From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 27 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 053 In this issue: the_dojang: Ki/Chi the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #52 the_dojang: Science the_dojang: Controlling / Stopping Techniques the_dojang: Stacy on Ki the_dojang: Re: ki-CHOO! / TDD V6 #52 the_dojang: Ki and Sensitive New Age Guys the_dojang: Online Bookstore the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won History/Chicagoland the_dojang: Kukwulwon history the_dojang: This list and histories of Korean MAs. the_dojang: Your Family's Personal Safety Re: the_dojang: This list and histories of Korean MAs. the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! 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Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: David Steffen Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:38:42 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Ki/Chi > From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> > Date: Sat, 23 Jan 1999 13:34:53 -0500 > Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #44 > > > An 11-year-old Emily Rosa came up with an experiment that clearly > > demonstrated practicers of therapeutic touch were no better at detecting > > an "energy field" than if they had just guessed. > > > Michael > > 1st Dan TKD > > Ph.D student in Human Genetics, Yale University > > > > True..it was a fine example from a 11 year future scientist. > However...it has one major flaw....Emily herself participated in > the experiment. Therefore...it lost a bit of authenticity for me. > I think the jury is still out on the Human Energy Field. I would > have been much happier if it had been some sort of double blind > study. I haven't read the article, so I don't know about the scientific approach used. However, I _can_ confirm that there _is_ a human 'energy field' - humans create a _very_ weak electromagnetic field due to our neural activity. Nerves operate, in part, by transmitting electrical impulses down their length. This creates a very small amount of electromagnetic radiation, in exactly the same way that power lines create EM radiation (which is what all those recent studies and lawsuits were about). However, the amount of EM radiaion from a human is _really_ small, and is only detectable by very sensitive instruments under carefully controlled circumstances. It is absolutely _not_ responsible for the "Ki" phenomenon. Let me repeat that: THE ONLY KNOWN "ENERGY FIELD" PRODUCED BY A HUMAN BEING IS ORDERS OF MAGNITUDE TOO SMALL TO ACCOUNT FOR ANY "KI/CHI" PHENOMENON! - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:53:33 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #52 <> Prove evolution, the Big-Bang, or Creation. These are all theories. That is a part of the definition of Theory. It is not provable yet, just highly possible, more so than a hypothesis. When it is proven it then becomes a Law - Law of Gravity not the Theory of Gravity. Mike Rowe ------------------------------ From: David Steffen Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 16:07:25 -0700 (MST) Subject: the_dojang: Science > From: Michael Osier > To get back to the reason for my reply, a claim was made that > "science and other sources have come to acknowledge these forces as > existing". I have neither seen nor heard proof of that statement. > And no conclusive demonstrations are to be found on Medline (a > service which does searches of the medical literature). Thank you, yes. And well stated. > I won't force my beliefs about Ki on anyone (although I've > expressed them reasonably well above :)...everyone is free to > believe as they wish. But making claims of scientific proof holds > a great deal of weight in modern society. As such, they must be > backed up lest people be potentially deceived by any false claims. > I see no proof. This kind of think is, in part, why I started my "physics of martial arts" email list. (Which I should be administrating instead of catching up on the_Dojang! ;-) > From: "John Groff" > Subject: the_dojang: Ki Frauds. . . > [SNIP] > publications with "demonstrations" of internal power. Sad to say, > most of these "demonstrations" consist of what can pretty much be > summed up as cheap carnival tricks. Indeed. Which is not to say that there isn't some interesting physics behind the demonstrations. ;-) > The deal where an individual lies upon a bed of nails & has > concrete blocks/large stones smashed on his/her body, slicing > fruit/veggies/sushi on someone's torso/arm/leg, pushing a spoke or > large needle through the loose & fatty tissues of the arm or neck & > suspending buckets filled with sand or water et al. from the spoke, > and the so-called "unliftable body" have nothing to do with > "internal power" (ki/chi/qi). They are simple tricks which depend > mainly upon two factors: 1. Science (the realities of physics, > biology, etc.), and 2. The Gullibility of the Public. Yes. Particularly #2! And also mix in the fact that the instructor performing all of this stands to gain in several respects from the demo - mainly, more students and more $$. Certainly a situation which inspires a lot of distrust on my part! ;-) > so-called "mystical East". Anywhoo, anyone wanna start a thread on > common martial arts tricks, or the ethics of the aforementioned? Well, the "ethics of the aforementioned" is IMHO obviously bad. Want to bet that there's a correlation between demos using "ki tricks" and the aptly-named "McDojang" syndrome? ;-) > From: "John Groff" > Subject: the_dojang: . . .