From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #52 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Tues, 26 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 052 In this issue: the_dojang: Re: Stacy on Ki the_dojang: Re: stepping up the_dojang: Pregnancy and MA the_dojang: Frustration the_dojang: Kuk Sul Won History the_dojang: How much is too much for your next dan? the_dojang: RE: To ki or not to ki... the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) the_dojang: Re: Chi/Ki/Qi [none] Re: the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) Re: the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) the_dojang: Re: Ki the_dojang: Re: the_dojang: Ki/chi the_dojang: Patches for Ray... the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Michael Osier Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:15:17 +0000 ( ) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Stacy on Ki Stacy wrote: > If medical society is going to advance itself in new ways then it > needs new angles of attack on illness. The ki/chi energy which we > discuss in martial arts is one of those ways, which I hope develops in > society. If we as humans look outside of ourselves for the answers, > then we are losing ourselves on a journey which could be answered from > within. Yes, science advances from looking in new directions. However, science also keeps itself from "falling backward" by being skeptical of ideas. For every one good new idea, there are ten or more which don't hold up to a skeptical eye. I'm not saying all new ideas should be discarded outright. On the contrary: new ideas should be held up to skepticism. If they can't stand up to skepticism, that's a good sign something isn't right and caution should be taken. What worries me is not the new ideas. What worries me is that scam artists always promote themselves as having the next great idea. The only way to tell the scam artist from the inovator is through skepticism. It truly hurts when I watch someone who wants to believe in something so badly that they can't step to the side and look at the idea critically. One of the best techniques in self defense is to be aware of one's surroundings. So, please, be aware of what you're getting into. Protect yourself. Michael - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Osier = michael.osier@yale.edu | "He is not well rounded who does http://chloe.hgs.yale.edu/~og/ | not have an equally keen interest BS Biochemical Science - UVM | in all of the things within the Yale University | compass of painting." Human Genetics - Og | Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:09:03 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: stepping up I'm the type of person that doesn't want to complicate an issue, even if it is an emergency. This means to me that I need to run and dial 911 to get the proper autorities involved with a possible life threatening situation. But having done that many times I have had three operator tell me that I was not in there juristiction to be calling them (this happened at the hotel where I worked and I had been calling 911 at least 10 times before that), most recently I have had an operator argue a situation with me (some car had there headlights off, it was rolling backwards down the street, it almost hit a cyclist, and there was oncoming traffic - hhmm, she said there was nothing wrong with the situation). Passed the place about a half hour later and there were police. During wind storms and bad weather, I call in potentially bad situations, sometimes the operator will tell me to call someone else, sometimes they will connect me through, and other times they will take the call (usually on the cell phone which is hard to write down another number to call). Stepping up is something that has been tested. If you are in a one on one situation the individual will most likely call for help and/or help the situation. If the situation is surrounded by a small group of people, people are less likely to help, if you are in a large group of people or on the street the cahnces of help are slim to none. I forgot the theory but it has something to do with the fact that if a large group has watched an emergency they everyone assumes someone is going to help the person. In a smaller group the assumption is still strong but there are higher chances of getting help. And if it is one on one then people will most likely help. This is why women can get raped in public and no one does anything to help, they assume someone else will take care of the situation. That is a case study I distinctly remember from sociology class. I make it a priority to get to the phone and report issue I see in public. If feel that is stepping up. Friends and or relative are a different matter. In those emergency situations I wil directly intervine if I need to. When it comes to strangers in an emergency situation, I don't directly get in the situation, but I do make the needed phone call. If a boyfriend and girlfriend are physically fighting, while I may be able to handle the man it is not my place to get involved with the physical confrontation, but I can help end it by calling 911. People can always help, but I think it is foolish, depending on the circumstances to put yourself in harms way. - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:18:59 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Pregnancy and MA Though I don't