From: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To: the_dojang-digest@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Subject: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #56 Reply-To: the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Errors-To: the_dojang-owner@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Precedence: The_Dojang-Digest Thurs, 28 Jan 1999 Vol 06 : Num 056 In this issue: the_dojang: Coach Lee's tape the_dojang: Re: jewelry, make-up, etc the_dojang: Re: Korean MA History the_dojang: Re: ki/religion the_dojang: Making your art street effective the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 the_dojang: Re:History of the Martial Arts BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from ["Alexander, Stephen" (fwd) the_dojang: MA history the_dojang: . ......................................................................... The_Dojang, serving the Internet since June 1994. ~800 members strong! Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, California Taekwondo, Martial Arts Resource To send e-mail to this list use the_dojang@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com To unsubscribe, send "unsubscribe the_dojang-digest" (no quotes) in the body of an e-mail (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com Replying to this message will NOT unsubscribe you. See the Korean Martial Arts (KMA) FAQ and online search the last two years worth of digest issues at http://www.MartialArtsResource.com Pil Seung! Ray Terry, PO Box 110841, Campbell, CA 95011 KMA@MartialArtsResource.com ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:32:07 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Coach Lee's tape I just finished (finally) watching the tape by Coach Lee. I thought that this was a great tape for beginners and even those looking to improve their techniques. My main purpose of getting it was to look at some of the training tips to help my competition performance. I was surprised how educational it was. Though I knew most of the techniqes, some of the tips in their help me improve them. I would recommend any who is just starting TKD and even those who wish to improve their skills to purchase this. Even if the improvement to your techniques is minimal, it is well worth the investment. I am looking forward to the new tapes. Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:25:40 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: jewelry, make-up, etc someone wrote: << Then there is jewelry. I was always taught never ever never to wear jewelry. Then I began noticing an increase at tournaments and in the schools where people would wear gold necklaces (men and women), gold hoop earring, tons of makeup, etc. I was always taught it was a safety issue not to wear rings, necklaces and hoop earrings >> then mary responded: <> mary, hey, at least your toenails and fingernails dont clash ;). the only time i ever have an issue with something along these lines, is when it could be a safety issue. i asked someone last night to remove some big ole hoop earrings. i dont believe that jewelry should be allowed, unless it is a wedding band. if someone chooses to take that off, that is their prerogative. i would never ask anyone to do so, though. those big ole diamond engagement rings can be harmful, however. my gm also requires that finger/toe nails are trimmed short and not ragged. this is for the hopefully obvious reason that we dont want to be a bunch of slashers. i was guilty of that on one neglectful occasion and scratched someone with an openhanded down block while sparring. those people who come in with fashion fingernails have to understand that they will not be allowed to spar. after all "you could poke an eye out with those things!" ;). perfume, make-up (as long as yer not goin for the tammy faye look), nail polish.... a non-issue. it's not a safety problem and will most likely not be distracting to others. melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Dylan Walsh" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 16:34:15 -0000 Subject: the_dojang: Re: Korean MA History >From: Chuck Sears >Date: Wed, 27 Jan 1999 20:38:03 -0600 >Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #54 >There are statues and drawings and writings in old Korean temples, showing people in martial arts >poses, that have been reliably dated back to the third century, so there is some justification in >the claim. Just to clear this up: Nobody has claimed that the Koreans never had their own MAs. What is being argued is that the current 20th century arts can't claim descent from those arts, because those arts were lost. >There is also justification in the claim of Japanese influence, due to the way they >killed off Korean martial artists during the occupation of the first part of this century. >One of the reasons that Grand Master H. U. Lee founded the Songahm style of Taekwondo was to return >to the Korean roots. The forms bear no resemblance whatsoever to Japanese styles and they emphasize >kicking from white belt onward. The style is very traditional and follows several modern-day >interpretations of the old code of honor of the Hwarang-do. Making changes to TKD is synthesizing a new art or style of TKD. You say traditional, so what traditional art is it being based on? Let say it is Taekyon, then you are making a hybrid of TKD and Taekyon. Traditional TKD would either be like Shotokan, or