& Mystical Auras > We already have names for the "energy" that runs our bodies, > biologists have pretty much figured it out (chemical reactions, > etc.). Are we just substituting words like Ki/Chi/qi for the > correct biological terms because they sound more mystical, more > "martial artsy"? Actually, no - people are trying to use mumbo-jumbo science (usually quantum mechanics, because it sounds cool and nobody outside of universities really understands it) to back up claims of, essentially, paranormal phenoemena. (Call Mulder and Scully!) If people were just substituting "Ki" for adenosin triphosphate (sp?), people would be saying how powerful Ki is because we can move because of it. ;-) Being able to move our bodies isn't exactly news to most people, so there's no reason to make outlandish claims concerning it. ;-) > which take place in our bodies. So, can we actually define > Ki/Chi/Qi? Does the definition fit anything common to or identical > with scientific medicine (which, I might add, is much more > prevelent in China than traditional medicine)? Acupuncture _is_ accepted in the US as a valid medical procedure, although nobody knows how it works. It is known that most of the "ki meridians" approximate nerve pathways, so the mechanism is likely some sort of direct nerve manipulation. As we're still working on understanding how nerves work, and have no idea how the _brain_ works, the mechanism by which Acupuncture works is a complete mystery. Also, the placebo effect has been known forever. Unfortunately, the medical community has tended to look down on it, instead of using it to serve the patient. (Scientific American had an article on this a few months back IIRC.) (Note I'm not suggesting that acupuncture is merely a placebo - it isn't. Last I heard, the medical community was pretty sure there was a measurable effect being generated.) > or supernatural mystery. Is Ki really there, or must it, like all > religion, be taken simply on faith (thus making it a religious element)? I'm pretty sure it's just a faith kind of thing. But, this is not to be scoffed at - faith is, in my experience, a tremendously powerful _psychological_ force. > From: Ben Blish [SNIP] > I don't blame either the buyers or the sellers in this intellectual > commerce (I blame the high schools, frankly) Bingo! > Similarly, the fact that one may be an amazingly accomplished > martial artist, capable of astonishing feats of skill and the > rendering of an opponent quite helpless or senseless does not imply > an understanding of the "why" of things; only the "how". I consider > it a profound shame that a detailed mythology has grown up to > attempt to explain things to those who are otherwise lacking the > tools to understand. Well, science is A) hard to understand, B) harder to do properly and C) central to our modern society. People tend to put a lot of blind faith in things that sound scientific. (Lousy science reporting in the press doesn't help much either.) So, if you're trying to sell something, and can come up with some scientific-sounding stuff to back up your claims, it tends to sell product... ... until I show up! ;-) ;-) You can still find ads for magnetic 'razor sharpeners' here and there - supposedly you put your razor on this thing every night and it keeps your blade sharp for ever. And look at the money alternative medicines is making these days! (And my physics students wonder why I'm such a stickler for clear thinking!) - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Steffen Wave after wave will flow with the tide Dept. of Physics And bury the world as it does Colorado State University Tide after tide will flow and recede steffend@lamar.colostate.edu Leaving life to go on as it was... - Peart / RUSH "The reason that our people suffer in this way.... is that our ancestors failed to rule wisely". -General Choi, Hong Hi ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 15:11:02 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Controlling / Stopping Techniques >>Controlling / Stopping Techniques: One of my students asked permission to go to a local club's non-contact sparring class. I said that it's a great idea, but warned her that much of what she learned there would be detrimental to her training here. If not dangerous. We do Olympic sparring. It has been my experience that it is difficult for black belts to do two or more different styles of sparring in TKD. Nearly impossible for lower ranks. Does this jibe with what others have experienced?