have a story of any pregnant people doing MA during there term, I do have a neat story on how someone managed to save her pregnancy due to her HKD skills. We had a lady that was an advanced student at the school. During her third trimester she was walking into a store. Since it had been raining, the store's floors were very slippery. When she entered the store she slipped and was falling forward. She managed to pull off a front roll and spring back up. Her husband insisted that they go to the doctors immediately just to make sure that all was fine. Everything was fine. The doctor told her that if she hadn't done what she did, then there was a high possibility that the baby could have been damaged severly. She is now back in the dojang doing well and the husband has decided to join since that incident. Jeremy Horangi99@compuserver.com JeremyT@atfi.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:29:01 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Frustration >How do you handle the "bad day" syndrome...< If my techniques are off no matter what I am doing, I go kick and punch the heavy bag to get out some of that frustration or negative energy, then I meditate for a couple of minutes to collect my thoughts and picture myself doing everything correctly. Everyone has one of "those days." The only thing that you can do is work through and even laugh at yourself. It helps. >How do you help your students work through that frustration?< When I see the lower belts having this type of day, I first of all re-assure them that they are not alone in what they are feeling. I first try to make them laugh at situation. This helps them relax a little, then I have them do the same as I. A few minutes on the bag, a few minutes of meditating, and then I ask them if they have any questions on any technique or form. This helps take their mind off of what they are frustrated about and place on something that they know they need to work on. Basicly I try to refocus their mind from the actual frustration. If I feel that there is something more than just a bad day at the dojang, I take them to the side and talk to them to make sure that all is well outside the dojang. Sometimes they just need an ear. Jeremy Horangi99@compuserve.com JeremyT@atfi.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:42:21 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Kuk Sul Won History Steve Gilmore, Thanks for the KSW history. Do you know if there are any schools in the Chicagoland area or do you know where I might try to find that information? Thanks. Jeremy JeremyT@atfi.com Horangi99@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 11:51:27 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: How much is too much for your next dan? I have a internal conflict. I have just invested about $375.00 for my next dan and I was under the impression that would cover the cost. However, I have just learned that there will be an additional $400.00 for the Kukkiwon test. First of all is this normal or about normal pricing? Secondly is it just TKD or do most martial arts charge a lot for a black belt? My conflict is that I do not believe in charging that much money for something that I know does not cost that much. I know that my GM is in a business and this is one of the ways of making money. To be honest, this was a reason that I stopped promoting 10 years ago. I did not believe in charging. Even when I was teaching, I would charge my students the price for the belt, the gas to go and get the belt and the certificates signed by GM Kwon, and the price of the certificate itself. My HKD instructor only charges the price of the belt. I have already take several pre-tests for my next dan. I thought the 5th test would have been my final test. So do I suck it up try to find the money and get the next rank or stick to my principals and beliefs and if so how do I talk to my GM about this? Jeremy JeremyT@atfi.com Horangi99@compuserve.com ------------------------------ From: "Atchinson, Kerry M" Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:04:24 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: RE: To ki or not to ki... Does too! Does not! Does too! Does not! Double does too! Triple does not! Geez, folks... Maybe it do, maybe it don't... All I know from my meager life's experience is that certainty, on any side of any question, is an extremely rare commodity, and those that claim to have it rarely do. Kerry kerry.atchinson@wichita.boeing.com ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 14:41:42 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) Jamaica: You appear to be stumbling about in the dark, looking for a way through the gate to enlightenment. My advice: Use your ki. :) Ki "Discussion" group: Sorry about that, folks. The Ki thread is interesting to me, but from my point of view, it's getting more and more heated with the same arguments over and over. It does get pretty Star Wars after a while. "There's no mystical energy field that controls my destiny." Controlling / Stopping Techniques: One of my students asked permission to go to a local club's non-contact sparring class. I said that it's a great idea, but warned her that much of what she learned there would be detrimental to her training here. If not dangerous. We do Olympic sparring. It has been my experience that it is difficult for black belts to do two or more different styles of sparring in