From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #30 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 17 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 030 In this issue: the_dojang: There is no CPR "certification" Re: the_dojang: There is no CPR "certification" the_dojang: First Aid the_dojang: John's rebut to "To John" the_dojang: Baking Boards the_dojang: Re: Tournament Medical care the_dojang: Re: John Hancock's posts the_dojang: all bad things must come to an end the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "John Bennett" Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:21:03 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: There is no CPR "certification" There is no such thing as being "certified" in CPR. A person may become "trained" in CPR, but not certified. If a person were "certified" in CPR or First Aid, both the person and the organization that trained them could be held legally liable for their actions in the field. Thus, no one is "certified" in CPR or First Aid. Regarding the length of time between refresher training, that is determined by whatever organization is requiring that you be trained. The American Heart Association recommends two years. My employer requires yearly updates. Some organizations require refresher training every three years. John Bennett ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 13:19:11 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: There is no CPR "certification" > There is no such thing as being "certified" in CPR. > > A person may become "trained" in CPR, but not certified. If a person > were "certified" in CPR or First Aid, both the person and the > organization that trained them could be held legally liable for their > actions in the field. Had to check mine. Yep, that looks right. I have several 'Certificates of Recognition' for attending Medic First Aid classes with an issued and renewal date, but nothing about being 'certified'. (The renewal dates are one year later.) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 16:48:53 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: First Aid Hmm, I seem to have lost the poster's name here, but here goes anyways... Someone wrote: In New England states the best thing for anyone to do is to train people how to call 911 and what to say to the operators. I have had many friends in different fields be sued after saving a persons life, and they really did save there life. When you administer first aid up here you are asking for trouble (especially if you are certified), if you hurt the person, but save their life a lawyer will come after you for the injury; if you administer first aid and the person dies, the lawyer will come after you for not saving the life; if you dial 911 and adminster first aid until the parametics arrive, the lawyer could come after you for injuries and /or death. If you avoid certification of CPR and first aid, you dial 911 and keep the person alive until the paramedics arrives you will most likely not be sued. My answer: Ok, I have a couple questions for you. First, were your friends sued successfully, or were they defended by the Good Samaritan Law? Second, there is no requirment for you to help anybody, even if you are trained in first aid and safety under the Red Cross. I have no idea about what medical training does for you, but I would guess it is the same way. that means you SHOULD go out and get certified so you CAN help if you want or need to. I think we should help everybody, but I can understand your concerns. MY concern is that when one of your loved ones is badly injured that you won't know what to do. What will you say to yourself afterwards? "Gee, Mom died in my arms because I didn't know CPR but at least some stranger didn't sue me." I am a Red Cross instructor and believe in it wholeheartedly. Just a few weeks after I taught at a local academy for the first time, one of the students there had a massive heart attack during Brazilian jujutsu practice. Four guys I had trained were there and went right to work on him. The paramedics told them afterwards that the attack was so massive there was nothing they could have done for them, but they were all happy they had the training. They had all know the guy for at least twelve years and if they hadn't been able to do ANYTHING for him, they thought they would have been devastated with the guilt. I myself saved my one year old after he bit too much off a banana and started choking. The techniques work, and the training is inexpensive. Get it now. Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:48:43 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: John's rebut to "To John" > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > From: Mark Herrick > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 17:34:43 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: To John > I do appreciate that you reprinted my entire "inflamatory" post. > > I stand behind every word I wrote. So we are not on the same page. We clearly have very different view points. And, I dont think Ray needs you to stand up for him. He and I have written and we are square on things. We have > agreed to disagree. I certainly respect his opinion. You on the other hand do not seem to respect mine, or the others who wrote a differing opinion. > Hmmmm.....that's kind of like the pot calling the kettle black, isn't it? > You were the one who has chosen to extend our remarks to include "criminal intent" ie: Manslaughter. Not me. You do raise an interesting point though, the competitor could be charged with Involuntary Manslaughter, but that's > up to the DA. Read the California Penal Code. If you dont have it let me know I wil excerpt the PC section. > Well...that is wonderful...except....I don't live in California. I was thinking on a more global issue. > Our entire society seems to be having difficulty