<< Not really. *If* they are brought up with different styles from the beginning. I have usually ended up in schools where beginners are taught no contact sparring, then gradually move up to heavier contact as they advance. And the contact is determined by the lower ranking student, so it was not just taught, but REQUIRED to know how to spar no or light contact. If a green belt (who just started sparring medium contact) pairs up with a white belt, then the match is _no_ contact. And I've rarely seen problems with that. If a blackbelt can't pull his techniques when sparring a lower belt then he doesn't spar, same for green or red or orange. If a black belt spars everyone full contact all the time what is he teaching the lower belts? That he's a bad ass? We've always used sparring as an opportunity to teach a lower ranking student the dynamics of fighting, and I've found that people don't learn very well when being slammed around by a gung-ho upperbelt trying to prove his superiority. I think both no contact and heavy contact are crucial to develop a martial artist. Of course, to become a ***fighter*** you can blow off that "kicking in the air crap" (honest, a fellow I work with called it exactly that). And may as well flush your forms, too. If you just want to learn how to slip and strike you don't need all that goofy pre-arranged stuff... But me, I would take a forms class over a sparring class any day. And I have a better time shadow sparring an orange belt than kicking around another black belt. Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 17:17:00 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Stacy on Ki Thank you Michael for the words of warning. I do approeciate it. I have experienced scams and seen claims, I don't fall for those and I don't ignore my feelings on somethings. I love to play the devils advocate when people make claims and I love a good arguement with people about belief's. I am aware of many of the scams out there and the palcebo affect, I do not have all the time in the world to point you to the resources on reiki or Ki that I have or that I am aware of at this time but I will send you anything I can come up with in the near or distant further that you might enjoy! I will start looking into it when I am home. One thing I always like to point out to people is that if you go looking for something (science and lay people) you will most likely find it just because you are looking for it. I like the idea of ki/chi and I do feel it is present in Martial arts therefore I will look for information to support this, and by all means send me any disqualifying information (like I said I love a good arguement) If we have to leave this out of the Dojang digest that is fine by me also. I still suggest that if you are in CT that you at least try a treatment just for the experience if nothing else. - -Stacy ------------------------------ From: Ben Blish Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 18:24:05 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: Re: ki-CHOO! / TDD V6 #52 Paul Rogers wrote: >>Ben wrote: >>My old ji do kwan and hap ki do master, 8th dan >>at the time, said that "ki is for ha-la-la", by which he meant that it was for >>the idiots, or the handicapped. Unkind, but pretty darned clear. >This statement piques my curiosity, given what I've read about the meaning >of the term Hapkido. How would you or your former master define the ki in >Hapkido? Why would Morihei Ueshiba, Yang Lu Chan, Sokaku Takeda, Choi Young >Sool (sp?), et al, incorporate the term in naming their art if that term was >meaningless? Master Lim said that: "...everything needs a name. Tae Kwon Do is a name. Ji Do Kwan is a name" (the latter means "way of wisdom school", more or less.) I agree, and that's pretty much it for me. Invoking names of great martial artists inspires me not at all to believe that ki is anything more than Asian mysticism. Which is not to say they're not still great martial artists. You can't make an effective case to me that "because a bunch of high profile, respected people say so, it IS so." I'll point you to religion as an example; a bunch of people - and I mean a BUNCH of people - follow one religion, and a bunch MORE people follow another. The religions, as often as not, are seriously at odds with one another over one or more issues. If one is right, the other is wrong. Perhaps they're BOTH wrong. But no matter what, a BUNCH of highly respected people are WRONG. The same thing applies to new science and pseudo science. Things are not right because people "say so" or "beleive". They are right because, and if, they are right, and for no other reason. Our task, as I see it, is to use the best tool we have available to us (which is science, from where I sit) and figure out what is right and what is not. As for why use it, whether *they* believe it or not, which I am not about to judge from a distance and without any evidence either way, the net effect is