TKD. Nearly impossible for lower ranks. Does this jibe with what others have experienced? E. Hart Burlington, VT ehart@zoo.uvm.edu ------------------------------ From: Tom White Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:55:45 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Chi/Ki/Qi The Ki/Chi/Qi thread. Disclaimer: I am *not* an expert in any of what I am about to say. If I say something "is", I mean that I believe that way. You are not required to agree with me. It depends on what the meaning of the word "is" is. (Now where have you heard *that* recently?) :-) - --- Well, this is a wonderfully interesting thread, which (IMHO) applies to psychology, physics, metaphysics and the martial arts. It seems to me that we might be talking about several things at once here, so let me inject my thoughts into the debate. *Meaning One* Chi/Ki, as Mr. Burnett explained, is a concept that has specific meaning in Asian medicine. In my Chinese martial arts training I learned that Chi was a non-mystical force that follows the "intent" of someone who can manipulate it. I say non-mystical because one person could move it and another could feel it. The word "mystical" has a specific meaning, so lets not get confused. The online Merrian-Webster Collegiate Dictionary defines mystical as: http://www.m-w.com/ "a : having a spiritual meaning or reality that is neither apparent to the senses nor obvious to the intelligence b : involving or having the nature of an individual's direct subjective communion with God or ultimate reality " My interpretation of this is that "mystical" is some experience that cannot be shared with another person. I can tell you something is red and you will understand, but if I tell you that I have experience the "Imminence of Being", what the heck am I talking about? If I can't specifically show the typical American skeptical inquirer in a repeatable way the "Imminence of Being" or the "Tao" then this person will be unlikely to believe. Worse, if I cannot show (prove) a _reason_ to inquire further, then I will be ignored and labeled a "new age freak" or something. The mystical is not penetrable by the scientific method simply because it is something that happens subjectively to each person that experiences it. The mystical is only penetrable by those seeking their own personal subjective truth, not an impersonal, objective (societal) truth. So if this is what you are debating, you will never resolve the debate via email. You will not find evidence of this in a respectable scientific journal, because for that journal to publish such an article, it would have to throw its credibility right out the door. If it doesn't "sound" scientific, then it must not be. Conversely, "Quantum Healing" isn't very scientific either! :-) *Meaning Two* The second interpretation of the meaning of the word Chi is, in my mind, more prevalent in western society. It is that Chi is a psychological "filter" used by the mind to communicate with the physical body. It is, perhaps, a shortcut through the brain, or even just an extremely complicated, but learned, response to external stimuli. It is a visualization technique used by the conscious mind to achieve a quicker response time, a more perfect alignment, a faster or harder technique or some such other desired outcome. Perhaps Chi is just a meditative technique learned by the ancient masters to calm the mind and focus it absolutely onto the thing we are doing, the "art" of our martial art. Perhaps both meanings are right, perhaps neither. Perhaps I'm just plain wrong. It doesn't matter. My point is that if a technique will help you improve your martial skills, then perhaps it is worth exploring. I have done research into the field of artificial intelligence, and I can tell you that we don't even understand consciousness, let alone the subconscious mind. If you don't believe in the power of the subconscious mind, read Jung. Why has this thread sparked such interest and hot debate? Because those moments in the martial arts when we achieve something truly great suggest to us that the mind is more powerful than we had previously imagined. We are the doers, not our bodies. When mind and body are undivided, then somehow there is more than the sum of the parts. And for you scientific / skeptical types out there, ask yourself this question: "Where is our science of the depths of the mind? Why don't we understand more about ourselves, and how can we find out?" How is it that the organazation and relationships of billions of interconnected cells give us intelligence? How is it that that intelligence interacts with a physical body? How can it interact more efficiently? Now, down to brass tacks. Who is right? I'll let master Ko Yuen answer: "To forget learning is to end trouble. The smallest difference in words, such as 'yes' and 'yea', can make endless controversy for the scholar. Fearful indeed is death, since all men fear it; but the abyss of questionings, shoreless and bottomless, is worse!" Tao Te Ching, chapter XX Ah, geez. On a clear email I can write forever. C'ya | Tom White, Senior Developer, Perfect Design Software, LLC | | 5801 E 41st Street - Suite 800a - Tulsa, OK 74135 (918) 627-0012 | | http://www.perfectdesign.com - twhite@perfectdesign.com | ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:14:40 +1300 Subject: [none] >>>>>>>>>> From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 07:15:42 