with the concept of personal responsibility. My post was written to mean that we have to be careful to understand that we are each responsible for what happens to us. The Law of > Cause and Effect is an implacable and impersonal law which > does not play favorites and operates whether it is acknolwedged or not. Martial Artists better be very clear on the concept of Cause and Effect. You throw any full force kick to the head and you dont think it is going to hurt, > injure or kill? That is disconnected from Reality. > Well...I happen to think that getting into a ring in a full contact competition and not coming to terms with the fact that you are engaging in a potentially DEADLY endeavor regardless of the TECHNIQUE is rather disconnected from reality. And if we make it SAFER as you have suggested....well....isn't that also part of the continuing argument of dillution of the quality of the arts? > We practice a martial art, with inherent dangers. We must do everything possible to make it safer. See...I don't think we need to make the ART safer....but perhaps we do need to make the SPORT safer. Lets face it...we have the technology to make a man stronger, faster, deadlier...than at any time before in history. It only makes sense that eventually someone would surpass the current safety equipments ability. If a man can learn to kick with a thousand pounds of force....we really shouldn't be surprised when that kick makes contact and someone dies from the trauma. But I don't think blaming the guy for doing what he was trained to do...and was expected to do...is constructive. Hello! Wake up call! You can't have it both ways! You can't talk about how deadly the skills of Tae Kwon Do are and not expect something like this to eventually happen. I just don't like the implications of the attribution of INTENT. I don't think anyone will argue that the fellow didn't INTEND to throw the kick....nor do I think anyone could argue that he INTENDED to throw it FULL FORCE...afterall...it was a FULL CONTACT match. But you nor the other posters have fooled me one iota concerning your sublime implication of that INTENT. This is some dangerous psychology to be getting into....and that is what I disagreed so strongly about. There are no accidents...right? Wrong. An accident is only the combination of predisposing variables that come together by chance to produce the said result. High probability is what we are talking about. Accidents happen all the time. The likelihood of any ACCIDENT occuring is obviously increased by the proximity of any number of said interactive variables. Ergo...you get in a ring...to fight full contact...with flimsy foam padding...and hit each other as hard as you can to vulnerable areas....ya shudn't bay sarpiz'd. But I've ground this issue into dust already. And obviously...still beating my head against a wall. > My post went into much more detail on suggestions how we can make it safer. Perhaps it would be more constructive to engage on > these subjects? > > Let me try again: > > 1) improve the safety equipment we wear using the technology we now have. Look what Air Force pilots wear to protect their head. Look what Fencers wear to scrore hits. > I couldn't agree more. > 2) Change the rules to encourage more body strikes. Allow punches to score again. Limit head contact to "Light Contact." > NOPE. This won't work. The amateur open tournaments have already been there...done that. You want to bring the shots thrown down....allow leg attacks...especially to base foot. Guarantee a few sweeps...and everyone will get damn careful about high kicks. OK...now before the counter point comes....give two points to the head kick...to encourage high kicks (this is so the damn public will be happy with the show). Sort of equalizes everything. > 3) Mandate mats in all rings. > ABSOLUTELY. It is rediculous this wasn't done 15 years ago. > 4) [here is certainly a controversial one] Make competitors who spar first participate in Poomse, just like Skaters must start with Cumpulsory Exercises. [put a little of the Art back in the Sport] > Wonderful idea. > What do you think we could do? > Me? Boycott all events until these measures are put in place. Let's face it. Money drives everything....and it will drive this issue too. Well...lets recap. So far we all agree the equipment needs to be improved. We agree to disagree about the intent issues. We agree some changes probably need to be made to the rules, although what those changes are is still a matter of disagreement.. And we agree mats are an idea long overdue. This issue of Art vs Sport is still unresolved. Mr. Herrick lives in a glass house and plays with rocks, Ray is an insensitive snob and I'm just an asshole with a big mouth. That pretty much cover it? John Hancock ------------------------------ From: Eric Mueller Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 18:58:26 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Baking Boards A friend e-mailed me the following question: >What is the "recipe" for Baking Boards for breaking? How Hot should the Oven be? How >Long do you "Cook" them? > Also, is there an "officail" size for boards at a tournament? My 7 year old >Nephew is going to be in a tournament soon and wants to break some boards. > Thanks for Your Help I told her that Boards were usually 1" by 10 X 12, but that at some tournaments they sell thinner or smaller boards (I'm not sure what size they were, but approx 6 x 10" x 1/2-3/4"). I have no clue about "Baking" boards. Anyone know the answers? Eric ------------------------------ From: Eric Mueller Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 12:37:04 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Tournament Medical care > From: "Jamaica Power" > Date: Sat, 16 Jan 1999 14:52:28 PST > Subject: the_dojang: Medical Records of Athletes > > What additionally bothers me is that this particular