to enshroud the actuality of martial arts - body mechanics, intent, skill, timing... all the reality based components - in a veil of mysticism which serves multiple purposes. It sets the "masters" apart from the students. It provides a reason to look inward (although I think you can do better with discussion of morals and ethics, personally). It gives martial artists a grab-bag of poorly defined "inner feelings" to anticipate, and so when experiencing high levels of achievement, flashes of insight, series of correct responses to threats which invoke high levels of confidence, even elation, they can say "I Felt The Ki". This last bit is a very big deal, especially for some people. I believe that this is very much like the "born again Christian" experience. People often derive the "revelatory" experience from a deep well of some sort of problem situation - despair, fear, anxiety, loneliness - and the feeling pretty literally slams their psyche upside the head as they shuck those feelings and replace them with one or more very positive ones - that someone/something cares about them, and they don't have to feel the way they have been feeling. You end up with some pretty enthusiastic Christians. When one has been trying - for years, more than likely - to "get" a pattern, or develop a sense of calm that can be called into play on demand, and for all those years have experienced only incremental advances, if any, and then one day, for whatever reason, we "get it right", I think that experience is an enormously powerful event and something that affects the present state of mind to a large extent. It's difficult to describe, and it is certainly a very complex reaction - the more so when experienced *though* a controlled sense of calm and extremely accurate physical orientation - and it is my present opinion, based on my own experiences here as well as the observation of many others, that this is a wonderful thing, but not, in any way, a mystical thing. Not everyone is well able to "reach inside" and describe what it is they feel; they may not have the words, or they may simply be so overwhelmed by the experience(s) that they are unable to categorize what it is they are/were feeling. So be it. Still, there is no reason at all that I have ever encountered to assign the mystical to any part of the event or to the gestalt itself. I have no problem calling it a revelatory and intense experience. I like it myself, and it is *definitely* one of the things that has kept me in the arts all these years. But mystical? No. All of these things provide motivation for the names of arts and techniques to incorporate references to those experiences, and as I have maintained all along, for some time mysticism was the overriding concept - so it seems pretty normal to see these references in older arts, from where I look at it. Mysticism, secrecy and yes, fear, are interlocking portions of what we can fairly call psychological power. That is another very powerful reason to shroud things under a mystical blanket. Secret organizations such as the Masons, Voodoo practitioners, and churches all use this now and have used it since day one as leverage upon others both within and without their compass. When a kid playing says "No! only a NINJA can kill another NINJA!", where do you think that comes from? It comes from large servings of mysticism, that's where. In many circumstances, what people *think* is going on is more important (and certainly more dramatic) than what is actually going on. If I stick a rod in the back of your head and tell you it's a gun, give me your money, the fact that you THINK it's a gun is all that matters, and it WILL control the situation until/unless you know better. That's mysticism too. You know, moving slightly off topic for a moment... I have a large number of martial arts books in my library. Some are written by high rankers; 8th dan, etc. In several of these books, there are various attempts at explanations of how power is derived in the martial arts. One book (The Secrets of Judo by Jiichi Watanabe and Lindy Avakian) has such a good explanation of the physics and the relationship of those physics to the techniques that I think those two have surpassed everyone else by many orders of magnitude. The judo content of the volume is relatively minimal, yet I think you'd do better with this book than *any* other on Judo, assuming you could have only one. Another book, by a master whom I greatly respect (and whose name I will not say here, since I'm about to trash his understanding of physics) contains a long monolog about power, going into how to hit a board, what's (supposedly) happening when you strike the board, etc. His English, and the editing of the volume, are excellent - so there's no possible excuse for the content. It, to put it frankly, is a load of trash. It bears almost no relationship to the actual physics at all. Worse, it's hardly the only one... I would say that a large percentage of martial arts books either do not deal with the issue at