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from [Black Belt Systems (fwd) Come on folks, post from the address under which you are subscribed. Thanks. Ray >>>>>>>>>> Or subscribe from all the addresses from which you want to post!! Brett ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:53:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) > One of my students asked permission to go to a local club's non-contact > sparring class. I said that it's a great idea, but warned her that much > of what she learned there would be detrimental to her training here. If > not dangerous. We do Olympic sparring. > > It has been my experience that it is difficult for black belts to do > two or more different styles of sparring in TKD. Nearly impossible for > lower ranks. Does this jibe with what others have experienced? I started in Tang Soo Do, full-power techniques with no contact. Later I moved to Taekwondo. I found that in Tang Soo Do sparring that my body actually got beat up worse primarily because you, or at least I, tended to stay in there and block. Thus you were blocking full power techniques. That hurts. When I went to Taekwondo sparring (WTF), in practice at least, you used medium-power techniques with full-contact. Not being as dumb as I look, even I could tell that I didn't want to hang in there when I was going to be hit with a fair powered technique. I also learned that it was a lot more difficult to actually hit someone than to come one inch from them. Difficult to explain, but at least that was my experience. YMMV. Now when I try to do no-contact sparring, I can't. I usually end up POing my opponent because I'm tapping them ever so lightly with my techniques. But I've also gotten to the point where I want my opponent to hit me. If I don't somehow get out of the way or deflect your technique, hit me. That is the best way to learn, IMHO. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 12:54:16 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: Re: Enlightenment :) Or as they say, Inner Peace Through Harder Contact... :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:47:32 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki Michael wrote... <<1) You completely ignored my point about how calling "Ki" any energy dilutes the term and makes it useless. >> How?!? That's what it is. The word "ki" as it is used in Asian culture does not mean one specific "mystical power". It is used is many ways -- what I am telling you is that ANYTHING that has the power to influence anything else, is "ki". That's not MY interpretation of it -- that is just offering a simple explanation from the dictionary. If you look in Korean-English dictionary, you will find that the word for electricity is "chun-ki". Notice how "ki" is used there? All I am trying to get you to understand is that "ki" is not only used when speaking of some mystical martial arts power -- and if that's what you think "ki" is, then again, I feel sorry for you because you refuse to see the whole picture - and it's hard to respect someones opinion on something if they purposely choose to be ignorant of the facts with which they try and argue. <<1) Prove to me that Ki has an impact on anything.>> Would you like to see scans of autopsy photos of someone killed by lightening? How about if I take a picture of my next sunburn and send that to you. Oh, I know, how about we see if we can pay somebody to hold their breath until they pass out. Ooooh, here's a good one -- how about we find someone with a nonunion bone fracture, who is required to wear a bone stimulator for 30 minutes a day -- to provide the necessary magnetic field which so happens to be the ONLY thing that will cause the bones to grow back together. Nah, I do think you would "believe" any of those -- even though they are proof-positive that "ki" exists -- whether you want to believe the definition of it or not. Mike Burnett ------------------------------ From: Paul Rogers Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:10:40 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ben wrote: >>>My old ji do kwan and hap ki do master, 8th dan at the time, said that "ki is for ha-la-la", by which he meant that it was for the idiots, or the handicapped. Unkind, but pretty darned clear.<<< This statement piques my curiosity, given what I've read about the meaning of the term Hapkido. How would you or your former master define the ki in Hapkido? Why would Morihei Ueshiba, Yang Lu Chan, Sokaku Takeda, Choi Young Sool (sp?), et al, incorporate the term in naming their art if that term was meaningless? >>>C'mon. We need specific terms for specific things. Potential energy. Inertia. Stasis. Current flow. Induced magnetism. Gravity. Velocity. Leverage. Weight. Air. Adrenaline. Voltage. Intent. Liver function. Blood pressure. Flatulence.<<< Well, I don't necessarily need specific terms, all the time. "Stuff" works for me a lot, "chi" even works for me quite often 8?). >>>I know, to at least somewhat more depth than simple popularized science goes, how nerve impulses are transmitted. I have written complex simulations of nervous systems, and done original work in neural network design based on those understandings and my insights into them. I have no trouble with the idea that there is current flow there, elsewhere, and that magnetic and electrostatic fields, albeit tiny ones, are thus created. Nor, as I said to you previously, do I have a problem with the idea that disruption of the system - with needles or otherwise - can have both small and large and immediate and delayed effects. I just don't know what they are, though I can conjecture quite a few. It's not an area of the least bit of interest to me, but I am not saying it is without merit.