From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #48 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Mon, 25 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 048 In this issue: the_dojang: The other half : was 'thanks' Re: the_dojang: The other half : was 'thanks' the_dojang: Re: Rhonda's question the_dojang: Re: Ki(laptrap). / TDD V6 #47 the_dojang: Re: women's studies the_dojang: Re: Ki the_dojang: Re: pregnancy the_dojang: Confusion or development the_dojang: Creatine the_dojang: email address the_dojang: RE: Frustration. the_dojang: A vote for Mr. Willy the_dojang: Ki/chi the_dojang: Understanding Ki the_dojang: Re: Ki/Chi the_dojang: M.A. schools, Y2K issue the_dojang: Re: M.A. schools, Y2K issue the_dojang: TKD - An Ex-treme Sport? the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Jewell, David" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:23:00 +1000 Subject: the_dojang: The other half : was 'thanks' "Remember - half the world's population is below average height" And I'm one of them, like Perry. It's unfortunate that the WTF style rules favour the taller competitor without any compensation for the techniques required by shorter people. If your reach is less than your opponent then you have to stay well back out of harm's way, which makes it difficult to counter quickly enough (unless you're real quick compared to your opponent). Or, get in real close so that their kicks are ineffective. Here though you need to use your hands, but WTF rules don't regard such techniques for scoring but if you hit hard enough it can unballance your partner giving you the opportunity to kick as they 'stagger' back. Alternatively Perry, develop so good fast and high jumping kicks. cheers DJ... ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 14:44:07 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: The other half : was 'thanks' > "Remember - half the world's population is below average height" > And I'm one of them, like Perry. Well, yes, David. But then with that red hair you're rather cute. Or at least your wife hopefully thinks so... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: steve mower Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:57:07 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Rhonda's question In the two cases I had, it happened just before the fight started, and I sent coach and competitor off to deal with it and went on to the next match - coming back to them later. But......... What does anyone else think? Ronda J. Sweet Ladytkd@aol.com I've been lurking here for months, about to jump into the fray of great topics of best martial arts moment, CPR/first aid, even romance and pregnancy. Just as I work up the guts to jump in... Rhonda asks her question... sets me back for two months:-)! Seriously, been some great reading, Ray, and all the members of the do-jang have been putting up some great reading. Thanks Steve Mower Woodbury Heights, NJ ------------------------------ From: Ben Blish Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 16:51:13 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki(laptrap). / TDD V6 #47 Michael Burnett, C.Ac. wrote: >As an acupuncturist with 20+ years martial arts experience, I just HAVE to >step in here. The statement above served no purpose for me other than to >cause disbelief in the fact that a PhD student could say such a thing. Let me >see if I can explain this so you can all understand with some clarity... "Ki" >(or whatever other word you choose to use) has a very simple explanation - it >is "energy." Nothing more, nothing less. Actually, a great deal less. And harmfully so, at that. And energy, in the sense that you're attempting to use it here, is a catch-all mystical term with no meaning and a great deal of weight thanks to generations of crystal gazers, chiropractors and others related to the common duck. Energy is something one learns about in a physics text. If one is to use it in an allegorical manner, then restrain the allegory so that the usage remains sensible - energy in an economics equation makes sense. Energy as "ki" or the "spirit of a crystal" makes none whatsoever without being surrounded by just the kind of generalities you are presenting here, and the sense that makes then is deceitful in the truest meaning of the word. Even if you don't know. When I lie, or state an untruth in an issue of concrete data, and someone repeats it in ignorance of the facts, they are promoting a lie - no more, no less. While one can argue the responsibility, at no time does the lie become less reprehesible, or more true for that matter. Basic ethics. > There is nothing "mystical" about >it anymore like there may have been centuries ago, before we came to >understand biology, physics, physiology, kinetics, etc. Ki is nothing more >than a word that can be used to describe anything that has the power to >influence anything else. Sunlight is ki (we need sunlight for life). Food >has ki (we need food for energy). Adrenaline is ki (it compliments our normal >energy levels under stress). Proper breathing techniques raise the level of >"ki" (or energy) in our bodies. The higher the oxygen saturation of our >blood, the more efficiently our bodies work. Our attitudes and intentions are >ki (if you are focused