depending on your perspective possibly ITF (if you regard Gen. Choi as the founder of TKD). Dylan Walsh. dywalsh@indigo.ie ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:33:29 EST Subject: the_dojang: Re: ki/religion <> hey now, i thought we agreed...no religious discussion...heehee. ;). just kidding. and i second the thoughts on great gonzo over ki. i know what ki means to me and that is all that is important for me as an individual. so....who wants to start the great gonzo debate, eh? melinda chunjido@aol.com ------------------------------ From: "Jamaica Power" Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 09:19:18 PST Subject: the_dojang: Making your art street effective What other things can a person do, etc, that will help make their art more street oriented. WITHOUT changing their style too much. Alain - ----------------------------------------------- Just to start I've seen some schools introduce self-defense basics into their classes like some beginning hapkido etc. but as add-on's or fillers or "something different" day. It does not become a regular part of the class. By the time they teach it again everyone has forgotten what was taught. This diminishes the seriousness of it and the ability to get efficient at it and understand what it is. I'm not sure having these types of courses as a sometime adjunct to the class helps or hurts the martial arts practitioner. Additionally when these classes are taught there is sometimes a beginning uneasiness and a level of not being comfortable and a few giggles come out. This is certainly understandable and releases tension and eliminates some fear of the unknown. But what I've also seen from this is a definite destruction of seriousness when teaching street techniques. I've seen nervous giggles overtime escalate into fullblown "giggleshits." This means that everytime certain men or women do throws or do self defense against one another they have a propensity to turn it into a sexual encounter or mating ritual. For those that are trying to be more serious this is distracting. For the younger children this is misleading. This could be because it is not a standard part of the curriculum and so the understanding isn't there. When the instructor supports this behavior, I think this again diminishes the effectiveness of the training and what this is really all about. Jamaica jamaica_power@hotmail.com ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ From: Paul Rogers Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:32:52 -0600 Subject: the_dojang: Re: The_Dojang-Digest V6 #53 Ben Blish wrote: >>> >>Ben wrote: >>My old ji do kwan and hap ki do master, 8th dan >>at the time, said that "ki is for ha-la-la", by which he meant that it was for >>the idiots, or the handicapped. Unkind, but pretty darned clear. >This statement piques my curiosity, given what I've read about the meaning >of the term Hapkido. How would you or your former master define the ki in >Hapkido? Why would Morihei Ueshiba, Yang Lu Chan, Sokaku Takeda, Choi Young >Sool (sp?), et al, incorporate the term in naming their art if that term was >meaningless? Master Lim said that: "...everything needs a name. Tae Kwon Do is a name. Ji Do Kwan is a name" (the latter means "way of wisdom school", more or less.) I agree, and that's pretty much it for me. Invoking names of great martial artists inspires me not at all to believe that ki is anything more than Asian mysticism. Which is not to say they're not still great martial artists. You can't make an effective case to me that "because a bunch of high profile, respected people say so, it IS so." <<< That wasn't my intent. The reason I invoked those names is because they were all notable and influential folks in their respective arts, and yet they all included the term ki/chi in the name of their art. Perhaps they were just giving a nod to their respective cultures' historical perception of ki/chi >>>When one has been trying - for years, more than likely - to "get" a pattern, or develop a sense of calm that can be called into play on demand, and for all those years have experienced only incremental advances, if any, and then one day, for whatever reason, we "get it right", I think that experience is an enormously powerful event and something that affects the present state of mind to a large extent. It's difficult to describe, and it is certainly a very complex reaction - the more so when experienced *though* a controlled sense of calm and extremely accurate physical orientation - and it is my present opinion, based on my own experiences here as well as the observation of many others, that this is a wonderful thing, but not, in any way, a mystical thing. Not everyone is well able to "reach inside" and describe what it is they feel; they may not have the words, or they may simply be so overwhelmed by the experience(s) that they are unable to categorize what it is they are/were feeling. So be it. Still, there is no reason at all that I have ever encountered to assign the mystical to any part of the event or to the gestalt itself.<<< Fair enough. I guess that if "everything needs a name", and the result that you describe (and for which I practice) occurs, then calling it "feeling the Ki" or naming it in scientific terms is, imho, irrelevant. Since I'm congenitally lazy and scientifically uninformed, I'd probably just go with "I felt the chi!" 8?) >>>One book (The Secrets of Judo by Jiichi Watanabe and Lindy Avakian) has such a good explanation of the physics and the relationship of those physics to the techniques that I think those two have surpassed everyone else by many orders of magnitude.