<<< Maybe a better strategy for those in the holistic, non-scientific camp (of which, I guess, I'm one, since I'm not a trained scientist) would be to challenge the scientific community to prove/measure human ki/electrical output/whatever. Jeepers, given the eloquence and background of the "non-believers" just on this list, the scientific/research talent is certainly there. I guess the thing that I find hard to believe is that every person who treats someone using some form of 'energy therapy' is a charlatan, and that every person (of the millions around the world) who practices techniques with the goal of "development of their chi" is a dupe. Paul "Dupe in Denial" Rogers, Round Rock, TX ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:25:59 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Ki/chi I'm behind in dealing with my email, but I've just got to jump in a bit on this one. I should point out that while I am a _firm_ believer in Ki, I am also a _firm_ believer in good science... and that pseudo-science is one of my pet peeves. ;-) [SNIP] > It seemed to me that you were asking about Ki energy in objects we > do not consider alive. However, they are alive in the sense that > they are made up of molecules (protons/neutrons/electrons) which > can have certain reactions to things such as heat (energy), wind > (energy), water (energy). Heat is indeed a form of energy. Wind is an example of something that _has_ energy - specifically, an air mass with some kinetic energy. Water is matter, not energy. (Well, OK, mass and energy are the same thing, but we're not talking about quantum electrodynamics here. ;-) > Everything has an energy to it (which is why we have harnessed that > energy for electricity over many years), everything can have a > reaction to an action, hence the sword bends against the ki energy. > It is possible to channel this energy to change things (not like > alchemy sp?) but to redirect or restore energy. You aren't using the word 'energy' in any way that I understand. Clearly you're not talking about any physical quantity. What precisely are you using that word to mean? > Think about this, when you are doing an aerobic workout like > sparring, what is your energy like and where do you feel you [SNIP] > focus and energy/ki are in alinement to acheive a certain goal. > Thus you ki energy has changed. Indeed, "ki" exercises can have dramatic psychological effects. Because of the connection between psychology and physiology (connections that we haven't even begun to understand), ki exercises can have an effect on physiology. However... > Science and other sources have come to acknowledge these forces as > exsisting ... this is clearly nonsense. Science acknowledges 4 forces: electromagnetic, strong, weak, and gravity. (In recent years, the first three have been 'unified' via fancy quantum mechanics - meaning that we now understand the electromagnetic, strong, and weak forces to be different manifestations of the same underlying phenomenon.) No scientific source that I am aware of would acknowledge "Ki" as anything other than a psychological effect (albeit an important and powerful one). > (they actually have proof of ten deminsions, ki energy or the human > energy field would be one of these - from japanese scientists and > others). First of all, don't confuse a force with a dimension. Secondly, AFAIK there is no proof of the 11-dimensional model that I think you're referring to. The proposition by some high-energy physics people of 11-dimensional space is simply one theory which explains the very confusing world of subatomic physics. To my knowledge, this is one of several competing theories which are, at present, not provable - we don't have particle accelerators big enough. There _is_ a human 'energy field', but it's just the very weak electromagnetic field created by our nerves. It certainly has nothing whatsoever to do with subatomic physics, and is far too weak to have any noticeable effects. > the energy/ki, making standard experiments with independent and > dependent variables almost impossible. This is making is a very > long and drawn out process to apply in every day life and medical > practices. A theory which cannot be proven is a useless theory. (Which is why I'm not in subatomic physics. ;-) > Albert Einstien and many other famous scientist have discovered and > laid the ground work for science to look into energy such as the > ki/chi, He did no such thing. > however nobody seems ready to accept the fact that we, as human > beings, energy. We have energy within our physical self that can be > used outside of our physical self. Of course this is true - we're filled with an energy called glucose, transported in our blood, which our muscles convert (via a complicated chemical process) into mechanical energy. As for anything more mystical than that - "ki" or anything else - there is absolutely no scientific evidence for any physical phenomenon. > The proof is there, it is just a matter of time before this door > swings wide open to the world of science and to us. I accept the power of