all, or they flunk out terribly when it comes down to describing what is really going on. We cannot trust our intuitive thought processes to return us an accurate description of events within OR without; we need analysis, data, study, cross-checking and the more other sciences you can bring in to do your cross checking, the better your results are likely to be in the end. But... how can this be? This master is a profoundly effective martial artist, and I know from personal experience, his breaking technique is faultless. I see it this way. It's just like ki. You can be able to do; like the jump across a chasm I used as an example previously. That does NOT mean that you, despite your excellence in chasm-jumping, have even one clue as to the how and why of the entire experience. People so often make the mistake that an "expert" in something (basketball, for instance) can tell you chapter and verse about that something. I say this is patently not so. There are many who can do, but cannot tell you HOW they do. "Master" martial artists are under a huge stress, though - they are "masters", after all, and the rank and file, not surprisingly, *expect* them to be able to describe any portion of the art right down to the finest, least significant detail. But most cannot. They can do, and/or they can teach YOU to do, but they cannot say why, just like the master describing breaking I talk about in the text above. So what do they do now, and what have they always done? They don't want to make the student lose faith; motivation is key for any long term study (which martial arts most certainly is!) So you get things like mystical explanations... ki... meditation... "inner power"... "centering"... and in some cases the explanations are embroidered so that they do indeed bear on the subject. Centered, for instance, feels similar to the idea that you had darned well better be balanced and keep your weight low for arts like judo and aikido. And it also "feels" right as a description of a calm state of mind where you are highly aware of the condition and distance and motion of your surroundings... a great term. It's a generality that works pretty well, because it has some overlap *and* some specificity. Ki has so much generality that it serves as a "go away and don't bother me, I'm a master and you'll get it some day, now shut up and study" answer, but leaves the student pretty empty of any actual data. I consider myself incredibly fortunate to have been taught for many years by someone who had no problem saying "I don't know. Why don't you see if you can find out, tell me, and then we will both know." He showed me (and many others) how to do the most amazing aerial kicks... and he could not, for the life of him, describe the process *or* tell you in detail what was wrong with yours when you did it wrong. He just couldn't. I can. I'm not nearly the martial artist he is, but I can see what you're doing and I can tell you just where you "left the program". A scientific background and an analytical mind (and about a zillion hours of practice and study) have served me very well in my martial arts teaching efforts. I just don't have much respect for things just because they are there, or because someone says "it is so". I want to know why and how. Some things, ki in particular, have not stood up at all under long years of scrutiny. And I *know*, as my example with the power here lays out, that being a master ranked martial artist, a founder, or the very blinking guru of an art still doesn't mean that you know it all, nor that you can even reliably express what it is you DO know. But that's not to say that you shouldn't try, or that there is any honor in promoting mysticism if you know better. And I DO know better. Ben "30 years of training, 3 languages, several more dans, several arts, and so what, anyway. :)" - --- Ben Blish Mi Kuk Tae Kwon Do Ji Do Kwan - -> bblish@dojang.com [or] - -> bblish@blackbelt.com [or] - -> bblish@glasgow.com [or] - -> 2blkbelt@nemontel.net ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:48:28 EST Subject: the_dojang: Ki and Sensitive New Age Guys Ok...Mike, I'm not expecting to convince you of anything. You have made a decision and there you are...nothing I say or do will change that position. My s/o suggests you read Lewis Thomas' essay on warts. I know Thomas was the head of Sloan-Kettering Cancer Institute and _The Medusa Snail_ is a collection of essays that he wrote and appeared in the NE Journal of Medicine. I also know that he did some exploration of mind-body connection in relation to cancer treatment. But I wanted to make a couple of points. 