From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #51 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 26 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 051 In this issue: the_dojang: re:Someone elses fight....... the_dojang: Re: Ki the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #49 the_dojang: Airplane? the_dojang: Eskrima-Digest the_dojang: Ki the_dojang: Re: stepping up BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Black Belt Systems (fwd) the_dojang: Control vs. Full Contact the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Aaron J Woodburn Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:35:21 EST Subject: the_dojang: re:Someone elses fight....... Jamacia wrote: If you came upon an incident where someone else, say a complete stranger, was in trouble would you assist? Trouble could be anything from having a flat tire to getting mugged or maybe roughed up, to being verbally or physically assaulted. Would you be more likely to assist if you were alone or with your friends? What if you were with a loved one. Would you leave your loved one (him/her) standing alone to tend to someone else's needs? And two more, what if it were a woman that was being abused by a boyfriend, or Would you go to a friends house if they were having out-of-control marital disputes or would you call 911. ____________________________________________________________________________- Whenever faced with a difficult problem that I just can't seem to solve, I consult the five code sppirit of TSD, (I know that originally there were over 100 codes, but in my organization we have boiled them down to five all encompasing codes of conduct: (theyre not in any order, and they all hold the same importance) 1) Be Loyal to your leader 2) Obedience to parents 3) Honor Friendship 4) Always finish what you start 5) In fighting choose with sense and honor.<<<<<<<<< Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 01:25:08 +0000 ( ) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki Mike Burnett wrote: > Have you ever seen "proof" in some journal that electricity exists? yes...the electron tubes were quite a hit last century, and they were published in scholarly journals...:) > Have you ever seen proof in some journal that sunlight exists? Have > you ever seen proof in some journal that adrenaline can increase your > strength temporarily? Yes? No? Doesn't make any difference really, > because if you need to read those things in a "journal" to believe > them, then I feel sorry for you. If you believe in any of those > things, then you believe in "ki" if not by name. 1) You completely ignored my point about how calling "Ki" any energy dilutes the term and makes it useless. One could say "God is everything". That doesn't prove the existance of God or that God has an effect on anything. That kind of argumentation is a copout. (please, please note that I'm not saying God doesn't exist! :) 2) I don't trust everything I see or feel. Magicians are an example of the senses being used against the observer. Have you ever seen a magician? Do you believe it's really magic or sleight of hand? BTW, Carl Sagan (again :) has a name for your type of argumentation: "Special Pleading" which often is used to rescue a proposition in deep rhetorical trouble. Example: Question: "How can there be an equally godlike Father, Son, and Holy Ghost in the same person?" Special Plead: "You don't understand the Divine Mystery of the Trinity." (Sorry to use an example with God again, but it's a classic case) Your statement "I feel sorry for you" is another argumentative fallacy: "pleading to emotion". Feel sorry for me all you want. It adds nothing to the credibility of your argument. 1) Prove to me that Ki has an impact on anything. Show me a controlled study. 2) If a claim is going to be made about science accepting Ki, be prepared to back it up through science: "show me the money" (show me the journal). Michael - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Osier = michael.osier@yale.edu | "He is not well rounded who does http://chloe.hgs.yale.edu/~og/ | not have an equally keen interest BS Biochemical Science - UVM | in all of the things within the Yale University | compass of painting." Human Genetics - Og | Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ From: Chuck Sears Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 20:13:25 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #49 > > From: scink > Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 12:14:38 -0600 > Subject: the_dojang: Ki, power > > Ben Blish wrote: > > > To go to the root of the thread: Power does not come from ki. Power does > > not come "from the ground". Power in the martial arts is kinetic energy, > > application of leverage, and most importantly, *knowledge*. The knowledge > > of what to do and when to do it; the knowledge of when "not to be there"; > > the knowledge to apply only as much force of any kind as to achieve the > > desired goal and no more. > > Just to clarify, I did not intend that power literally came from the > ground as a form of mystical energy that flows through anything