From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #46 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Sun, 24 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 046 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Ki the_dojang: Re: short folks the_dojang: Re: training and pregnancy Re: the_dojang: Re: training and pregnancy the_dojang: Frustration the_dojang: Stretching book or manual the_dojang: solutions the_dojang: woman's studies the_dojang: smaller & bigger the_dojang: Ki Frauds. . . the_dojang: . . .& Mystical Auras the_dojang: Pregnancy, Reiki the_dojang: Re: Ki / Chi / cough / TDD V6 #44 the_dojang: MA and Pregnancy the_dojang: Frustration the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Osier Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:44:34 +0000 ( ) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> > True..it was a fine example from a 11 year future scientist. > However...it has one major flaw....Emily herself participated in the > experiment. Therefore...it lost a bit of authenticity for me. I think > the jury is still out on the Human Energy Field. I would have been much > happier if it had been some sort of double blind study. > > John Hancock True, her study was not completely without flaw. However, it is the most scientific study performed to date. Studies claiming to prove therapeutic touch have had worse flaws. I can do in depth research on this and report back if anyone would like it. Please request via private email, however, as we're (ok, I'm :) taking up quite a bit of bandwidth. When dealing with a situation like this we must remember that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof". (Does anyone remember the original source of the quote?) Also, Occam's Razor is important to remember: all things being equal, the simpler explanation tends to be right. There are two explanations given in this case: a mystical energy field, laws of physics such as Newton's laws can be taken advantage of to generate more force from strikes/etc. The simpler explanation is the one involving Newton's laws, not a mystical field. To get back to the reason for my reply, a claim was made that "science and other sources have come to acknowledge these forces as existing". I have neither seen nor heard proof of that statement. And no conclusive demonstrations are to be found on Medline (a service which does searches of the medical literature). I won't force my beliefs about Ki on anyone (although I've expressed them reasonably well above :)...everyone is free to believe as they wish. But making claims of scientific proof holds a great deal of weight in modern society. As such, they must be backed up lest people be potentially deceived by any false claims. I see no proof. Michael - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Osier = michael.osier@yale.edu | "He is not well rounded who does http://chloe.hgs.yale.edu/~og/ | not have an equally keen interest BS Biochemical Science - UVM | in all of the things within the Yale University | compass of painting." Human Genetics - Og | Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 19:11:57 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: short folks perry wrote: << I'm glad to meet another "short" person. Being short has never bothered me but has always made it a bit of a challenge when it same to sparring. With TKD being such a kick oriented art, I found that kicking my opponent was not always possible (unless I wanted to break his knee cap - like in a real life situation) :-)>> lol...you callin' me short? better watch it or i'll kick ya in the shins! :P...and hey, knee and shin kicks are great IRL :) << I would like your/anyone's comments on how you deal with sparring "bigger" people - especially in today's world where it seems like noone punches and noone scores punches.>> i jam them. i get right in there and keep them from getting those legs up. it ends up that i chase them around the mat...lol. i tire more quickly than i'd like to, unfortunately, but at least i dont let them knock me down and around too much. :) youre right about the punching in that people arent so used to it. they should be scored, however. there's a guy in our dojang who boxed in the army. so many of the students just dont expect it when he pummels their hogu. not all of his punches have the force to displace his opponent for a point, but if you punch enough and hard enough, a good ref has to score that. <> great idea. << I either stay out of their reach and keep moving until I can close or, when they attack, I rely on moving away angularly or move in and jam. I genrally follow jams with punches first then kicks, if I can.>> i need to work on my angular moves. i pretty much try to maintain the jam, however. << I've found sparring with the younger guys in the club (they're all younger - - I'm the second oldest guy in class) that they are very subsceptible to punches - they usually fight with their hands down - Olympic style.>> ours typically do too....unless theyve fought against our army boxer. melinda ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:45:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: training and pregnancy One of my friends became pregnant 2 years ago. She was one of the fittest people I have evern seen, lots of TKD, running, and some weight training were all part of her routine. When she got pregnant, the doctor told her to cease all of this immediately, and did not have any good reason for this but she was the doctor and it was my friend's first pregnancy so she obeyed. Around her 3rd or 4th month she changed doctors for insurance reasons and got a doctor who practiced martial arts. This doctor said the first one was nuts for telling her to stop everything. He said no contact sparring, no high kicks, but otherwise to do what she was comfortable with. She did start training again for a while but had to quit in the 7th month for other reasons. The baby came out fine. My friend was very upste about the advice from the first doctor and felt like it set her back alot in terms of getting back into shape after having the baby. Like someone else said the usual advice is to make appropriate modifications but do not stop what is already part of your routine. Sandy - -- tokay@netwurx.