From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #54 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Wed, 27 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 054 In this issue: the_dojang: RE: History the_dojang: United Tae Kyon Federation Re: the_dojang: RE: History the_dojang: Re: Ki the_dojang: I'd rather discuss the Great Gonzo than read more of these 30 pag e KI posts the_dojang: Youngest Age Group in the USTU the_dojang: Re: Sparring the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #50 the_dojang: Ki, time to wind it down... the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 the_dojang: The Eyes the_dojang: Re: Kuksulwon History the_dojang: oops the_dojang: What to teach family members the_dojang: Aggressor or Victim the_dojang: The Ki discussion Re: the_dojang: What to teach family members the_dojang: Ho from CO ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:41:00 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: RE: History >>From: "Dylan Walsh" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:14:57 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: This list and histories of Korean MAs. In the past on this mailing list, there has been a lot of divergence with, and criticism of, the histories and lineages put forward by Korean martial artists and governing bodies. To put it more bluntly, various arts claim to go back centuries in Korea, whereas the position of many on this list is that they were derived in the 20th century from Japanese arts, as the indigenous arts had been wiped out. I have noticed posts of the former type of history have gone uncontested lately, so have people moved of the list, or given up? Dylan Walsh dywalsh@indigo.ie << I suppose the position of many on this list is that the Japanese culture and people sprung up out of the ground and the founder of Japan is a sun god. I'm really tired of the ignorance of people who ignore the thousands, yes thousands, of years of Korean history. Much of that before Japan as a culture was in existence or came any where close to the culture and history of China and Korea. Your arguments would indicate that Korea had no martial art history or culture before the Japanese annexation of Korea, or have you all rewritten that little piece of history, or ignored it altogether, or perhaps you'd call the Annexation a friendly visit? I don't doubt that there are Japanese influences in the Korea arts; however, everyone ignores Korea's influence on Japan. For example, there was a strong influx of Baekchae people into Korea. It is accepted history that they did have influence in Japan. Go back further, and you will find archaeological evidence, pottery for example, that shows the Korean influence. Comments on this list indicate that the Korean people had little or no martial arts history and it was all provided by the Japanese. Try studying East Asian history and then look at the most logical flow of development of culture, society, including martial arts, before expousing truths about the history and origins of martial arts. The Koreans, no doubt, stretch the truth. Let's cut the bull and think logically and historically. I read a history of daito ryu aikijutsu last week and surprise, it was all traced to one man, who of course, is a descendant of the sun god. The story is great, until you get to the sun god theory. I don't think Koreans have a monopoly on stretching the truth. Korean martial arts are heavily influenced by Chinese arts. Look at the circular movements and kicks in HKD. You'll see much similarity to Chinese systems. This is obvious when you consider that Korea was for a long period of time, regarded acted as, an extension of China. The Koreans took this and modified and developed techniques, over time, to fit their needs, creating systems unique to Korea. Japan was considered a barbaric nation by both China and Korea. Like it or not, there were obvious interactions between Korea and Japan (warring years, peaceful years, both tending to give influences to both countries). I would think that the flow would be west to east based on the historical development of East Asia. It is only in recent history, recent being the last couple of centuries, that Japan has dominated East Asia. This was not the case for the majority of recorded history. Indigenous arts were not completed wiped out due to the Annexation. No doubt, there is Japanese influence on certain aspects, even styles, of Korean arts. It is incorrect to assume that modern Korean arts are nothing more than derivatives of Japanese systems. ------------------------------ From: "Ron Blanchard" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 09:56:57 PST Subject: the_dojang: United Tae Kyon Federation I was looking through Rays "patch" listed and one particular organization caught my eye. It was "Sean Hawkins, Beacon, NY, United Tae Kyon Federation." Does anyone (Sean are you out there?) know if they teach Tae Kyon and who the founder/s or what lineage is? I was not aware of this art being taugh in upper NY. Thanks. Ron the Lurker > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 10:37:04 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: RE: History > Indigenous arts were not completed wiped out due to the Annexation. > No doubt, there is Japanese influence on certain aspects, even styles, of > Korean arts. It is incorrect to assume that modern Korean arts are nothing > more than derivatives of Japanese systems. This is of course true. Some of the Japanese arts were from Okinawa, some were influenced by China. China and Japan clearly influenced the arts practiced in Korea. Several sources actually claim that the Japanese royal family came from Korea. Some claim that the Chinese and Japanese martial arts originally came from Korea, were then lost in Korea during the Chosun dynasty, and then made their way back. Who knows? But, IMHO it is clearly misleading to say any art has aspects of Korean tribal arts in them, if they existed they are lost to time. It is also false to claim that Taekwondo is 2000 years old. But one way to make a claim like this is similar to what GM Hwang Kee does in his first volume. Martial arts are 2000 years old, Tang Soo Do is a martial arts, therefore TSD is 2000 years old. Ummmm... Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Michael Osier Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:43:10 +0000 ( ) Subject: the_dojang: Re: Ki When replying to a list post, please include your email address so we can reply off list. Unless there is another major misconception, I'm going to take my part of the discussion off list as 1) the arguments are getting redundant, 2) I'd rather discuss a wider range of topics. :) Mike Rowe wrote: > Prove evolution, the Big-Bang, or Creation. These are all theories. > That is a part of the definition of Theory. It is not provable yet, > just highly possible, more so than a hypothesis. When it is proven it > then becomes a Law - Law of Gravity not the Theory of Gravity. Actually, science doesn't claim to "prove" anything, only disprove. Nothing can be proven absolutely true. The difference in terms you note is a difference in degree of confidence (due to reproduceability, weighing of evidence for and against, etc). - ------------------------------ David Steffen wrote: > Well, science is A) hard to understand, B) harder to do properly and > C) central to our modern society. People tend to put a lot of blind > faith in things that sound scientific. (Lousy science reporting in > the press doesn't help much either.) So, if you're trying to sell > something, and can come up with some scientific-sounding stuff to > back up your claims, it tends to sell product... Science can be difficult to understand at deeper levels, but it's principles are quite simple and powerful. The scientific method, curiousity, and skepticism just aren't ingrained in our educational system. Basic highschool concepts that should be taught, and that anyone can understand and use in everyday life, but aren't getting across. - ------------------------------ Karla wrote: > Whether that releases specific chemicals to the body or anything else, > I don't know. Again, I don't pretend to know the details of > physiology...last week's Aren't you curious to know why? Don't you want to find the answers? If not, why do MA at all? Part of being a MAist is to seek the truth and the nature of the world around us. > 3. I get extremely distressed by many of the Newage (rhymes with > sewage) scams that are going on in this world. But they have been > going on for time eternal and will continue long past the time we have > made our marks on this All the more reason to be vigilantly aware and cautious. > Nonetheless, we have all seen demos from Martial Arts Masters that can > not be explained or believed. Just because we don't have the answers immediately is not a reason to give up. When you started MA, did you have a technique that troubled you? Did you give up on it? Just because we can't explain something doesn't mean we should give up trying by tossing it in that box labelled "Ki". Michael - ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Michael Osier = michael.osier@yale.edu | "He is not well rounded who does http://chloe.hgs.yale.edu/~og/ | not have an equally keen interest BS Biochemical Science - UVM | in all of the things within the Yale University | compass of painting." Human Genetics - Og | Leonardo da Vinci ------------------------------ From: Greg Giddins Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:45:24 -0700 Subject: the_dojang: I'd rather discuss the Great Gonzo than read more of these 30 pag e KI posts Ask a Chinese master how to break a stack of twenty 4-inch boards: "You focus your KI in your tanden, center yourself to establish a link with the ground , move your KI to a point 2 feet above your head, bring down your hand at the same time directing your KI through the boards, and down to the earth to channel it back to your feet and back into your tanden again." (translated: karate chop the boards damn hard) Ask a scientist the same thing: Using rotational dynamics of your shoulder along with the lever of your elbow, multiplied by the useable mass of your trunk, you must dynamically arrange your component parts so as to bring your striking surface to a velocity that will disrupt the material of the boards to a sufficent degree that the integrity of the wood is absolutely compromised. (translation: karate chop the boards damn hard) Greg Giddins ggiddins@ossinc.net If you are living like there is no God, you'd better be right. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:40:43 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Youngest Age Group in the USTU What is the youngest age group catagorey in both forms and sparring in the USTU? Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Ernest Hart Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:53:27 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Sparring > It has been my experience that it is difficult for black belts to do > two or more different styles of sparring in TKD. Nearly impossible for > lower ranks. Does this jibe with what others have experienced?<< > Not really. > *If* they are brought up with different styles from the beginning. > I have usually ended up in schools where beginners are taught no contact > sparring, then gradually move up to heavier contact as they advance. And Sorry for the confusion. I meant two different sets of rules, like Karate point-sparring and Olympic TKD. > We've always used sparring as an opportunity to teach a lower ranking > student the dynamics of fighting, and I've found that people don't learn > very well when being slammed around by a gung-ho upperbelt trying to prove > his superiority. I agree with you, but am going to pick nits here. Being slammed around does teach you basics of fighting. "I'm most likely going to get hit, and it's going to hurt." I still believe that your premise above is sound. Perhaps we should differentiate between fighting and sparring more carefully. BTW, anyone caught "pounding" on a lower belt/smaller person in my club is in for a serious "discussion". We also use the "spar to the lower rank/weight" safety rule. > But me, I would take a forms class over a sparring class any day. And I > have a better time shadow sparring an orange belt than kicking around > another black belt. I think that forms and sparring are both very valuable, but teach different lessons. On the surface, competition in sparring is against an opponent, and competition in forms is against yourself. I suspect that at the elite level of sparring, this is not as true. Of course, I wouldn't know. E. Hart Burlington, VT ehart@zoo.uvm.edu ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:14:00 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #50 <<>> measureable<-- energy at hand? Problem w/ "ki" is that there are so many different definitions of it. We can compare Tohei's practicality with the charletanism of the types of persons mentioned above, but the arguement seems to be simply between definitions. Someone says "ki" is magic, another that it is simply a term to describe the reality of physics. Some use "ki" to refer to a mystical, supposedly unexplainable strength, others use the term to disguise their phsychological (not paranormal) control over others. Scientists the world over, not just here in the boring, un-spiritual (hmph!) west use specific steps to arive at their proofs, depending on much more than a simple "sunlight is, therefore, ki must be--I feel it, after all, and want it to be so!". This is why our human race has an understanding of electricity (radiation, etc.) and biology. - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:28:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Ki, time to wind it down... Time to wind down the Ki discussion. A few more posts if you must, but then please take it offline. Maybe Dave S. would like this thread moved over to his physics list? :) Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: "John Groff" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:49:07 -0800 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 >>I have noticed posts of the former type of history have gone uncontested lately, so have people moved of the list, or given up?<< Give us time. . .many of us simply have to find the time. . . - --C.J. ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 12:53:22 PST Subject: the_dojang: The Eyes A couple of days ago I watched Texas Walker with a few aspiring martial artists. During the show an instructor was teaching his student how to fight in a tournament. He said, "watch the eyes." Opponents always open their eyes before they strike. This is a two part question: First I don't know if that's any kind of universal truth or not so would be interested, and second; one of the students asked, well even if that is true then how would that apply in a case of multiple attackers/opponents. Which of course led to more discussion on telegraphing. Any and all input is always appreciated. Thanks. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Steven Gilmore Date: Wed, 27 Jan 99 14:57:16 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Kuksulwon History >Grandmaster Inn-sheuk Pak (In-sok Pak) used to claim that he was >co-founder of Kuksulwon... Anybody >know anything else about all this? > >Yours in the arts, > >Dakin Burdick >burdickd@indiana.edu Interesting story, Dakin. No, I have never heard this before. No, I've never heard of Inn-sheuk Pak. No, the above two statements don't really mean anything, because I am nobody and there are lots of things I have never heard of. Sincerely, Steven Gilmore San Antonio, TX ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:05:16 EST Subject: the_dojang: oops A quick correction on my post. The book is _The Medusa and the Snail_ by Lewis Thomas. I'm still getting used to this newfangled laptop with the touch pad right underneath where I normally rest my thumbs. I find I keep inserting and deleting things without realizing it because that *!$#(@! touch pad has done it's thing. I can't wait to get to the store tomorrow for that keyboard adapter so I can use a *real* (tm) keyboard again. *sigh* Tang Soo Karla ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 16:13:38 EST Subject: the_dojang: What to teach family members Jamacia asked: >I was curious how many individuals that don't have spouses or SO's that >are in the martial arts; what type of safety and self defense do you >teach them, if any? I learn from my sons (both of whom rank their good ole' mom) and my s/o did take a year of Judo long before he met me. My step daughter; however, was being harassed by a bully last year. When the bully began to physically pull stunts (tripping her, stepping on the back of her shoes on the staircase, etc.), I taught her how to take someone down and make it look like an accident. I have also taught her a couple of basic self-defense moves (breaking a grab, elbow strike to the jaw and spear hand to the family jewels) in case she is assaulted in that manner. I have not taught her a lot, hopefully enough to get her interested in the martial arts. She is currently attending an Asian-model charter school that starts each day with 15 minutes of Tai Chi. Her younger brother attended a Tae Kwon Do school that fell into what Ray described so aptly as a Take my dough school. His mom signed him up for a six month contract and he stopped going after a month. He wants to study with his brothers (my kids) and we are in the process of investigating options that would allow the three of them to train together and hope to have something in place for the boys by the summer time. (Ain't blended families and step- parenting fun? ; ) ) Who knows, maybe I can convince my step daughter to study with us if I go back too....it might be worth holding out another month or so.....hmmmm.... Tang Soo! Karla ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 13:36:35 PST Subject: the_dojang: Aggressor or Victim Just a quick question. Has anyone ever come upon a fight and you were all ready to jump in and help and then you realized you really weren't sure who the aggressor was and who was the victim. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Eduardo Miranda Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 19:56:17 -0200 Subject: the_dojang: The Ki discussion I am not a scientist neither a heiki expert, I haven't extensive studied this subject, but I'd like to give my opinion: Scientist are usually sceptic about issues they can't prove, but along the centuries many "crazy" theories became accepted despite the scientist sarcasm and prejudice. In the same way many scientifically _controlled experiences turn out to be frauds or untruth. My point is: Just because you prove it doesn't mean it does not exist. Energy flow in the humam body is a key concept to oriental medecine, culture and philosophy, therefore you are saying that asian are pretty stupid when it comes to medecine, culture and philosophy. You guys problably think the only quality they have is martial techniques. PS: Tricky question for the sceptics: Don't you belive in God? Is there any scientific study proving God existence? I don't think so... Eduardo Miranda dudamir@uol.com.br ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 14:11:36 -0800 (PST) Subject: Re: the_dojang: What to teach family members > Her younger brother attended a Tae Kwon Do school that fell into what Ray > described so aptly as a Take my dough school. I can't claim that one. A great one, but not my original idea (wish it was :). Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ From: Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 15:39:40 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: Ho from CO Hello from Colorado. Ray Terry raymail@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #54 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.