and > everything in the universe. This sounds way to much like the basis of a > movie called "Star Wars". I would rather not get into that discussion. Go with ki / the Force, Luke. My $0.02 is simply this: The Force is like duct tape. It has a dark side and a light side and it holds the universe together. ------------------------------ From: Sam McPherson Date: Sat, 10 May 1997 22:27:10 -0400 Subject: the_dojang: Airplane? > From: "The Hostetlers" > I have a picture of an Aisiana Airline 747 with it's left wing slicing through > the > tail of an Aeroflot IL-26 in a ground incident that happened in November 98 > in Anchorage. Could this possibly be an Aeroflot IL-62? > To me, it's *JUST BEGGING* for an "Oh SH*T!" across the bottom. Even better, in > Hangul... The best one I saw was of Air Force One with the front wheel stuck in the mud hanging in the Air Force One complex. The caption read "Not going anywhere for a while, better have a Snickers." > Robert W. Hostetler hostetb@iserve.net > Indianapolis, IN Sam McPherson ------------------------------ From: Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 19:51:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Eskrima-Digest Just fyi... In case anyone is interested in the other list I administer. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com - --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Do you practice Eskrima/Kali/Arnis or some other Filipino martial art? If so, why not join the Filipino martial arts e-mail distribution list? Eskrima-Digest is a ~1000 member e-mail distribution list for the discussion of Filipino martial arts. We are nearing 5 years of continuous operation. The list is managed by "Majordomo". To subscribe to eskrima-digest send e-mail to the address; majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com with subscribe eskrima-digest in the BODY of the message, top line and left justified (not in the subject line). Also, make sure your e-mail is not in HTML format. Brought to you by http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Mabuhay ang eskrima! ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:43:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Ki Hi all, Last night I turned on the history channel to see a story about Jack LaLanne (sp?). It reminded me of what is going on with holistic healing, martial arts, and the ki/chi energy that we are speaking of. When Jack started he was criticized by the medical dr. They told him that exercise would kill people! From his broadcasts (which they said would only last 6 weeks) other people started to develop fitness routines, starting with the astronauts. The gentlemen who created/deemed the word aerobics for what it is today, developed a fitness program for the astronauts. From their he sold books titled 'aerobics' encouraging people to run and ride bicycles - again medical Drs. stated that there would be dead runners on the side of the road and that it would harm the human body, not helping it. What would we say to all this today? - it seems pretty unbelievable in today's times with everyone excersizing that the Drs. who so encourage it, once condemned it. Again I like the quote "The real voyage of discovery consists not in seeking now landscapes, but having new eyes" Marcal Proust If medical society is going to advance itself in new ways then it needs new angles of attack on illness. The ki/chi energy which we discuss in martial arts is one of those ways, which I hope develops in society. If we as humans look outside of ourselves for the answers, then we are losing ourselves on a journey which could be answered from within. To become a good Martial artist you have to look within yourself to bring out the best - if you rely on other people to do it for you, how can you succeed on your own. And when it comes to the ki/chi energy - that is within us, we have to find it and use it to our fullest potential, achieving health, balance, and peace of mind through the practice of martial arts (or anything else). What we don't accept in today's time's such as the existence of the ki/chi energy could become a permanent part of our lives in another decade. - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 09:36:10 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: stepping up > And two more, what if it were a woman that was being abused by a > boyfriend, or > > Would you go to a friends house if they were having out-of-control > marital disputes or would you call 911. > > > Jamaica Jamaica, Hmm, yet another interesting topic courtesy of Jamaica. Are you secretly scoring points to win a free t-shirt from Ray :0) OK, seriously. As a woman I am more prone to help another woman. Admittedly I look them over to see if they have ways of concealing weapons, ie BIG purse, layers of clothes. I rarely offer someone a ride UNLESS we're talking interstate 95 which is quite dark and has MILES between exits. And only because once when I needed help, stranded with my then infant son and no building in sight, another young woman took us to my mother's work so we could take care of things. Today that is different b/c anyone