on accomplishing a task, it is more likely to happen >than if you aren't concentrating on it). The bio-magnetic (electromagnetic) >current that runs through our body is ki. This current can be traced and >measured with modern scientific equipment, so don't anyone try and say it >doesn't exist. And let me step in right across from you as a 30 year martial artist, an engineer, a sometime research scientist and a debunker of nonsense such as we have seen in this thread. Energy is energy. Chemicals are chemicals. "bio-magnetic" is a nonsense term used by the ignorant. Electrical current flow creates magnetic fields. Conversely, magnetic fields induce electrical flows. Biological organisms are only capable of creating primary magnetic fields directly when they have significant amounts of polarizable material present (very unusual, and never the case in humans unless they've been involved in an industrial accident or a chiropractor or other quack has put very sharp magnets in their shoes or something equally ridiculous...) but when electrons flow, magnetic fields appear as a secondary and completely predictable effect. It has NOTHING to do with "bio" anything; its the other way around. Current flow = magnetic field. Period. Adrenaline is adrenaline; and LSD is LSD. Wrapping up all manner of things under one roof and calling it "ki" does not bring truth to the table; what it does is provides a broad milieu of events and data points from which the wrapper can pick and choose supporting constructs for the current situation. If it sounds a lot like the creationist religionist dogma base, that should be no surprise to anyone - because it works *exactly* the same way. But these things, while they often interact in our world, are categorized in different areas because indeed they are disjoint from one another to a degree such that anyone with any scientific training at all can see the distinctions with ease. The problem? The lack of scientific training in the general populace, and the number of gullible subjects thus created. Poking someone with a sharp needle is very likely to have one effect or another, as the nervous systems that serve as our control linkages are inordinately complex, "wired" in an exceedingly interdependent manner which can fairly be described as almost chaotic, yet similar from person to person. Poke someone in the brain, solar plexus, the elbow joint, or some minor nerve and you get large, immediate effects. Fine. All very reasonable and predictable. Likewise, subtle and delayed reactions of the organism are reasonable to assume, and I have no trouble believing that you, as an acupuncturist, indeed can cause such effects, though I have run across absolutely no documented evidence that supports such claims - I have not looked, either. But attributing this to "ki" is the first sign to me that the speaker is spewing nonsense; either they don't know how things actually work, and KNOW that they know, or they don't know that they don't know - but either way, they have no real explanation to offer and so proffer trashy pseudo scientific nonsense and gibberish. In the former case, they are dishonorable, and in the latter, they are ignorant - and spreading it around. Either way, we'd be much better off without such twaddle. However, going back to what I was saying previously; what we have here are myths created to encompass results in an explanation that can be "swallowed" by the ignorant. Ki is nonsense. I submit that there is no benefit, and much harm, in visiting the intellectual dumping ground of mythology in order to get, or induce, a "warm and fuzzy" feeling in anyone. If one doesn't understand the science, be humble and simply admit it. If one *wants* to understand the science, then study it, by all means. Intense, complex, fascinating stuff. Effectively endless when compared with the capacity of the human brain. But "ki" and its brethren are far from the truth they claim, or the harmless allegory that some might like to label them, and as you have attempted to do here. All disinformation and myth are major league counter productive, as far as I am concerned, and bring shame upon knowing promulgators in the long run - and sympathy for the deluded as well. We look upon the witch burners of Plymouth as ignorant and more evil than those they burned; we look upon the participants in 19th century "snake oil" marketing as low and sleazy. Each generation looks back with the light of more knowledge and decries those promoters of myth and simplification. Science is well past the stage where "ki" and glib citing of "everything is energy" and "crystals have power" should have any weight whatsoever, but the snake oil merchants are still with us. It's time to shut them down. And if we love the martial arts, by Darwin, perhaps it is time to clean up this "ki" garbage once and for all. Just because something comes out of the Orient does not give it the status of wisdom. There are people over there murdering rare and endangered animals to consume the dust of their bones and organs; burning incense to imaginary spirits; pushing unmitigated mythological trash such as that contained in the I Ching; and yes, pushing claptrap like "ki". The orient, like everything else, including martial arts, has its very good and