<<< Thanks for the reference, I'll have to have a read. >>>There are many who can do, but cannot tell you HOW they do. "Master" martial artists are under a huge stress, though - they are "masters", after all, and the rank and file, not surprisingly, *expect* them to be able to describe any portion of the art right down to the finest, least significant detail. But most cannot. They can do, and/or they can teach YOU to do, but they cannot say why, just like the master describing breaking I talk about in the text above. So what do they do now, and what have they always done? They don't want to make the student lose faith; motivation is key for any long term study (which martial arts most certainly is!) So you get things like mystical explanations... ki... meditation... "inner power"... "centering"... and in some cases the explanations are embroidered so that they do indeed bear on the subject.<<< Hey, whatever works. If the 'master' can properly demonstrate the form, and I can practice it, and eventually receive the same physical/psychological/spiritual benefits, then is it any worse than if the person had explained the same techniques in terms of force vectors, moments of inertia, and synaptic responses, or whatever? Now, if you're saying that by describing things scientifically, you achieve more efficacy in developing the same revelatory feelings as the mystical method, then that's a strong motivator to learn the terms and work on it from that angle. I believe we at least agree that it's the results that count, yes? Thanks for a very convincing and eloquent response to my questions. Paul Rogers, Round Rock, TX ------------------------------ From: John Hancock <4karate@bellsouth.net> Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:59:39 -0500 Subject: the_dojang: Re:History of the Martial Arts > From: "Jamaica Power" > Subject: the_dojang: Questions for the Historians > > I've seen that some of the authors on this forum have either written a > thesis or a book or published a paper. Guilty as charged. :-) > I am very curious as to what inspired you to study and collect martial > arts history? > I became interested in Martial Art history because I wanted to know everything there was to know about the art/arts I was attempting to perfect. > And is it just martial arts history that intrigues you or do you seek > out the same veracity bout your own roots. > Boy. You nailed that one. I originally was looking for the roots of my art....but as I became more educated and delved deeper into the art...I also realized I would have to have a working knowledge (at least rudimentary) of the history and culture of the nations from which these arts came. That opened up whole new areas for me...and with each turn of serendipity, I found other things that captured my attention and held my interest. Before long, I was reading books on history that had no mention of martial arts in them. Which was a real breakthrough. After digesting much of this info, much of the information I had previously learned through MA sources became clearly incorrect. So I began to look at those sources and realized quickly, they themselves had little more understanding of the arts and the history in general than I did. This made me wake up and stop seeing these "Masters" as awe inspiring pillars of wisdom. I soon realized, they theorized much that they spoke about as if it was factual. I no longer was afraid to challenge their knowledge on the subject....and that sort of made me a bad fellow (oooooooohhhhh). But, over the course of a few years making statements and talking about some of the inconsistencies and discrepancies I had found, I began to gain some respect as an expert on the subject (and now that just cracks me up to no end as I know how little I actually do know...hahaha). It hasn't been easy, mind you. WHile I did live and train in Korea for a while, the bulk of my time there was absorbing as much technique as I could in a short period of time. The majority of my life, I have lived in areas that are devoid of resouces on the subjects on which I found interest. I have been left to the whim of fate in finding books and videos, but mostly limited by the income I could produce. Even today...income is the biggest barrier I face in my continued studies. However, there just isn't any schools around that offer studies in asian languages, history and culture. True...the University of Louisville now does offer a few courses in Chinese History and Language. But...once again...money and time get in my way here. I simply cannot afford either on a subject that I cannot immediately turn into a viable skill for further income production. (sigh). And, at this juncture, I am moving again...and at that...to an area once again devoid of resources. Hopefully I can re-enter college in the Fall of this year to pursue my Masters, however, my degree work...along with the necessity of making a living...will most likely leave little room for Martial Arts and MA History again. (sigh). > If it is just the martial arts then what fascinated you and prompted you > to study only this field and to share with others. Thanks. Now this does bring up an interesting point. Sharing. I have always freely shared what I have discovered or