with a cell phone can report that someone needs help without placing themselves in danger. What I always do is say a quick prayer and wait for a "gut feeling" for lack of a better word. On the highway I find it better to pass someone and go back to help them if you want to. It gives you more time to think it through. I never help a group of guys/men for ANY reason. I phone it in. I don't feel safe to help a group of women either. Watching the news gives me the creeps and a bit of paranoia although I like to think of it now in terms of "condition yellow". Now, 911 is my new best friend. For the past year or so we have had the neighbors from hell. They have a WHITE TRASH emblem on the rear window of their car and they live down to it. I call b/c it needs to be done. I wish it were ANYONE but me. I worry and lose sleep. I live in fear that my 6 year old will be awakened by them and then ask me to explain whats going on. What do you tell them? By calling 911 I believe that I protected an innocent, vulnerable fetus while her moter either couldn't or wouldn't. [don't flame me I'm merely stating an opinion.] Also, neither of my kids were awakened. Bear in mind we are talking 3-4 times PER WEEK. I won't go up on a Socialogical soap box but I do remember learning that when we are in groups, or in public Help [if there is any] is often delayed b/c we stop and think. Should I do something? Will the other people do something? Well, in our bldg of only TWO apts. there is no other "somebody". The decision was mine and mine alone. personally, I think we help society in the long run if we can help kids in these families. Now honestly, many times I have waited if I hear him in the hall. when his door closes then I go out or check the mail. The first few weeks I swear I lived believing he would come after me because I am the only one who could've heard them and called. If I pass him in the hall he is always polite and smiling and I just shudder to have seen him and been in the same area as him. I HATE the fear but can't be untrue to myself. My husband's favorite line from a movie is "THE LINE MUST BE DRAWN, ...HERE!!" I feel that way A lOT. Someone has to show the example I guess. I think it worked b/c last night she and the kids moved out and he is still here. Last night I slept like a baby. I am glad that I haven't seen a fight or a jumping in the city. Once I saw a man throw a bucket at a homeless woman and tried to get out of the car. My husband stopped me. Instead I blared the horn, LOUDLY for over a min. As people investigated the noise it made "big bad guy" feel self conscious so he left. I hung around a bit to make sure he didn't come back. My first instinct is to run right in and it may just be the death of me yet. I did once see an incident in a grocery store that no one else did. I swear I have Negative Radar or something. Anyway, when he went off to get cigarrettes I looked her straight in the eye and said "I know where you can get help. Its free and its close". She wanted the name and number so I gave it to her, went promptly into the bathroom and threw up. At that point shopping was useless so I just left. Now I carry a small business-card size card with a list of organizations who make it their business to help. Each day I hope that no one will need them but reality is what we must live in so we ought be prepared. It will come as no surprise that I have added Hapkido to my training. I hope to train for a good long time so I can defend myself against "big guy types". I just didn't feel the TKD I had been taking really prepared me for the street. The TKD I do now is very different and I'm relieved but I still feel the need to take Hapkido. I know how I have lived the past 27 years. I live with regret wishing at times I HAD done something, feeling good when I DID. What I want to know is what do the experts on the list recommend? What do you teach your students to do to help. How much help and in what situations? How much should my personal safety matter? Now that I take the MAs does this change anything??? This should be an interesting discussion for sure. Thanks Jamaica. Dawne No1IDIC@aol.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:15:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Black Belt Systems (fwd) Come on folks, post from the address under which you are subscribed. Thanks. Ray - ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Black Belt Systems ] Date: Mon, 25 Jan 1999 21:57:49 -0700 From: Black Belt Systems Subject: Ki-rist, more glittering generalities / TDD V6 #50 Mike Burnett wrote: >It doesn't really matter what 'you' think about "ki" -- all I did was explain >what it is as the word is used by Asians. In Chinese, Korean and Japanese, >the word "ki" (chi) is used in reference to ALL of the things I described in >my first post. Sigh. So, if your position is that the graph for ki unifies all things energy, and therefore all things energy-related are unified, you've established absolutely nothing useful about energy - only about the graph, its history in the language (accepting your scholarship with regard to wu, which is a different