psychology to influence many things in our body. Science has made very little progress in understanding this, but science _does_ have evidence for this. [SNIP] > Through the practice of Reiki and TSD's Chil Sung forms I have > experienced the ki energy's in ways which are virtually impossible > to discribe with words. The ki energy is as individual as the > human being who holds it, making each person's energy/ki as usinque > as their fingerprint. Precisely. I too have experienced "Ki" in a variety of forms. It is indeed impossible to describe with words, because it is strictly a psychological and (perhaps) physiological experience. Ki _is_ an important phenomenon. But, it is _not_ a _physical_ phenomenon, except insofar as it affects human behavior. Using quantum mechanics to explain it is misleading at best, and fraudulent at worst. - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:34:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Patches for Ray... Hello all, In the past I've requested patches from folks, from their school, organization, style, whatever. You'll see below those that I've received thus far. You can also see pix of them on http://www.martialartsresource.com, then go to the Korean side and look for the appropriate link down the list a ways (thanks Paul). So, if you have an extra patch from your school/style/organization I'd love to have it. Especially if you don't see it in the list below. Thanks. Ray Terry P.O. Box 110841 Campbell, CA 95011-0841 - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- o Kurt Rommel, McLean, VA, Mountain-Kim (TKD) Martial Arts o Michelle Manes, Boston, MA, Jae Hun Kim Tae Kwon Do o Brian Karas, Palo Alto, CA, West Coast Taekwondo o Judy Barnett, Richardson, TX, Nam Seo Kwan (AKaTO) o Brent Balfanz, Albertville, MN, Albertville Martial Arts Center o Tony Preston, New Jersey, Silver's Karate Center o Mike Martyn, British Columbia, Master Lee's Tae Kwon Do School o Wade Meeker, Ft.Worth, TX, Won Park Tae Kwon Do o "Cobbadah" David Jewell, Australia, Rhee International Tae Kwon Do o Danilo Fonseca, Washington, DC, American Tae Kwon Do International o Joe Aznar, Florida, International Taekwon-Do Center o Jesse Greenawalt, Milton, PA, American Federation of JuJitsu and Arnis and ChinMuKwan school o Carolyn Spetland, New Haven, CT, Mi Guk Kwan o Yves Morin, Quebec, Canada, French Canadian ITF and Baie-Comeau Club de Taekwon-Do o Barry Nauta, Netherlands, TKD Bond Nederland patch o Ed Weber, Ft.Worth, TX, Won Park Tae Kwon Do o Sandy Krueger, West Allis, WI, Hong's Tae Kwon Do o Jay Ferguson, Newton, MA, Cho's Olympic Tae Kwon Do o Lee Yu Jin, Malacca, Malaysia, Persekutuan Taekwon-Do Antarabangsa o Andrew Gage, Esat Amherst, NY, Master Chong's Tae Kwon Do o Glenn Uesugi, Honolulu, HI, Hawaii Sin Moo Hapkido o Marcelo Sarkis, Ontario, Canada, Balk's Tae Kwon Do o Erik Kluzek, Logan Ut, Chung Do Kwan Alliance o Steve Alexander, Toronto, Ghasry Academy of Martial Arts o Scott McCue, Woods Hole, MA, Hwang's Tae Kwon-Do o Robert Hostetler, Indianapolis, Indiana, Korea Tae Kwon Do Academy o Mike Heeney, Hamilton, New Zealand, Newzealand Tae Kwon Do Federation Inc o Todd Brandel, Boise, ID, Kim's United Taekwon-Karate Center o Ben Williams, Glasgow, MT, The Dojang - Glasgow's Center for the Martial Arts o Holcombe Thomas, Pusan, Korea, The Korea Hapkido Federation, The Kyung Moo Kwan o Joey Stinson, Park City, KY, The Cumberland Martial Arts Association o Jay Fallik, Buffalo, NY, Tae Kwon Do Chung Do Kwan o Nate Tschetter, Laguna Hills, CA, American Martial Arts Athletic Academy o Michael Harb, Sydney, NSW, Australia, JAI Martial Arts and JAI Tae Kwon Do Academy o Diana Woods, Austin, TX, Tukong Martial Arts o David Soruco, Bloomington, IN, Indiana University Self-Defense Club o John L. Holloway, Silver Spring, MD, Gentle East Martial Arts o Dana Glasspool, Burlington, WI, Martial Arts for Life Academy o Wade Meeker, Corpus Christi, TX, Lumampao Institute Martial Arts o George Petrotta, Idabel, OK, Universal Tae Kwon Do Brotherhood, World Moosul Kwan Federation, Universal Martial Arts Brotherhood, Chang-Hun Taekwon-Do Association o John Hughes, UK, Action International Martial Arts Assoc., Brikenhead Taekwondo Schools o Wade Meeker, Corpus Christi, TX, Oriental Sports Center Korean Martial Arts o Kevin Dowell, St.Francis, MN, Flying Colors School of Karate o John Leylegian, Princeton, NJ, World Tae Kwon Do Association o Steve Mower, Woodbury Heights, NJ, Yi's Karate Tang Soo Do o Bob Follett, Tewksbury, MA, Kwon's T-USA Martial Arts o Brett Kraiger, Wellington, NZ, Brooklyn Taekwon-do Club o Sean Hawkins, Beacon, NY, United Tae Kyon Federation o Angel, Malden, MA, American Tang Soo Do Association & Byrne's Tang Soo Do o Geoff Booth, Liverpool NSW, Australia, Australian Hapkido Group and the International Hapkido Alliance o George Petrotta, Idabel, OK, World Taekwondo Association, Federation of Independent Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido Sun Moo Kwan, National Tae Kwon Do, North American Hapkido Association o Darren Crookshanks, Lisburn, N.Ireland, Great Britain TaeKwon-Do Association o Ray Simmons, Mendon, MA, Northeastern Tae Kwon Do Academy o Alex Paredes, Pomona, CA,American Dae Woong Chung Association ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 13:35:56 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #52 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.