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 16:35:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: training and pregnancy > One of my friends became pregnant 2 years ago. She was one of the > fittest people I have evern seen, lots of TKD, running, and some weight > training were all part of her routine. When she got pregnant, the > doctor told her to cease all of this immediately, and did not have any > good reason for this but she was the doctor and it was my friend's first > pregnancy so she obeyed. Around her 3rd or 4th month she changed > doctors for insurance reasons and got a doctor who practiced martial > arts. This doctor said the first one was nuts for telling her to stop > everything. Well, the very first (and one of the few) 10Ks I ever ran in I finished in 44 mins (not a great time, but I could not do that now). However a lady finished just right in front of me. She was 7 months pregnant... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 17:17:12 PST Subject: the_dojang: Frustration This is in response to the many posts that have offered suggestions to "bad days syndromes." I know, laugh at me if you like but I no longer have bad day syndromes or bad hair days( although I'm sure some would disagree regarding the hair).....perhaps it's my age and experiences..but I just have days. Each day is unique. I don't have any expectations of what the day "should" be like. They are just days and each day brings with it some new and unusual experiences. Each day I wake up to is most unique. For me, a unique experience. Some are absolutely delightful and others just plain suck (excuse me if I have offended anyone). But I try looking at each day as a day. I don't monitor my day or temper them. I dont' have any expectations. Wouldn't it be delightful if we woke up and won the lottery and everything was great. But expecting that each day will be perfect sets a person up for a fall. Nothing is perfect. And I have found out that I have learned the most from the days that most individuals refer to as "bad day syndromes." However, in dealing with the days that do suck, I have found that if we don't put so much emphasis on them it tends to resolve itself. I just think we need to be kinder to ourselves and more accepting of ourselves. We need to cut ourselves some slack once in awhile. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 21:27:21 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Stretching book or manual > > I am looking for a Stretching book or manual, If anybody could help me I > would appreciate Some of the best streching advice you'll ever find comes from Brad Appleton and can be found at... http://www.enteract.com/~bradapp/docs/rec/stretching/ Hope this helps. Steve Mower Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:42:14 EST Subject: the_dojang: solutions In a message dated 1/23/99 4:58:00 PM Central Standard Time, the_dojang- owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com writes: << IMHO, the letters should express your concerns, but also your ideas for how to improve the situation. Saying "things must change!" doesn't do nearly as well as "perhaps [fill-in-the-black] is one possible way to improve our art/sport's competitive events". Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com >> Exactly! And as I have said before, you can make a difference. But I know from my own personal experiences, if you re going to complain, be prepared to offer a solution and be prepared to help implement it. In November, I was privileged to be allowed to meet with the USOC Task Force on TKD. And I can tell you that the Task Force was not interested in listening to people complain for the sake of complaining. They wanted to know how to fix the problems and if the fixes that are already in the works will do what is needed. I would like to add also that while having a doctor on site seems to be a reasonable expectation - in reality it is not. I personally would prefer to have a paramedic at the scene versus a doctor. Paramedics and EMT's deal with the immediate emergency - and this is their specialty. Consider, the gynecologist you con into being medical would not be as prepared to handle a head shot as an EMT. But that is me........ Ronda J. Sweet LadyTKD@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:46:34 EST Subject: the_dojang: woman's studies OK - since we have hit on dating and pregnancy are you ready for a real tough question? One of the referees at the recent US OPEN asked me this question, and while i have dealt with this situation only twice in my many years, I toss it out to you. You are refereeing a match - two females, and one of them suddenly gets hit by Mother Nature. Do you stop the match and let her take care of the little problem? Do you let her continue knowing how embarrassed she is going to be when she finds out? Do you leave the problem to her coach? The referees in this ring were so embarrassed, they did nothing and let her fight, unknowing. In the two cases I had, it happened just before the fight started, and I sent coach and competitor off to deal with it and went on to the next match - coming back to them later. But......... What does anyone else think? Ronda J. Sweet Ladytkd@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Sarles Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 23:08:30 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: smaller & bigger > From: "Perry Seto" > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 09:44:47 -0800 > Subject: the_dojang: thanks [snip] > > I'm glad to meet another "short" person. Being short has never bothered me > but has always made it a bit of a challenge when it same to sparring. With > TKD being such a kick oriented art, I found that kicking my opponent was not > always possible (unless I wanted to break his knee cap - like in a real life > situation) :-) > > I would like your/anyone's comments on how you deal with sparring "bigger" > people - especially in today's world where it seems like noone punches and > noone scores punches. In my club I just punch them anyway. It may not > "score" but it defnitely lets them know I'm "there". My strategy has always > been to make sure I try to not let bigger guys get full extension on me with > their techniques. I either stay out of their reach and keep moving until I > can close or, when they attack, I rely on moving away angularly or move in [snip] Nice post Perry. While I (typically) get to spar people that are shorter than me, every once in a while I get someone that is taller. I have to stop and tell myself to do the same things you mentioned: lots of moving, jamming and get in close. This is what I tell people I work out with. Nothing wrong with using your hands. Even though the 'tae' comes first, 'kwon' is in the name and just as viable a weapon when fighting as the 'tae'. Actually if you think about it, you'll see many TKD'ers go through a match and never throw a punch. So what's wrong with using just punches on someone for a whole match if it works? Michael Sarles msarles@ior.com ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:13:08 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Ki Frauds. . . >> An 11-year-old Emily Rosa came up with an experiment that clearly >> demonstrated practicers of therapeutic touch were no better at detecting >>an "energy field" than if they had just guessed. >> Michael >> 1st Dan TKD >> Ph.D student in Human Genetics, Yale University >> >True..it was a fine example from a 11 year future scientist. However...it has one major flaw....Emily herself participated in the >experiment. Therefore...it lost a bit of authenticity for me. I think the jury is still out on the Human Energy Field. I would have been >much happier if it had been some sort of double blind study. (John Hancock) I know this one ain't P.C. either but--I've been following this debate for years. It reminds me of the tendency of mainstream M.A. publications (Black Belt, Inside Kung Fu, Tae Kwon Do Times, etc.) to present Ki/Chi/Qi as an infalliable truth, often choosing to showcase the covers of their publications with "demonstrations" of internal power. Sad to say, most of these "demonstrations" consist of what can pretty much be summed up as cheap carnival tricks. The deal where an individual lies upon a bed of nails & has concrete blocks/large stones smashed on his/her body, slicing fruit/veggies/sushi on someone's torso/arm/leg, pushing a spoke or large needle through the loose & fatty tissues of the arm or neck & suspending buckets filled with sand or water et al. from the spoke, and the so-called "unliftable body" have nothing to do with "internal power" (ki/chi/qi). They are simple tricks which depend mainly upon two factors: 1. Science (the realities of physics, biology, etc.), and 2. The Gullibility of the Public. Realizing too of course, that some individuals (generally students) who perform these tricks (often at the behest of their instructor) may actually believe that they are taking some risk when that is in fact not the case. I suppose that many schools feel that they need to employ these methods during demonstrations to attract more students, but using such means hardly seems honest. While magic is a respectable field in the entertainment industry, where most viewers are privy to the fact that the stage conjurer is simply displaying wonderful illusions (even when they haven't the slightest idea --how-- the tricks are done), in the martial arts, for some reason, people who view the "tricks of the trade" so to speak seem to have a deep rooted desire to believe that the "master" is actually displaying some sort of paranormal ability. Perhaps it is related to the erroneous ideas much of Western "Civilization" continues to foster concerning the so-called "mystical East". Anywhoo, anyone wanna start a thread on common martial arts tricks, or the ethics of the aforementioned? - --C.J. jgroff1@san.rr.com ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 00:31:56 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: . . .& Mystical Auras >> An 11-year-old Emily Rosa came up with an experiment that clearly >> demonstrated practicers of therapeutic touch were no better at detecting >> an "energy field" than if they had just guessed. >> Michael >> 1st Dan TKD >> Ph.D student in Human Genetics, Yale University >> >True..it was a fine example from a 11 year future scientist. However...it has one major flaw....Emily herself participated in the >experiment. Therefore...it lost a bit of authenticity for me. I think the jury is still out on the Human Energy Field. I would have been >much happier if it had been some sort of double blind study. (John Hancock) Funny. . .there has never been a scientific study of "auras" relating to intenrnal power (Ki/Chi/Qi)--because, get this, there is nothing for scientists to look at! We already have names for the "energy" that runs our bodies, biologists have pretty much figured it out (chemical reactions, etc.). Are we just substituting words like Ki/Chi/qi for the correct biological terms because they sound more mystical, more "martial artsy"? Maybe its just easier for us (collectively, most of us folks) to accept the simplistic explanation of our Sa'bom'nim or sifu than to try and understand the actual biological processes which take place in our bodies. So, can we actually define Ki/Chi/Qi? Does the definition fit anything common to or identical with scientific medicine (which, I might add, is much more prevelent in China than traditional medicine)? The only studies I've been able to view from Ki/internal arts practitioners measure nothing but body heat--which I suppose, is an aura, after all. But it seems mighty misleading to try and pass such a thing off as a spiritual or supernatural mystery. Is Ki really there, or must it, like all religion, be taken simply on faith (thus making it a religious element)? Anyone wanna share concrete, well documented proof of the existence of Ki? After all, the burden of proof lies with those who claim the existence of something, not those who doubt it. Or perhaps someone has a definition more sensible than the mythical crap we usually