issue... I'm *quite* familiar with them myself, as I teach both Hanja and Hangul to all my students... like most Hanja, or wu, ki takes on many meanings in many contexts.) In any case, this... "the graph for ki unifies all things energy, and therefore all things energy-related are unified" ...is classical circular reasoning, and I am extremely wary of such use of logic, myself, and for well justified rationales. Ki, as a Hanja element (meaning, the Chinese character, in Korean), means steam, breath, or gas as a root character. (reference: Bruce Grant's guide to Korean Characters.) One good example of this is the Korean "ki po", which means "bubble" or "blowhole". Ki means air, gas, breathe. It does *not* mean "energy" and the use is clearly well defined as a mundane term in Korean and Chinese. And yes, "ki po", in Hanja, uses the graph ki which you refer to... as there are more than one, as is per usual with these characters. These Hanja are somewhat new in Korean, as they took them characters from the Chinese written tradition already wholly formed. So in the first place, the root character isn't limited at *all* to "energy" descriptions. You will find the Hangul... | - ---- | | | | | | ...(ki) embedded in *many* words and phrases that have *nothing* to do with energy. That's phonetic Korean. In Chinese - which is where the Hanja came from - you'll find an even broader set of uses. The root wu (Chinese character) "ki" was derived from what we can generalize as the regulating principle, a mystical and nebulous concept for things that the Chinese had neither words nor science (at that time, this is certainly no longer the case for educated Chinese) to understand. The character itself is rooted more in gas than in mysticism - the general agreement on the etymology of the character is that the three strokes at the top are depicting vapors rising out of a pot of boiling rice or grain. (popular western press references for you: China, Empire of living symbols by Lindqvist, *a wonderful* book), and Eberhard's dictionary of Chinese symbols.) I would emphasize here that there are many ways the Hanja are used in Korean, and even *more* so in Chinese - there are many graphs that are literal, many that are used *only* in a phonetic sense, and many that have become common use simply because some graphs were easier, more convenient, or less confusing to use. For a westerner to state authoritatively that a graph has only one meaning or that its root "sense" is monadic presumes a *huge* degree of scholarship on the part of the claimant. I have been at this for decades now, and I would *never* make such a claim myself, having run into divergent meanings in everything from classic literature such as the Tao to modern sillyness such as Korean baseball comics. From where I sit, which is at least fairly characterized as not ignorant of the wu - I know about ten thousand of them, a start on the 50 thousand I'd *like* to know - "ki" is a widely used, multiple root, almost generic character that finds far too many roles from phonetic through the literal to be used as any kind of justification for any holistic interpretation of the universe or the state of being of a human or the human's actions. Despite the Chinese mystical la-la about the concept. My old ji do kwan and hap ki do master, 8th dan at the time, said that "ki is for ha-la-la", by which he meant that it was for the idiots, or the handicapped. Unkind, but pretty darned clear. Today, I agree, based entirely on my own perceptions of the concept and the world as I know it. > There is only one ideogram used to write the word "ki" -- and >that ideogram is used for so many different things -- things ranging from >breathing, to attitude, to adrenaline and so-on. I'm not trying to force >anyone to buy into any belief one way or the other about it -- if you pick up >any Chinese-English or Korean-English dictionary and look up the work, you'll >find the same stuff I told you. All I am stating is fact. But the fact is irrelevant to the issue that wrapping such a wide array of things under one western roof is unscientific, highly inaccurate, confuses and strongly misleads our students, coworkers and peers. Further, since the term ki has been brought into play by the holistic fractions of the pseudo medicalists as well as martial artists who do not have the training to actually understand what it is that describes what they can do, giving it such a broad scope is equivalent to assigning the word "stuff" to something. Ki is an absolutely meaningless term as you present it here - "energy". You do NO service to anyone by glibly stating that ki is everything from hormone to whore moan. It elightens no one, and it elucidates no useful information OTHER than my exact point: The word is far too broadly taken in western pop culture (and yes, that absolutely includes most martial arts mileus) to be of any use to anyone any longer other than those whose goal is to flummox and mystify, goals I feel to be inherently evil. As you define ki, the following is written fairly well. However, it loses a great deal of sense unless you really work on context, and