kicked in the throat? If you've spent anytime at all in the ring...surely you have run into either an errant punch or kick which has landed in this area (baby...I took a full powered side kick in the throat during my Dan test in Korea....and when my eyes quit watering and I manage to re-swallow my gullot...I realized how close a call that could have been). I have never seen any type of protective gear for this area. And most of the head gear I have seen, in my opinion, is totally unsuitable for use by martial artist. The design is all wrong. You know...I started to give a description of my design for safer gear in this posting...but ya know...I think I'll just call Century instead. If someone is going to make this stuff....I ought to at least get credit for the idea. After all...back in 1988 a buddy of mine showed me plans for a new type of heavy bag. Funny thing is...he never patented or copywrited the idea...and low and behold...just a few years later the water filled floor stand heavy bag appeared (his idea called for sand in the base....but the his design and the water filled ones that appeared are almost identical....hmmmmmm). I will just ad this...some years back I came across a study on the use of blown foam molded gear we all see today versus traditional cotton padded boxing gloves. It seems the foam gear got high marks in lightness and comfort....but it was shown that this type of gear causes more danger of brain trauma than traditional boxing gear...or even bare knuckles. I wish I could remember where I saw this...as I believe it would be very interesting to other Digest members who have concerns about the standard of safety equipment today. OK...I'm done. John Hancock ------------------------------ From: Eric Mueller Date: Tue, 12 Jan 1999 22:21:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: US Open Tragedy Glenn sent me: >Also there was no mention of inadequate medical care on the Lady TKD page >because that was erroneous information that was taken off almost as soon as >it was put up. I am glad to here that the report of innadequate medical care at the US Open was erroneous. I have never personally been to a National or International level tournament, but I have been to Local and State Level Tournaments some of which have had official Physicians & Nurses/EMT's, One tournament which had an ambulance with Paramedics waiting in the wings, and many more with No one other than Myself or another Parent or Competitor who has Identified him/herself as a Physician Nurse etc. When someone became injured. On at least 2 occasions I have had to hand My camcorder to someone to go check on someone because tournament officials are calling "Is there a Doctor In the House". I show up, and after Identifying myself as a RN (for obvious legal reasons) render what help I can. I have never had the equiptment I would have liked on hand in these situations. As a result I am in the process of scavaging up various medical supplies to create my own little "E.R. bag" in time for my Son Jason's Next tournament (Jan 23, Essex Comm. College Maryland). I am always happy to help, but when I am the sole caregiver for an injured athalete, without any supplies, My advice has always been:" go to the Hospital right now" - even if the injury appears minor. Without supplies, authority from the tournament directors, and Emergency experiance (which i am getting Now - I started Working in the ER yesterday), I am potentially opening myself up to a Lawsuit; and I won't allow that to happen. I urge all of you out there to: #1. Get CPR certified #2. Urge the organizers of ANY EVENT to have a designated non-competitor physician and/or Paramedic with equiptment on hand FOR THE ENTIRE EVENT. Whatever the cost, it is will be a bargain if it saves a life or prevents disability. #3 Remember, If someone takes a head shot YOU MUST ASSUME THEY HAVE Cervical Spine Damage (A broken Neck). DO NOT MOVE THEM AT ALL. If they are not breathing there are ways to immobilize the neck while performing rescue breathing (TAKE CPR!). You could literally kill someone or cause irreversable paralysis by moving them. This is not the venue for anyone not certified to learn Basic Life Support.... OK I have vented (once again). In honor of Michael Richard Strube; tell someone that you love that you love them and give them a hug, and learn CPR. Talk to you all soon Eric ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 18:03:13 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: T'aekwondo Ring Death I've been thinking about the ring death of Michael Strube this weekend. My heart goes out to both his family and his fellow competitor first and foremost, but I do feel we need to learn more about the injury. That is probably NOT what is foremost in the minds of those who loved Michael, but as an instructor myself it is of primary importance for the simple reason that I want to make sure that something like this doesn't happen again. Calling it a "freak accident" I think trivializes his death. No-one should go shouting about the potential dangers of competition until we know much more of course, but certainly we should not simply write it off and wait to see if it happens again with some frequency. Personally, I would like to know all the details. Was the injury a result of the blow (if so, where did it hit and why did it prove fatal?) or was it a result of the fall? I'm sure my opinion will not be very popular. Gregg London wrote: >This has got to end. Now. Unless you were there, sitting as we >were, fifteen feet from the ring, you have no right to speculate >on what WE SAW. You have no right to pass along, as fact, comments >that a friend of a friend heard. And you have no right to blame anyone. I agree that certainly it is way too soon to blame anybody, and I imagine that blaming anyone won't help anybody anyways. What we need is to find out what happened and stop it from happening again. Speculation on what happened is definitely painful for those who knew Mr. Strube, and should therefore be kept to a minimum, but an investigation IS necessary. Somebody died. Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Jewell, David" Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1999 08:15:00 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: State-of-Our-Art Mark (whtlotus@nichiren.org) has raised a very important issue. Without showing any disrespect to the tradgic events of last saturday, Mark has raised the point that we must move on, learn and take some responsibilty for the tradgedy. Well said. Unfortunately the nature of the "competitive beast" is to get what ever edge it takes in order to WIN. In competitions such as these events, the object is to WIN and therefore it is only a matter of time before tragedy occurs. It's this competitive spirit which drives sportsmen/women to greater heights and to cut corners. Just look at the drug debate in the Olympics. Unlike most modern sports where safety equipment and practices make the event safer, Martials Arts are intrinsicly dangerous and therefore should not be made sports. If they are, then they become too dangerous or the safety equipment required would change the art so much as to no longer be an art. Imagine what TKD would look like if the combatants were dressed up like the Michelin Man, fully protected but unable to do a decent kick. Perhaps we need to get rid of the competitive glory, medals and other rewards to make TKD safer? cheers DJ... ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 13 Jan 1999 15:36:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #22 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.