sport does not > provide any indication that the athletes have been given medical > clearance by any medical provider. Excellent Point > The other reason I stated that I would prefer to have a designated > practitioner on hand and why I believe they put themselves at risk for > malpractice is because these tournaments know prior to the tournament > that there is risk/danger involved. By not providing proper medical > care and onsite providers it could be interpreted (depending on the > circumstances) that they are recklessly endangering the lives of the > athletes at the tournament by not providing a safe environment for the > competition. I agree, and I think that after the recent Tragedy at USTU many tournament directors/organizers are going to give a think long and hard about Thier Liability before they decide not to have dedicated medical personnel on hand. > My question to you Eric > would be if you are beginning to set up First Aid kits anticipating that > there could be a potential accident aren't you accepting the > responsibility for the tournament? I don't THINK so. My First Aid Kit would be there in case they did not have proper medical care on the scene. Hmmmmm - THis sounds like a Lawyer Question. If I drive around with a medical kit in my car am I assuming responsibility for the State Highways?? I would think that the answer would be no, but You have raised an excellent point. > Since tournaments are recurring > events and are not one time occurrences aren't we reaffirming the > continuation of lack of proper care by being prepared in the background. Interesting thought. Any Lawyers on the list?? > And if injuries occur could not someone make a case that it has been > practice if not policy within the TKD environment to be negligent in > this area by established past practices. I think any tournament director who tried to defend himself in court for negligance, by using that arguement would get slammed. But hten again, if he had johnnie Cochran as a lawyer..... > And don't those few lax > directors of tournaments come to depend on your appearance and existence > at the tournament? I don't think they depend on ME being there necessarily, but they may tell themselves "Oh if something happens I'm sure their be a Nurse or Doctor there who will help". I think we should all contact our various State USTU leadership, and petition them to Mandate a certain level of care dedicated to each tournament (hopefully , in light of the USTU, they are already doing this) ------------------------------ From: Bernard Eddey Date: Mon, 18 Jan 1999 08:49:31 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: John Hancock's posts Well its happened again. I leave town for a couple of days, I come back, log in and find Mr Hancock is on the attack yet again (despite Ray asking that the matter be given a rest). What *do* you put on your corn flakes ol' buddy? I specifically refer to your comments on 'Blame' and your defence of Ray. I read and re-read all the recent posts regarding the tragic incident in Anaheim and the only person to use words such as 'blame', 'criminal intent' and 'manslaughter' was you! All I stated was that while the fatality was accidental (i.e. there was no intention of the incident happening) the events that lead to the death were no accident. Two guys were in a ring fighting it out for points, glory (or whatever their personal motives were). You (and others) have stated that "Sh*t happens". Ever heard of bowel control? If you place yourself in a position where the brown stuff will fly off the fan and hit you in the face there is some chance that it will. To compare a horse riding accident to the incident in question is facile. Me Reeves and his mount were working in the same direction - i.e. they were a team not opponents. Instead of attacking people for their opinions why don't you comment on some of the matters raised. You have mentioned improved head protection. That may help against external bruising but does nothing to stop the brain bouncing around (I'm assuming here that you had the good manners to read my *entire* post on the subject). I will say it again - no amount of head protection is going to cushion the brain from injury. The brain bounces - the brain gets bruised! Many in this forum have written that in a real life situation the last technique they would throw would be one directed at the head. The body is a much bigger, more easily reached target. So why the apparent emphasis on head kicks in the sport? Cos it looks good on TV? Is it good for ratings? Why not limit scoring shots to between the iliac crest (hips) and the shoulder - any contact outside this area would be zero points or in some cases a points deduction. Ray mentioned that most points scored are body kicks anyway - why not make it official? While I'm on the topic - I'm sure Ray feels secure in the knowledge that your standing by his side, Colt 45 blazing away at his alledged attackers, however Ray has shown time and time again that he is perfectly capable of looking after himself. Personally I did not notice any 'attacks' on Ray unless, of course, you call "a dissenting opinion" an attack. I look forward to your constructive comments. Bernard Eddey 1st Dan TKD Shanghai ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:24:47 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: all bad things must come to an end Ok. This 'insensitive snob' :) is putting an end to this thread about blame, name calling, etc. Take it to private e-mail, cause continued posts on this topic will end up in the bit bucket. Focus on issues with possible positive outcomes should you wish to continue to post on things related to the recent tragedy. Thanks. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 17 Jan 1999 17:25:55 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #30 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.