its very bad right there at the root levels. Will we be throwing bones to predict the outcome of tournements because they do so in the orient? Shall we wrap womens feet and destroy their utility for them because it was considered the thing to do there? Shall we circumsize them and eliminate their ability to orgasm? I say, nay - we should take what is good from all cultures, including our own, and discard that which we can clearly see is not based in reason and honor. To go to the root of the thread: Power does not come from ki. Power does not come "from the ground". Power in the martial arts is kinetic energy, application of leverage, and most importantly, *knowledge*. The knowledge of what to do and when to do it; the knowledge of when "not to be there"; the knowledge to apply only as much force of any kind as to achieve the desired goal and no more. Because one can create an effect, and then point to it and cry "ki", many are deluded. But nothing, including the belief of millions in something, makes the not-so, so. Eventually, this always comes to light. A pope, if not "the" pope, eventually apologized for jailing Galileo; those who thought Columbus was destined to drop off "the edge" are long silent. Those who claim that humans are "special" and animals have no intelligence are entering a period of nervous silence as various forms of communication with apes and other creatures reach, and pass, important milestones. Those who claimed computers could "never" play chess are red faced. I think it very likely that those who claim computers will never be able to contain an intelligence will face a similar embarrassment before much longer. Personally, I find much honor in being able to say "I don't know", and none at all in viewing myth and baseless claims as anything more significant than a glittering generality used to keep the ignorant as ignorant as possible. "30 years of training, 3 languages, several more dans, several arts, and so what, anyway. :)" - --- Ben Blish Mi Kuk Tae Kwon Do Ji Do Kwan - -> bblish@dojang.com [or] - -> bblish@blackbelt.com [or] - -> bblish@glasgow.com [or] - -> 2blkbelt@nemontel.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Sun, 24 Jan 1999 18:50:05 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: women's studies jamaica wrote: << There are no written protocols for these types of occurrences. >> hmm...perhaps there should be. if theres a precedent of an occurrence, then we can now plan for it, eh? melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Osier Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 01:45:57 +0000 ( ) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki Michael Burnett wrote: > Let me see if I can explain this so you can all understand with some > clarity... "Ki" (or whatever other word you choose to use) has a very > simple explanation - it is "energy." Nothing more, nothing less. > There is nothing "mystical" about I will say this one more time as it appears I wasn't clear enough the first time: my concern was with the statement that there is scientific proof of Ki, not whether or not Ki exists. Despite my request for citations from reputable journals, I have still seen none. If a claim is going to be made that science has accepted Ki, "show me the money". Show me proof that science has accepted it. Otherwise the original statement is misleading. If you wish to use such a broad definition of Ki, the term becomes dilute and for all practical purposes useless. It no longer describes something, it describes everything. When telling a student how to improve their frontkick, saying "use your Ki" doesn't tell them anything useful. Saying "push off with the back (kicking) foot and make a good chamber" with a physical demonstration is far more useful, because it tells them something specific that they can work on. So for me (<-- key words, "for me") Ki is not a topic I discuss much with my students. Seeing how we're discussing an issue which is deeply felt on both sides, we should attempt to keep a flame war from starting. There is certainly no one on this list who wants that. :) I know I'm not going to convince anyone who wants to believe in it that Ki doesn't exist, and those who believe in Ki aren't going to readily convince me it does (certainly not over email). So if anyone has reputable journal citations, I'll be happy to continue the discussion about the claim that science has accepted the existence of Ki. Otherwise, I'm going to try my hardest to ignore the other comments concering the existence of Ki. Michael - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Osier = michael.osier@yale.edu | "He is not well rounded who does http://chloe.hgs.yale.edu/~og/ | not have an equally keen interest BS Biochemical Science - UVM | in all of the things within the Yale University | compass of painting." Human Genetics - Og | Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ From: "Oh Captain, my captain" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:40:44 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Re: pregnancy > everything. He said no contact sparring, no high kicks, but otherwise > to do what she was comfortable with. She did start training again for a I think this says it all about pregnancy and activity. If it's