have a fairly wide experience base to draw inference from. In that case (I think), it's simply funny. It serves as a humorous illustration of why ki deserves to be tossed out on it's ten stroke little buttocks as far as western understanding of martial arts, medicine, acupuncture and everything else goes. We don't need "ki". We've already got the word "stuff", after all. :) Anyway: "The ki of the bomb was infused with the ki of gravity as the ki of the motors pushed the mild ki of the atmosphere away, releasing huge ki that swept away the ki of the Iraqi ki projection emplacement, infusing the ki of Saddam Hussain with directed ki for revenge while Bill's ki remained splattered on something that really should have been subject to the dry cleaner's ki, obtained from the electric company and the chemical company... and if only the ki of the batteries had been less substantial, or the ki of the magnetic particles had been more stalwart, not to say more highly polarized (he said) then Ms. Trip wouldn't have been such a ki-rappy confidant." C'mon. We need specific terms for specific things. Potential energy. Inertia. Stasis. Current flow. Induced magnetism. Gravity. Velocity. Leverage. Weight. Air. Adrenaline. Voltage. Intent. Liver function. Blood pressure. Flatulence. > That fact is >this... "Ki" is energy (in other words, Ki can be anything that can influence >anything else). And there you have it. "Ki can be anything that can influence anything else". If there ever was an argument for tossing the term in the trash, you just made it for all of us. What a worthless concept for promoting understanding of anything EXCEPT the fact that the ancients, and todays ignorant followers of them, are severely lacking in terms and concepts for energy and influence. I have no problem with you saying that your needles influence body function, though I'd prefer a great deal more specifity - at least you are open for a question. When you say your needles adjust or modify ki, as far as I can tell, you might have just told me you steamed the guys liver, or might be saying that you caused him to buy stock. > Your attitude can influence someone else's feelings (think of >the look a mother gives a child when they've done something wrong), and the >Koreans call this "ki-maek". Nothing mystical about it -- simple fact is all >it is. The "windpipe" is called "ki-kwan-ji" -- the windpipe itself is not >"ki" -- but it is a vehicle through which "ki" (as oxygen) can travel. I can >go on and on with examples of how the word is used in the various Asian >languages - but I've already made my point. The only point you've made is that from your perspective, the word "ki" can be substituted for almost anything, in any situation, and subverted to any end purpose. And thus you have pointed out that it has little utility. Such use is a horrible and counterproductive use of language, unless you're trying to be poetic, and even then I feel that it is a literary cop out. Read the Tao; a wonderful place to find ki out of the current cultural context. And highly obtuse as a direct result. ><spewing nonsense>> > >Again, you fail to understand the meaning of the word. Hardly. I understand it in many contexts, just fine. The fact that people at one time thought that radio waves were transmitted by "the ether" in no way encourages me to adopt the concept. But I understand it very well. My position is that ki as used in the martial arts is a garbage word, one which is used to bewilder the student with BS. I stand by that. It's not a lack of my understanding that leads me to this view - it is a considerable understanding, at least, so I believe, of many issues, effects, principles and theories. And many wu, for that matter. > When "ki" is used in >speaking of acupuncture, it is nothing more than a reference to the electrical >forces upon which acupuncture acts. There are all manner of electrical >devices which can trace and measure the current in the body, so we have >factual proof that it exists. You'll not find a single doctor on the planet >who would refuse to admit that. If you'll reread my post, I believe I made it clear that current flow in the body is something I accept. I know, to at least somewhat more depth than simple popularized science goes, how nerve impulses are transmitted. I have written complex simulations of nervous systems, and done original work in neural network design based on those understandings and my insights into them. I have no trouble with the idea that there is current flow there, elsewhere, and that magnetic and electrostatic fields, albeit tiny ones, are thus created. Nor, as I said to you previously, do I have a problem with the idea that disruption of the system - with needles or otherwise - can have both small and large and immediate and delayed effects. I just don't know what they are, though I can conjecture quite a few. It's not an area of the least bit of interest to me, but I am not saying it is without merit. I simply don't know. > Additionally, with the devices I speak of, >you can measure changes in these currents as you go about needling specific >points on the body. Electricity