1. Ki has a similar meaning as Ruach in Hebrew and Spirit in English. It is an energy force, similar to 'breath' or 'wind'. In other words, it is energy in motion. Whether or not that energy is currently measurable is beside the point. I think of it as a driving or motivational force. Think of it this way: for centuries scientists BELIEVED that the world was flat. I suppose it is in some dimensions...but the photos from space show otherwise. Of course I suppose that could be part of a NASA conspiracy. ;-) 2. Mind body connections are supported in a variety of psychological journals. I can not cite references since it's not the type of thing that I read. I do know that people like Rick Pitino and Lou Holtz talk about how a good chunk of succeeding in anything, especially sports, has a lot to do with attitude. Whether that releases specific chemicals to the body or anything else, I don't know. Again, I don't pretend to know the details of physiology...last week's bout of the flu that ran through the household reminded me why I didn't go into nursing or medicine. In short, this stuff is oogie and I would rather be forced to read and pretend to enjoy Shelley at gunpoint than disembowel a frog. (The only good rendetition of Shelley I have ever heard was when the great gonzo defused a highly explosive bomb on the Muppet show. When he got to the schmaltziest of lines: I fall upon the thorns of life, I bleed; the bomb blew.) 3. I get extremely distressed by many of the Newage (rhymes with sewage) scams that are going on in this world. But they have been going on for time eternal and will continue long past the time we have made our marks on this planet. To quote McMurty: "It's like pieces of the true cross, everyone has them." (and for only 39.95 you can have a piece too!) Nonetheless, we have all seen demos from Martial Arts Masters that can not be explained or believed...even though we witnessed them ourselves. We are not perfect, we do not know all there is to know and the human mind is probably the last great fronteir we will ever hope to tame. Maybe all those near death experiences are just the way the mind shuts down, maybe it's really heaven...we won't know until we die and by then, it's too late. So with that, I will bow out of this public fray that I helped to cause. Tang Soo! Karla ------------------------------ From: Date: Tue, 26 Jan 1999 21:45:44 EST Subject: the_dojang: Online Bookstore Hi All, I just finished the latest update on our online book site... over 100 martial arts and related books reviewed! All with links to Amazon.com. Please feel free to drop by and check it out. And much thanks to those who have been sending me copies of books for review. This latest update should contain all of them. http://users.aol.com/taoart/amwa/amwa.htm Let me know what you think! M. Gardner AMWA http://users.aol.com/taoart/amwa/amwa.htm - A Comprehensive Martial Arts and Self Defense website: With an online bookstore, public bulletin board, articles, and over 1000 links. ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Tue, 26 Jan 99 21:37:51 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuk Sool Won History/Chicagoland >Do you know if there are any schools in >the Chicagoland area or do you know where I might try to find that >information? Thanks. Ask and ye shall receive: Kuk Sool of Chicago 10346 S. Western Avenue (312) 238-6222 You could have obtained this information by calling the World Kuk Sool Association in Houston, Texas, or by visiting the official Kuk Sool Won www site via http://www.kuksool.org. ------------------------------ From: burdickd Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 00:33:41 -0500 (EST) Subject: the_dojang: Kukwulwon history Grandmaster Inn-sheuk Pak (In-sok Pak) used to claim that he was co-founder of Kuksulwon and that in fact In-Hyuk Suh was actually the third member of the group who founded the art. The story went that the original two (both hapkido masters) went to Germany for a time and discovered when they got back that Grandmaster Suh had begun claiming that he had founded the art in order to market it more successfully. I have no evidence to support Grandmaster Pak's assertions, except for his vociferousness about the subject. There are old photos showing Pak, Suh, and Joo-bang Lee sitting together around a fire, which probably explains why hapkido, kuksul, and hwarangdo are similar in so many ways. The reason I tend to believe Grandmaster Pak's story is because he was such an accomplished technician that he really didn't need to harp on about Kuksul, and yet he did. He founded several other systems (Kong Shin Hapkido, Tae Keuk Do, and others) in his later years, but in the early 1990s he was back teaching Kuksulwon (apparently NOT with Grandmaster Suh) and was wearing a gold KSW founders uniform identical to the one Grandmaster Suh wore. Anybody know anything else about all this? Yours in the arts, Dakin Burdick burdickd@indiana.edu ------------------------------ From: "Dylan Walsh" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:57 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: This list and histories of Korean MAs. In the past on this mailing list, there has been a lot of divergence with, and criticism of, the histories and lineages put forward by Korean martial artists and governing bodies. To put it more bluntly, various arts claim to go back centuries in