uncomfortable, don't do it. If it is comfortable, you body isn't telling you that something is wrong, so go ahead. James ------------------------------ From: Piotr Bernat Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:01:21 +0100 Subject: the_dojang: Confusion or development I fully agree that on a certain level of proficiency, it is good to compl= iment your chosen art with some other, preferably concentrating on different as= pect of combat (for example, TKD + Hapkido, Karate + Ju-jitsu or Judo...). But= , there is another question: How about competing in different systems? I`ve= heard mainly two opinions: some people think it can be only good to you s= ince it makes you more versatile, some people are against it since they think = one should concentrate on their chosen art only, and everything else leads to= confusion. I met several people who were very good in more than one style= of sport combat (in good old days there were people winning Polish champions= hips in WTF, ITF and Kick Boxing on the same year...), but there is also a big= TKD association in my country which forbids=A0people to enter any events oth= er than their own recognized tournaments. If you are a member of this organisatio= n and you compete in events hosted by other ones, you are expelled... I would be glad to hear other people`s opinions on competing under differ= ent sets of rules. - -- = Piotr Bernat dantkd@polbox.com ------------------------------ From: Karel van der Walt Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:48:31 +0200 Subject: the_dojang: Creatine Hi Now that we are onto Adrenaline : Has creatine been tried by any on the list? What have your experiences been with it? Training? Competing? I tried it for 3 weeks and stopped because it caused me not to sleep - for three weeks. (Ok I have a weird routine of study till 23:00 - 23:30, train till 00:45 which may be did it. The point is I started training like that to be able to sleep after using the mind intensely. ) Creatine worked except for mild cramping during loading phase. Karel van der Walt ------------------------------ From: "Perry Seto" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 00:21:27 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: email address Sorry, I forgot to include my email address with my last post and I think my header has the wrong one on it. It should be pseto@aptl.com - -Perry- pseto@aptl.com ------------------------------ From: CMPorter@webtv.net (Chris Porter) Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 05:00:55 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: RE: Frustration. Frustration, mistakes, having a bad day, week, month, year etc. are the GOOD parts of life. What do I mean? We all enjoy it when things go our way, when we get what we want , and we should but it is very important the we see the "BAD" for what it is, A CHANCE TO LEARN ABOUT OURSELVES. Think for a moment how boring life would be if every day was pefect, there would be no reason to apply oneself because everything would be just fine, there would be nothing to master. Try and use those rough times in a very special way, really look into what is going on with you, then you will learn about yourself and about why times get rough. Your veiw of things is your reality, see why you are having a rough time, if you can do that you can turn those rough days into the best days of your life. I hope this helps. "To master oneself you must first recognize that you are slave to oneself or theres nothing to master" ------------------------------ From: Bernard Eddey Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 16:45:23 +0800 Subject: the_dojang: A vote for Mr. Willy Mr Hancock was very astute in noting my failings in not being a true SNAG. The decision as to whether or not a woman should continue training while with child should, of course, be made in consultation with her significant other. My S.O. kept to a fairly consistent exercise pattern up to about 7 months - after that it was size really did matter. BTW John. re. that solitary sperm - you have no doubt heard the old saying - if you don't use it you could lose it. Bernard Eddey 1st Dan TKD Shanghai. ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:01:35 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Ki/chi Hi, (I'm writting this quickly so please excuse any spellings or fill in words) I am aware of the theraputic touch catastrophy, but reiki is very different and is used in many hospitals here in Boston. it is becoming a very accepted form of treatment. Reiki works to align the energy in a living being to promote healing. People who are treated see and feel the results. Barbara Brennan is the best source for information on the human energy field along with being a sceintist. There are other books on reiki, some I recommend, some I don't. If reiki is not a succesful form of treatment then why have some many people turned to it? Why have hospitals and Drs turned to it? Why does Tufts university teach it to there medical students? Like I said Reiki is different than the theraputic touch (there may be similarities to an extent but the form of treament and methodolgy is different). Reiki has made many changes for the better in peoples lives. And is continuing to do so. If is wasn't