learned. I have noticed...this isn't the case with many others. This has caused me to re-think my position here and realize that I can't continue to do this if I want to continue my own studies. I have to get something back. So....I don't give away my work anymore. The rub is...I have to develop a National reputation as an expert before I can demand payment for my time lecturing on the subjects....but to do that...I have to lecture on the subjects to gain the reputation. Sadly, getting published in the MA media is both difficult (unless you are a tournament champion) and poorly compensated. The MA media in general pays writers a wage ridiculously below the standard for freelance writers. I guess the problem is....they can't generate the readership. I was told by one editor...all these magazines (Journal of Asian Martial Arts excluded) are written for a 14 year old reader. Much of the work I do is well beyond that lever...ergo...it isn't attractive to the magazine. (sigh). Personally, I wish I could convince one of these large magazines to relocate to a place like Kentucky. Where the economy wouldn't demand so much of their income base and would give them a wider profit margin. I mean...after all....there is no rule that you MUST be in California to publish a magazine (Look at TKD Times...they are in Iowa). The reason a lot of new MA Magazines don't make it is costs overuns and a lack of wide distribution. But...I think magazines like Inside Karate and Black Belt would actually find it to their advantage to relocate to a place like Kentucky...espescially West Kentucky...where land is dirt cheap, the economy inexpensive and the folks friendly. BUt maybe I'm just bias...afterall....I'm a West Kentuckian. Well...they have a saying here...."you can't transplant a Kentuckian. They won't grow no where else." Hope this helps Jamaica. John Hancock ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:28:57 -0800 (PST) Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from ["Alexander, Stephen" (fwd) You are subscribed as alexanders@norandaforest.com. Please correct. Ray - -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Forwarded message: Subject: BOUNCE the_dojang: Non-member submission from ["Alexander, Stephen" ] From: "Alexander, Stephen" Subject: Jewellery, Makeup and toenail polish... Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 13:48:25 -0500 Mary wrote: >>Well, this has been on my mind since it was posted...I can't quit thinking about it so I am going to ask for opinions. I like to think that I am always very careful to follow the "rules" in regard to respect and proper conduct...however I do wear makeup (but not a lot) to class as well as matching toe nail and finger nail polish. (OK and occasionally a little perfume) I have often wondered if this is considered inappropriate.<< I don't know, I think if your not sweating enough to make the makeup run right off your face, then you ain't working hard enough!! As far as perfume, again, if your sweaty, perfume won't help you none. Rings on the fingers?? down right dangerous when doing partner work, or sparring. Chains and earrings? .. Well, again, dangerous in my opinion. A hoop could get caught somehow on your partners hand or the like and then, owwww, they pull it right through the ear lobe. Chains make a nice mark on your neck if they get caught and tugged. Also the will take you off balance if it get caught and the chain doesn't break right away. Personally I think that simply from a safety standpoint one should refrain from wearing jewellery during training or competition. Now, as far as the colour co-ordinated fingers and toes goes... Well, I'd let that one slide FWIW Steve Alexander Toronto To win 100 victories in 100 battles is not the highest skill. To subdue the enemy without fighting is the highest skill. Sun Tzu. ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 14:35:25 EST Subject: the_dojang: MA history Jamaica asked:<> I enjoy studying martial arts history because it helps me put things into perspective. I try to put together lineages so that I know where I stand from those who came before me. Sort of like all of the genealogical studies done shortly after "Roots" was first broadcast. Also, I think knowing history makes for a well-rounded martial artist. As far as studying all of history, I am interested in US Legal history-my wife (who is working on her Ph.D. in History) and I argue...I mean, discuss constitutional issues. Take Care, Peter M. P.S. Alain-have you taken Con Law? ------------------------------ From: Date: Thu, 28 Jan 1999 11:48:34 -0800 (PST) Subject: the_dojang: . ------------------------------ End of The_Dojang-Digest V6 #56 ******************************* Support the USTU by joining today! US Taekwondo Union, 1 Olympic Plaza, Ste 405, Colorado Spgs, CO 80909 719-578-4632 FAX 719-578-4642 ustutkd1@aol.com http://www.ustu.com --------------------------------------------------------------------- To unsubscribe from this digest, the_dojang-digest, send the command: unsubscribe the_dojang-digest -or- unsubscribe the_dojang-digest your.old@address in the BODY of email (top line, left justified) addressed to majordomo@hpwsrt.cup.hp.com. Old digest issues are available via ftp://ftp.martialartsresource.com, in pub/the_dojang/digests. All digest files have the suffix '.txt' Copyright 1994-99: Ray Terry, Martial Arts Resource, California Taekwondo Standard disclaimers apply.