Korea, whereas the position of many on this list is that they were derived in the 20th century from Japanese arts, as the indigenous arts had been wiped out. I have noticed posts of the former type of history have gone uncontested lately, so have people moved of the list, or given up? Dylan Walsh dywalsh@indigo.ie ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 06:21:24 PST Subject: the_dojang: Your Family's Personal Safety I was curious how many individuals that don't have spouses or SO's that are in the martial arts; what type of safety and self defense do you teach them, if any? Do you do any type of role playing or tactical simulations in your own home using active and passive techniques say in case a burglar broke in and your family was home alone or an accidental action took place.. Or if they are out and about shopping at night or coming home from school or an exercise class through parking lots? If they are harassed on the telephone.If you were being attacked but they were there watching and in harm's way what do you teach them to do? Would you want them to use deadly force or escape and could they make these decisions if something happened. Jamaica ======================================= I know, I know, it's pretty pathetic when I start answering my own posts but hey, I've been known on occasion to talk to myself so I figured what's the difference. I have a 23 year old non-martial artist son...and while I grew up on the streets of a very large metro-city and belonged to a gang when I was a child; my son grew up in a very protected yuppie environment. I am still figuring out how this could have happened. Our perspectives on life are significantly different and I try to share my experiences with him. Sharing and experiencing are two very different items. He recently purchased a house so we did some very basic things. His house is located in the middle of woods, isolated. We frequently talk about awareness things. We installed those light sensor lights although I must tell you I showed him how easy it would be to get into the house even with them. We changed the locks on his doors. He is able to pick up slight changes in the environment from the time he's at work to the time he comes home which would include variances such as different tire tracks on the ground, etc. And while he is curious about guns and knives at this point in his life I've stayed away from advising him on this. I'm going to let him make up his own mind (for many reasons). I've provided other resources for him to review this items. In the meantime we purchased several baseball bats and keep them strategically placed in his truck and home. I've showed him how to install videocams in his work garage and we've talked about telephone security. I train him on self defense myself and some of his friends and if one of us was being attacked we've worked out what to do...Although I am approximately 1/4 of my sons size I can still get him to duck when I throw a punch... We constantly talk about his friends and girlfriends and associates and things to watch out for - warning signs, drug signs, etc. I've shown him how to be aware of individuals following him, changing his paths to and from work and a wide variety of other awareness techniqeus We've got pertinent phone numbers and speed dialings set up. I've also shared some more detailed tactics with him but that's another story. He's got a beeper, cell phone and him and his girlfriend have walkie talkies.. Because I'm from the city when he was little he traveled with me everywhere. And even today when he frequently goes on trips we discuss lots of issues that crop up as he has to travel into areas that are foreign to him. And from my perspective I'm delighted he's made it safely to legal age where he can now make his own choices. Whew and double whew on that one! Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:04:25 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: This list and histories of Korean MAs. > In the past on this mailing list, there has been a lot of divergence > with, and criticism of, the histories and lineages put forward by Korean > martial artists and governing bodies. To put it more bluntly, various arts > claim to go back centuries in Korea, whereas the position of many on this > list is that they were derived in the 20th century from Japanese arts, as > the indigenous arts had been wiped out. > > I have noticed posts of the former type of history have gone uncontested > lately, so have people moved of the list, or given up? I don't think there is any doubt that most (all?) of the martial arts of Korea fairly recent developments, most being highly influenced by Japan. Taekkyun is probably one mostly pure Korean art, but then it was less art than sport. There are those that will continue to claim that their art is somehow related to a centuries old Korean art, but those claims are highly suspect. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:16:39 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.