hear? - --C.J. jgroff1@san.rr.com ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:40:57 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Pregnancy, Reiki John Hancock mentioned that he wouldn't let a woman practice late into her pregancy. I really hope you were joking John! take a look at this picture of my wife from May 1994: http://www.indiana.edu/~iutkd/pics/pregnant.jpg This is her side kick at 9 months pregnant. She did make some concessions to the pregnancy (her first) -- she stopped full power kicks after about 4 months, because she was starting to get small pulls (the hip joints loosen up) and because she didn't want to jar the baby too much. She also did no sparring (although she did one step sparring still). She managed to keep in good shape throughout the pregnancy. Corwin (the baby) is doing great by the way, and you can check out the baby pictures at my father-in-law's site: http://physics.indiana.edu/~pollock/corwin.html I know several other women who have trained through pregnancy and all had no problems. Now, if you want to get them nice things to eat and drink AFTER practice, I'm sure they won't have any objection! :) I thought I'd add one funny story about reiki as well. Most of the folks that I practice with are very interested in reiki. It never interested me, for a lot of reasons, and this meant that I was always having one person or the other trying to prove that I should do it too. One morning at a seminar, another friend decided to try and as it was early in the morning, I was not really in the mood. So when he laid on hands and began the healing, I showed surprise and said, "wait... wait! I feel a pink healing energy flowing down my spine and into my knees!" He said "really?" and I and the 10 people who were watching exploded into laughter. I was then forced to assume groundfighting position to protect myself as he tried to get his revenge. :) It had the proper effect though -- nobody has tried laying hands on me lately (although I'm sure I am the recipient of the occasional long-distance reiki). Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: Ben Blish Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 04:52:19 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki / Chi / cough / TDD V6 #44 Michael Osier wrote: [clippage] >I only know of one "scientific" study of human energy fields... >Therapeutic touch has been described occasionally in the literature, >and has now suffered a huge blow. [clippage] >In short, properly conducted scientific experiments do not exist in >support of human energy fields. [clippage] Michael, Thanks for injecting a narrow thread of sanity into this. I can't tell you how dejected it makes me feel to watch martial artist after martial artist fall for old age / new age "glittering generalities" such as ki because of a critical lack of an intuitive grasp of basic physics and body mechanics. I don't blame either the buyers or the sellers in this intellectual commerce (I blame the high schools, frankly) but that only makes it somewhat easier to put up with, considering that it serves mainly to misdirect understanding of what is actually going on and relegates otherwise competent high level martial artists into a class with crystal gazers and astrologers in the minds of exactly those who we would most like to take us seriously. Gah. :( The fact that one can leap across a chasm and make it safely and accurately does not imply an understanding of the equations that describe such body motion, nor the chemical and electrical processes that work to cause such motion. Yet it is easily done without such understanding. Similarly, the fact that one may be an amazingly accomplished martial artist, capable of astonishing feats of skill and the rendering of an opponent quite helpless or senseless does not imply an understanding of the "why" of things; only the "how". I consider it a profound shame that a detailed mythology has grown up to attempt to explain things to those who are otherwise lacking the tools to understand. Ben Blish "30 years of training, 3 languages, several more dans, several arts, and so what, anyway. :)" - --- Ben Blish Mi Kuk Tae Kwon Do Ji Do Kwan - -> bblish@dojang.com [or] - -> bblish@blackbelt.com [or] - -> bblish@glasgow.com [or] - -> 2blkbelt@nemontel.net ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:13:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: MA and Pregnancy Gone are the days (and quite rightly so) where a pregnancy, under normal circumstances, is treated as an illness - "put your feet up for 9 months, honey". _________________ Haha! From a woman that's been there done it, (in other words I didn't read about Gloria Steinem in history books; I was at the original bra burning event...and childbirth would not be a new experience to me; NOW didn't mean today it meant the National Organization for Women; and I love lava lamps and Woodstock.....I must say that if somebody offered me the opportunity to put my feet up for 9 months I would take it....not even a doubt! :) Doesn't mean I'm weak. Quite the contrary, I wouldn't want to cross me. I now know what to appreciate and value in life. I've had to survive and be strong most often from necessity and occasionally from stubborness and the desire to prove that I can do it. Don't need to anymore. And quite frankly we sometimes don't think about the long term effects of pushing ourselves a bit much when we're younger. It catches up over time, in many different ways. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 07:22:38 PST Subject: the_dojang: Frustration > How do you handle the "bad day syndrome," when nothing seems to go right even though you *know* the techniques or form you are working on?>>> ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Humor me on this but it's true! I just realized why a bad day syndrome doesn't seem so bad to me. It's because I've had (like many other individuals) "Bad Year Syndromes." Guess it's just a matter of perspective! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 08:05:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #46 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.