making a difference then how come hospitals are using it? How come Reiki Practitioners/masters are being reimbursed by some medical insurances? It has healed a permanent damage ligament of mine, removed almost all PMS symptons (I occasionally get moody, but it sure beats taking medication to kill all the other symptons), and I could go on. The masters which I know of keep a journal and record the results and what took place during the treatments. Recording the issues at the beginning and the results at the end. Quantifying with there best ability, the treatment. If you are at Yale New Haven I would like to suggest that you try a treatment. I trained in Reiki under Mstr. Charles Ferraro of the TSD Mi Guk Kwan, headquaters are in West Haven. Please give it a try before you knock. just give it one try and feel free to ask him questions, he is extremely knowlegdable in M.A. and holistic health. Thank you and I would like to continue this discussion (but when I have more time). - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:21:54 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Understanding Ki Thank you Michael for a clear definition of Ki. Sometimes, my words just don't come across like yours did. - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 07:30:18 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki/Chi Michael Osier: <> Well first of all humans are going to have a hard time detecting an energy field in the first place, Therapeutic touch is not really about detecting energy fields, it is about the therapeutic nature of touching itself. Also that article in the JAMA was written by the mother who was very partial about the outcome. I would rather see an independent research study that was done and conducted by people who do not care one way or the other about the outcomes of the studies. MO: <> This is false, it is common knowlege that humans have energy fields. There is an electromagnetic field around all human beings, this is very simple to measure and see. As for the directing of this energy that is a different matter, But anybody can tell you the difference in ability that is demonstrated when an individual focuses their intent into something. Does this prove Ki, NO. But, does show you that you must concentrate and let the energy flow through your being. Don't resist the flow of your energy since this sets up resistance and weakens the individual. Enough for now. Engage Cloaking Device ************------..... Mike Rowe ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 08:52:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: M.A. schools, Y2K issue Hi all, I just want to email everyone some information about making sure there systems will function through all this Y2K stuff! but it is a great deal of information. So if you are interested in testing your school's computers for the y2k bug and avoiding being part of the massive computer crash that is being predicted, please email me stating you want info on the y2k and the email address that you would like it sent to. I will send (in about two weeks)out simple tests that you can preform on your PC's to see if it will crash. - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 09:07:16 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: M.A. schools, Y2K issue My email address might not have been picked up by your system, it is stacy.owen@marcam.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:15:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: TKD - An Ex-treme Sport? In particular the competitors look like they've gotten faster and stronger I am amazed when I watch them do their double, triple and quadruple round house kicks. And just the sheer athleticism is astounding.....Perry Seto - ------------------------------------------- My thoughts exactly and why I feel TKD is quite possibly turning into what ESPN calls an Ex-treme Sport. A few years ago some ex-treme sports started to become recognized on TV because they were not accepted as mainstream sports. When this happened in came the Mountain Dew commercials and their popularity incresed. Every weekend they have extended television coverage. Over the last few years they have been gaining in popularity. The ex-treme sports are best known for having the athletes push themselves way beyond reasonable limits. New sports are created almost monthly. With the advent of more complicated kicks and increased athletism as mentioned by Perry Seto in his post I think we are also giving the cues that this is what you must do to compete and score points. While there is still some concern for the execution and technique the athletism and sheer power and force are taking precedence and being applauded. The problem is the force is directed at an opponent. And the force generated is so powerful with the advent of many new training techniques, health supplements, and the desire to improve this power and the extension of muscle endurance. Years ago you were most complimented if you could generate a kick and stop it within an inch of your opponent. I'm not sure that anybody is even teaching that anymore. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 06:27:31 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #48 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.