is "ki" -- acupuncture has an effect on the >bodies natural electrical flow. Perhaps so. No argument. My argument is in your use of ki. You stick a needle into an electrical current, you affect the resistivity of the area, and by Darwin, that flow will change. Fine. Just say so. Go even further and say "...and this in turn causes the liver to increase its generation of bile" and I'll just nod and look stupid, and wait for the liver function measurements to bear you out. But when you say that "it increases the ki..." I'll just laugh at you... or maybe I'd ask you just how much steam is IN the liver, anyway?? It is interesting to note that mainstream medicine uses as much science as possible, and as precise a description of procedure and effect as possible. Historically, quackage, such as chiro-quackage, phreno-quackage, astrolo-quackage (eastern AND western) and crystal-quackage, bring into use terms that are as general as possible, along with claims that are as nebulous as possible, in order to baffle the ignorant petitioner to the furthest extent possible. You would be doing acupuncture a great service to lose "ki" and start saying "liver function", "blood flow" and so on. Just as we would be doing martial arts a great service to stop quacking about the "ki" of the student, and simply explain the physics to them. The problem being, at least in martial arts, that many practitioners, even very high level, accomplished ones, couldn't do it, because they have no idea - they're just passing on the BS from one generation to another. ><> > >How can it be so difficult to understand what "ki" is? Have you ever been >shocked by static electricity or have you ever had a sunburn? Have you ever >influenced someone's actions by mere facial expression (anger, happiness or >whatever)? If you say yes to any of those, then YOU HAVE PERSONALLY >experienced "ki" - whether you choose to admit it or not. You spew such >negativity about it because you refuse to understand what it is. When you wrote this, frankly, you *clearly* had no idea why I "spew such negativity", and I am not very hopeful that you know now, although I have attempted to be both clear and as elaborate is marginally reasonable in a mailing list. ><> > >Hmmm. So you also disagree that there is an exchange between the earths >magnetic field and our own? Foolish. I can be demonstrated with modern >equipment. We KNOW it happens. No, it probably doesn't add any "power" to a >martial arts technique, but it DOES exist. Mike, I may well be quite "foolish", but I think I probably know as much, or nearly so, about earthly and bodily magnetic fields as anyone likely to be on the list. I'm an extra class ham operator (the highest class). I'm an electronic design engineer. I worked for two years for datamedix directly on the front end of a halter monitor, something that reads the electrical activity of the heart *from the surface skin potentials*. I am intimately familiar with the electrical environment from that perspective, in fact. I am a programmer. I'm a rockhound. And I'm a overall a synergist, meaning that my philosophical approach is to work to integrate what I know from all corners of my little sets of knowledge. From this perspective, I deny your assertion confidently. Furthermore, the statement you are "hmmming" was related to striking power, in no way was anyone talking about interactions, if any, with between the stylist and the earth's magnetic field. The very fact that you are willing to draw such absurd inferences illustrates my point with vigor: Using "ki" to describe everything deprives the user of meaning. Learn to use the parts of the language for which those parts were intended to be used, and you will be less likely suffer such self-imposed public ridicule in this area. I think this ground has been covered; I feel that there is little further to be gained by extending this aspect of the discussion, unless you bring something new to the table. So I wish you well - feel free to have the last word, unless you particularly want clarification on something from me. Ben /========================================================================\ | Black Belt Systems, Inc. State of the Art Image Manipulation Software | +----------------------------I-N-T-E-R-N-E-T-----------------------------| | Web Pages: http://www.blackbelt.com | | Information: info@blackbelt.com Support: support@blackbelt.com | | Sales: sales@blackbelt.com Marketing: market@blackbelt.com | \========================================================================/ ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:21:10 PST Subject: the_dojang: Control vs. Full Contact Come to the Dark Side, Jamaica..... Have you ever looked in to training at a Tang Soo Do school? I have a feeling you would love it. Gregg Giddins _____________________________________ Alas Mr. Giddins I'm already am in the Dark and have been there for quite some time. It's enlightenment that I need. :) Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 08:45:08 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #51 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.